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Sorry, I didn't know insults are only allowed to be a one way street here.
Insults go both ways on this site. Light profanity is accepted by most but not recommended.
The guys you are boxing with are Real Engine Builders and have a pretty good sense of humor.
So... Carry on and speak your thoughts!
I've got over 10 years of full-time machining, engine building, dyno testing under my belt before transitioning into the OEM community & never actually stopped with engines since then. Still spend some nights & weekends in a shop or a dyno cell.
I've got over 10 years of full-time machining, engine building, dyno testing under my belt before transitioning into the OEM community & never actually stopped with engines since then. Still spend some nights & weekends in a shop or a dyno cell.
Spec on these 900+Hp build please. Do you have a video wih the dyno sheet.
Here’s a fact that will get some panties in a bunch.
no girdle for an Olds, even the best of the best 5 main that has integrated caps, or the three main style that are connected across the tops that are using billet caps and have kept the Big Block together at well over 1000hp were designed using FE analysis….none, zilch.
I know it’s sounds crazy…or even that no Olds block ever having gone through any FE analysis to expose its weak areas…never happened and probably never will.
Here’s a fact that will get some panties in a bunch.
no girdle for an Olds, even the best of the best 5 main that has integrated caps, or the three main style that are connected across the tops that are using billet caps and have kept the Big Block together at well over 1000hp were designed using FE analysis….none, zilch.
I know it’s sounds crazy…or even that no Olds block ever having gone through any FE analysis to expose its weak areas…never happened and probably never will.
So what do we do know?
you say that you got lucky, which does happen sometimes, and you keep going until it doesn't work anymore.
you say that you got lucky, which does happen sometimes, and you keep going until it doesn't work anymore.
not just me..every single person who has ever worked on an Olds, past present and future will never use FEA on any girdle support they make or use.
That’s just a fact when working on old blocks that we are stuck with . I know that because I’ve discussed designs with those who make them..I’ve used most designs and have three styles here in front of me…the full steel three billet main cap which are side bolted and pan railed.. and the over top aluminum pan rail type. And my own design which incorporates a crank scraper tied into the pan rail.
You can throw every engineering term at them you want…FEA will never happen and neither will any other ..It’s basic hardware clamping force and structural rigidity.
FWIW, when Frank tore my last one down after it ate a valve, he said the caps still showed signs of walking around with the J&S 5 main halo installed, after about 12,500 miles. Did they walk LESS? I don't know. It went back in the current engine that is basically the same but with different heads, cam, intake, and carb. The crank and rods were reused in a different block with the same, but new, pistons.
are you using a front plate or factory style motor mounts?
You may not but that does not stop NHRA Stock Eliminator Racers from doing it and it seems to work okay for them. For decades there were no special aftermarket blocks legal for Oldsmobiles in that General class and they're not exploding all over the place all the time.
The bulkheads are the weak point in the block......
what’s this “General” class?
there were no aftermarket blocks but there were after billet caps and hardware.
do you have any examples or personal experience,, sounds like you do.
how do you know, or find out the bulkheads were the weak point,, FEA?
3.700" bore x 4.160" stroke, 8,000 peak RPM, 2,000 mile Baja 2000 winner in Trophy Truck class. Stock truck crank, Carillo rods, Cosworth pistons, "rubbed core" block, 1045 steel caps, stock bolts re-heat treated to 55 Kn, raised-port 32-valve heads, titanium valves, stock hewd bolts, knife-edged combustion sealing rings (same as BMW F1 4-cyl 1500 hp/98 cid) 5-stage dry sump, billet chain tensioner arms, polished chains, and something else for you to argue about and not believe even though it's true: Glacier-Vandervell bearings, clearances set to .0015" mains, .0009" rods.
That's very cool build thanks for sharing.
How does the above engine have anything in common with our 1965 to 1975 dinosaur family sedan blocks. The engines were never engineered for the motor sports world.
The engines and parts for our engines will never see FE analysis, How much does such testing cost?
That's very cool build thanks for sharing.
How does the above engine have anything in common with our 1965 to 1975 dinosaur family sedan blocks. The engines were never engineered for the motor sports world.
The engines and parts for our engines will never see FE analysis, How much does such testing cost?
Going back to the original point, this one has had analysis and verification testing done to prove that everything does what it was supposed to do. The family Sudan block that you're talking about, and more specifically the subject of the Halo girdle, has not had any validation testing to prove anything. That's the point, none of you know whether it actually does or does not work but you want it to so you made yourself feel like it does and then that became your belief.
not just me..every single person who has ever worked on an Olds, past present and future will never use FEA on any girdle support they make or use.
That’s just a fact when working on old blocks that we are stuck with . I know that because I’ve discussed designs with those who make them..I’ve used most designs and have three styles here in front of me…the full steel three billet main cap which are side bolted and pan railed.. and the over top aluminum pan rail type. And my own design which incorporates a crank scraper tied into the pan rail.
You can throw every engineering term at them you want…FEA will never happen and neither will any other ..It’s basic hardware clamping force and structural rigidity.
Spec on these 900+Hp build please. Do you have a video wih the dyno sheet.
Tried to post a video on blower engine but format is incompatible with this site. Customer has the sheets for that one. 1223 HP.
I have data for the NA engine & I can post it next time I'm at my shop, if you are actually interested. 810-ish HP.
RW, are you just here to blow your own horn? Are you building an Olds engine? This is an Oldsmobile forum, after all. Or, Are you velcro shoe's new screen name?
There's a certain amount of arrogance tolerated with extreme talent in any given field of expertise, but being combative and condescending isn't necessarily.
