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NICE! At what level of performance does one start looking into these on the 455's?
every 455 should get ARP studs and set of straps. The halo is another added benefit.
some will tell you the halo does nothing..I think it does. You see them on some European engines from the factory now. The Big block main caps are very high so the stud/nut is way up there..which has a tendency to move around at the top,, the halo prevents that
every 455 should get ARP studs and set of straps. The halo is another added benefit.
some will tell you the halo does nothing..I think it does. You see them on some European engines from the factory now. The Big block main caps are very high so the stud/nut is way up there..which has a tendency to move around at the top,, the halo prevents that
Did you side step the question? At what power level? I haven't seen any evidence of stud or nut movement! But hey your street car is faster than my race car.
Did you side step the question? At what power level? I haven't seen any evidence of stud or nut movement! But hey your street car is faster than my race car.
He asked at what level of PERFORMANCE…and I said all. Which means every performance 455 built should get them
The big blocks are well know for showing cap movement when using stock hardware by the fretting marks on the mating surfaces.
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; Aug 31, 2022 at 06:01 AM.
FWIW, when Frank tore my last one down after it ate a valve, he said the caps still showed signs of walking around with the J&S 5 main halo installed, after about 12,500 miles. Did they walk LESS? I don't know. It went back in the current engine that is basically the same but with different heads, cam, intake, and carb. The crank and rods were reused in a different block with the same, but new, pistons.
FWIW, when Frank tore my last one down after it ate a valve, he said the caps still showed signs of walking around with the J&S 5 main halo installed, after about 12,500 miles. Did they walk LESS? I don't know. It went back in the current engine that is basically the same but with different heads, cam, intake, and carb. The crank and rods were reused in a different block with the same, but new, pistons.
Okay not doubting anyone I am just saying haven't seen that issue yet. I am not using a halo . I am using ARP hardware bolts on two engines. Using studs on the other. All three engines have been in the 11's one deep 11's .
One engine is using a 425 crank with Chevy BB rod journal's and the other two are stock 455 cranks.
l know of two NHRA Oldsmobile class racers that used the halo.
one car is now retired
They would not confirm how well it was functioning only that it did not hurt.
Sure some engines have a rock solid bottom end others are using aftermarket blocks , those engines will not need any added support
I wouldn't turn one 6700/7000 without a support on bottom end unless it's a diesel or the new Rocket Block. JMO
You may not but that does not stop NHRA Stock Eliminator Racers from doing it and it seems to work okay for them. For decades there were no special aftermarket blocks legal for Oldsmobiles in that General class and they're not exploding all over the place all the time.
The bulkheads are the weak point in the block......
You may not but that does not stop NHRA Stock Eliminator Racers from doing it and it seems to work okay for them. For decades there were no special aftermarket blocks legal for Oldsmobiles in that General class and they're not exploding all over the place all the time.
The bulkheads are the weak point in the block......
This maybe be true and all. BUT we only ever ran flat tappet cams at one time too. This is 2022 and there is more knowledge and tech out there. Like roller lifters over flat tappets. Or even going to a larger dia roller as that is a known upgrade today. BUT yes others have gotten away without doing that.
I see the halo as just some added support that doesn't seem to have a own side other then costing a few bucks. So why not, it can't hurt and just might help someone here or there.
This maybe be true and all. BUT we only ever ran flat tappet cams at one time too. This is 2022 and there is more knowledge and tech out there. Like roller lifters over flat tappets. Or even going to a larger dia roller as that is a known upgrade today. BUT yes others have gotten away without doing that.
I see the halo as just some added support that doesn't seem to have a own side other then costing a few bucks. So why not, it can't hurt and just might help someone here or there.
I'm not just talking about the distant past, and valvetrain tech is not relevant to the subject at hand.
If you want to go down the road of current technology, a PROPERLY DESIGNED 8-counterweight crankshaft WITH PROPER METALLURGY, PROCESSING, AND HEAT TREATMENT will do far-far more to add life to a flimsy block than any halo girdle ever could. By proper, I do not mean guess-work designs or imports.
I'm not just talking about the distant past, and valvetrain tech is not relevant to the subject at hand.
If you want to go down the road of current technology, a PROPERLY DESIGNED 8-counterweight crankshaft WITH PROPER METALLURGY, PROCESSING, AND HEAT TREATMENT will do far-far more to add life to a flimsy block than any halo girdle ever could. By proper, I do not mean guess-work designs or imports.
NOPE sorry, I do NOT agree! And have first hand experience with this in various other forms of engine development. Wither it be a 9700 RPM Cleveland Ford with a custom one-off Moldex crank in a IHRA record-setting B/D, Couple other forms of PRO STOCK that were involved with, various turbo and Nitrous deals. I WILL agree that the crank you mentioned with also help over that of a OEM crank, but doubtful that current crop of "monkey-see monkey-do" 8 CW are better then everything in all cases, would stop a bad block coming apart more then a halo would??? We HAVE seen car actually SLOW down switching to 8 CW cranks. Be it one of the variation of PRO Stock with there high RPM's, Aussie deal 397 inch revs 11,700 RPM, MMPS 822 that runs to the high side of 8800 RPMs. or pump gas street motors, we have seen all forms take a hit. We had a 3200 lbs 1968 Nova 3.75 stroke (standard Scat crank) under 10 to 1 compression that ran the best of 9.01. Swapped out to the better 8 CW crank. best was 9.16 in the 1/4. BUT did pick up a couple numbers in MPH.
ALL things have an elasticity rate before fracturing! This mean how far thing can move before cracking/braking.
So lets use a 1970 455 block with OEM crank for example.
-At say 6000rpm a main might move 6 to 8 microns.
-Now putting this better crank as you mentions, will it only move 3 microns or still around 6 to 8 microns??
-Or does the weak are still flex to to the rotating mass and direction change @ 6000 RPMs?
-Now adding the helo "could" possibly bring it down a couple of microns since the main is "borrowing" strength/clamping force for the mains beside it?
-Over time, metal fatigue and just old fashion wearing out might open those number in either case by X microns till finally THAT block reaches it's elasticity limit and no longer comes back, and therefore cracks.
Now another thing you need to look at is cost! On a relatively low dollar, under 6000 RPM street style build for say a 10.80 ET or slower car, do you really feel the need to spend the EXTRA what $1,500 on a 8 CW crank over what $200 that the helo would cost.
YES 8 CW crank do have there places and YES there are usually better harmonics. BUT if you have a used block that the series of blocks, like 455 OLDS, is known to be weak, then I feel the FIRST step is to run the helo. This come from someone who HAS SEEN a weak block let go at 9700 RPM, and the cylinder that broke, that in turn, broke the crank in 3 places, still spun nice and free on that main journal. Hell we could have even REUSED those bearing from that journal. BOTH the helo AND 8CW cranks are bandaids for a deeper underlying issue that only a aftermarket block can solve. But one can save I think well over $2,000.00 by using the helo over the big $$$ crank and rebalance to an existing deal.
NOPE sorry, I do NOT agree! And have first hand experience with this in various other forms of engine development. Wither it be a 9700 RPM Cleveland Ford with a custom one-off Moldex crank in a IHRA record-setting B/D, Couple other forms of PRO STOCK that were involved with, various turbo and Nitrous deals. I WILL agree that the crank you mentioned with also help over that of a OEM crank, but doubtful that current crop of "monkey-see monkey-do" 8 CW are better then everything in all cases, would stop a bad block coming apart more then a halo would??? We HAVE seen car actually SLOW down switching to 8 CW cranks. Be it one of the variation of PRO Stock with there high RPM's, Aussie deal 397 inch revs 11,700 RPM, MMPS 822 that runs to the high side of 8800 RPMs. or pump gas street motors, we have seen all forms take a hit. We had a 3200 lbs 1968 Nova 3.75 stroke (standard Scat crank) under 10 to 1 compression that ran the best of 9.01. Swapped out to the better 8 CW crank. best was 9.16 in the 1/4. BUT did pick up a couple numbers in MPH.
ALL things have an elasticity rate before fracturing! This mean how far thing can move before cracking/braking.
So lets use a 1970 455 block with OEM crank for example.
-At say 6000rpm a main might move 6 to 8 microns.