[QUOTE=fleming442;1451575, but being combative and condescending isn't necessarily.[/QUOTE]
I agree, so maybe you should broaden the range of who you are directing that comment towards. I treat like I am being treated.
My point is and has been halo girdles are not a for-sure and properly designed cranks will give better results. And, I gave some background on where I am coming from when I say that.
How we got to where we are now is something you should take up with a couple of other "contributors" in this thread.
My point is the same as CANADIANOLDS', the halo on an Oldsmobile has been debated for the past 20 years, and not one builder or peddler of wares has provided any back to back data, whether it be performance or durability. The simple "imagineering" of physics is there, and that's about it. You are correct about the lack of analysis.
My point is the same as CANADIANOLDS', the halo on an Oldsmobile has been debated for the past 20 years, and not one builder or peddler of wares has provided any back to back data, whether it be performance or durability. The simple "imagineering" of physics is there, and that's about it. You are correct about the lack of analysis.
Now we are starting to agree. It may help, it may hurt, nobody knows for sure either way.
Halos on an Oldsmobile are like religion; you either believe or you don't.
Pretty much.
A Bryant crank and a good elastomer damper that has enough mass to allow it to work well are a bit less mystical but the gate fee is hard for some to accept.
That's very cool build thanks for sharing.
How does the above engine have anything in common with our 1965 to 1975 dinosaur family sedan blocks. The engines were never engineered for the motor sports world.
The engines and parts for our engines will never see FE analysis, How much does such testing cost?
A few were made for the motor sports world. Oldsmobile redesign around a DX block. Beefing up the bottom end. Added oil passage in rear of block. Some for HP block for NASCAR and others for drag racing. This one is getting a SBO Bryant crank. And lightweight rods and pistons. Large diameter roller lifters.
One would think Oldsmobile did some engineering into this block.
Head flow is more of a limiting factor as far as power goes.
What should HP be from 427 CID, 13.3:1 CR with a 248° @ .050" / .640" lift hydraulic cam and no port modifications allowed?
Do you have a close example to compare? If you do please post those specs and dyno sheet.
Ya that's about what were doing Hp wise with 11.5 comp, 246 hyd roller and OEM intakes. BUT that was 7 yrs ago and since we have our own head casting for LS in either NA or forced induction, as well as SBc, Now working with the Gen III hemi guys.
Going back to the original point, this one has had analysis and verification testing done to prove that everything does what it was supposed to do. The family Sudan block that you're talking about, and more specifically the subject of the Halo girdle, has not had any validation testing to prove anything. That's the point, none of you know whether it actually does or does not work but you want it to so you made yourself feel like it does and then that became your belief.
Originally Posted by RW Tech
You don't know what NHRA stock Eliminator is?
its not called general class. I’ve done work on stock eliminator engines, so ya I know what it is.
you still haven’t given any specifics on what your contribution was in that truck build..why not?
you talk a good game though. Here’s a heads up on your FEA critic of the halo, and any other part for the Olds that has and never will go through your expectations.
every single Olds block is different, not just a little…every main cap is different, even on the same block as they are sand cast and have wide variances . The bulkheads are not machined, they are cast with thickness that are no where near consistent.
to do a proper FEA on just one block, and it couldn’t be used as a basis for any other block, it would need to be digitized, the areas where you couldn’t do that, would need to be guessed at . Internal passages and casting thickness would need to be guessed.
doing an FE analysis on a previously cast block from the 60’s is near impossible and would require guesstimates. So the block itself can’t be fully analyzed to take advantage of what FEA is used for…which is NEW designs, like that Ford , where from day one an FEA was used to put metal where required and eliminate where not needed.
so that’s a no on the block and a no for any type of cap support that would get into FEA.
its not called general class. I’ve done work on stock eliminator engines, so ya I know what it is.
you still haven’t given any specifics on what your contribution was in that truck build..why not?
you talk a good game though. Here’s a heads up on your FEA critic of the halo, and any other part for the Olds that has and never will go through your expectations.
every single Olds block is different, not just a little…every main cap is different, even on the same block as they are sand cast and have wide variances . The bulkheads are not machined, they are cast with thickness that are no where near consistent.
to do a proper FEA on just one block, and it couldn’t be used as a basis for any other block, it would need to be digitized, the areas where you couldn’t do that, would need to be guessed at . Internal passages and casting thickness would need to be guessed.
doing an FE analysis on a previously cast block from the 60’s is near impossible and would require guesstimates. So the block itself can’t be fully analyzed to take advantage of what FEA is used for…which is NEW designs, like that Ford , where from day one an FEA was used to put metal where required and eliminate where not needed.
so that’s a no on the block and a no for any type of cap support that would get into FEA.
welcome to reality.
Stock Eliminator is a general class,, with specific classes under it.. And yes I did give specifics of the truck combination and my part in it.
In an indirect way you are agreeing that the effects of using a halo girdle are not quantified, so back to you with "welcome to reality".
Pretty much.
A Bryant crank and a good elastomer damper that has enough mass to allow it to work well are a bit less mystical but the gate fee is hard for some to accept.
What a moron. Nobody here is saying they would use a halo over an aftermarket crank.
anyone using an aftermarket crank is past the halo stage. You are into at least billet caps and some form of full girdle that tie into the pan rails
I’ve made it clear, the halo when used with stock caps and aftermarket is a benefit..you just can’t shoot down my facts and reasons why… so you jump on the aftermarket crank.
Being the moron you are,, why not give us your insight into what type of bottom end mains are required when building something like a 600hp big block using the factory crank, and more than that using and aftermarket crank?