-Now putting this better crank as you mentions, will it only move 3 microns or still around 6 to 8 microns??
-Or does the weak are still flex to to the rotating mass and direction change @ 6000 RPMs?
-Now adding the helo "could" possibly bring it down a couple of microns since the main is "borrowing" strength/clamping force for the mains beside it?
-Over time, metal fatigue and just old fashion wearing out might open those number in either case by X microns till finally THAT block reaches it's elasticity limit and no longer comes back, and therefore cracks.
Now another thing you need to look at is cost! On a relatively low dollar, under 6000 RPM street style build for say a 10.80 ET or slower car, do you really feel the need to spend the EXTRA what $1,500 on a 8 CW crank over what $200 that the helo would cost.
YES 8 CW crank do have there places and YES there are usually better harmonics. BUT if you have a used block that the series of blocks, like 455 OLDS, is known to be weak, then I feel the FIRST step is to run the helo. This come from someone who HAS SEEN a weak block let go at 9700 RPM, and the cylinder that broke, that in turn, broke the crank in 3 places, still spun nice and free on that main journal. Hell we could have even REUSED those bearing from that journal. BOTH the helo AND 8CW cranks are bandaids for a deeper underlying issue that only a aftermarket block can solve. But one can save I think well over $2,000.00 by using the helo over the big $$$ crank and rebalance to an existing deal.
I think you misunderstood my comment - I did not say "monkey see/monkey do on the 8 counterweight cranks, I was saying the opposite. And, I can tell you that I've got a bit of experience in this area as well, including 130 WOT hours on dyno with a block that is generally considered to be fragile, typically failing #4 bulkhead with typical 6-cwt cranks, that was mint at teardown after running a 8-cwt crank that was properly designed and made. So yes, most definitely the well-done crank will help more than a "imagineered" girdle ever could.
As far as cost is concerned, it depends on how long you want to be in bracket racing. Typical racer "life" is about 7 years, according to data, so there is a strong argument that says you will spend less if you buy the $3500-$4000 crank up-front vs recoveries over time from occasional breakage and catastrophic failures.
I also have had significant direct exposure to the high RPM racing in multiple applications/venues/programs and their transition to 8-cwt cranks, then back to 6-cwt after advancements were made in design, metallurgy, heat-treatment, etc and I am intimately familiar with the windage gains & losses through those transitions/phases.
You mentioned Moldex. Bob Gilliean (owner/founder) was a personal friend and arguably a mentor of mine when I was growing up, along with his racing partner, Joy Fair, who was most definitely a hero of mine when I was a kid. I was involved in some of their "off the wall" racing projects, like the 4.185" bore x 4.125" stroke V-6 that was a weapon in pavement late model racing, when rules makers made V6 weight at 2650 minimum, with no regard for displacement, during a time when high compression 360 CID max v8 had to weigh 2950.
Back to the topic at hand......and your comments on deflection. If you ever get a chance & have some extra nickles to spend, put an encoder on both ends of a crankshaft & measure torsional/radial movements and the deltas at high RPM, peak TQ, on a rev limiter, during light knock, etc. You'd be surprised.
YES I thought Bob was behind Moldex? But seeing as Bob passed back in 2017 I think, we did lose one of the greats. Bob was the one who got MY crew chief started in P/S as Bob sold them his 1990 Ford Quality Care Tbird so they could start PS racing with him. I too was saying 8CW are not always bad, but when you have a mild to med performance street build, guys are getting tons of yrs out of there "normal" offshore cranks. My car I just bought, 1970 W30 convert CLONE, has been together since 2008. It's had as number of 12.0 nitrous hits on it and still "seems" ok. BUT will find out more this winter when it comes apart for freshening. It is supposed to already have an aftermarket crank. So I want my pump gas street car to go 11.20's. THAT IS MY PERSONAL GOAL WITH THIS CAR. Yet hearing the issues with these blocks leads me to think that the helo will help like the Windsor Ford. And we have seen many times what we believe is a good band aide for the strength of those blocks.
As for the encoders? NO I wouldn't be surprised. I'm a realist and know from years of machining things like turbine impellers for US nuclear subs, how much things can move around under loads. I can't even count the number of crank tigger pick-ups I have seen broken as people set the air-gap to tight and at RPM they hit.
So my point is, 100% of the people can afford to put the helo on there 455s as it's cheap. It will help at these levels , even if it's just a bit of piece of mind. Only about 15% would WANT to spend $4,000 on a crank for a 550-600Hp OLDS that doesn't see 6200RPM. I can't see a downside to a helo.
YES I thought Bob was behind Moldex? But seeing as Bob passed back in 2017 I think, we did lose one of the greats. Bob was the one who got MY crew chief started in P/S as Bob sold them his 1990 Ford Quality Care Tbird so they could start PS racing with him. I too was saying 8CW are not always bad, but when you have a mild to med performance street build, guys are getting tons of yrs out of there "normal" offshore cranks. My car I just bought, 1970 W30 convert CLONE, has been together since 2008. It's had as number of 12.0 nitrous hits on it and still "seems" ok. BUT will find out more this winter when it comes apart for freshening. It is supposed to already have an aftermarket crank. So I want my pump gas street car to go 11.20's. THAT IS MY PERSONAL GOAL WITH THIS CAR. Yet hearing the issues with these blocks leads me to think that the helo will help like the Windsor Ford. And we have seen many times what we believe is a good band aide for the strength of those blocks.
As for the encoders? NO I wouldn't be surprised. I'm a realist and know from years of machining things like turbine impellers for US nuclear subs, how much things can move around under loads. I can't even count the number of crank tigger pick-ups I have seen broken as people set the air-gap to tight and at RPM they hit.
So my point is, 100% of the people can afford to put the helo on there 455s as it's cheap. It will help at these levels , even if it's just a bit of piece of mind. Only about 15% would WANT to spend $4,000 on a crank for a 550-600Hp OLDS that doesn't see 6200RPM. I can't see a downside to a helo.
The Bob you are referring to is Bob Glidden, not Bob Gillean. Gilly did make Glidden's crankshafts for many years though, IIRC, and he passed away in 2011.
On the halos, it is cheap and it may or may not help or hurt. I didn't do it but I was in a direct line of sight to girdle & bed plate development in 4-5 different OEM programs and I can say that for sure they can actually cause some harm. I can also say the ones that for sure helped do not look like the ones people are talking about in this general forum. Not sure but Google might lead you to pics of the supports used on the Ford 4.2L V-6 truck engine from late 90's into the 2000's. Those do help.
YES I thought Bob was behind Moldex? But seeing as Bob passed back in 2017 I think, we did lose one of the greats. Bob was the one who got MY crew chief started in P/S as Bob sold them his 1990 Ford Quality Care Tbird so they could start PS racing with him. I too was saying 8CW are not always bad, but when you have a mild to med performance street build, guys are getting tons of yrs out of there "normal" offshore cranks. My car I just bought, 1970 W30 convert CLONE, has been together since 2008. It's had as number of 12.0 nitrous hits on it and still "seems" ok. BUT will find out more this winter when it comes apart for freshening. It is supposed to already have an aftermarket crank. So I want my pump gas street car to go 11.20's. THAT IS MY PERSONAL GOAL WITH THIS CAR. Yet hearing the issues with these blocks leads me to think that the helo will help like the Windsor Ford. And we have seen many times what we believe is a good band aide for the strength of those blocks.
As for the encoders? NO I wouldn't be surprised. I'm a realist and know from years of machining things like turbine impellers for US nuclear subs, how much things can move around under loads. I can't even count the number of crank tigger pick-ups I have seen broken as people set the air-gap to tight and at RPM they hit.
So my point is, 100% of the people can afford to put the helo on there 455s as it's cheap. It will help at these levels , even if it's just a bit of piece of mind. Only about 15% would WANT to spend $4,000 on a crank for a 550-600Hp OLDS that doesn't see 6200RPM. I can't see a downside to a helo.
The Bob you are referring to is Bob Glidden, not Bob Gillean. Gilly did make Glidden's crankshafts for many years though, IIRC, and he passed away in 2011.
On the halos, it is cheap and it may or may not help or hurt. I didn't do it but I was in a direct line of sight to girdle & bed plate development in 4-5 different OEM programs and I can say that for sure they can actually cause some harm. I can also say the ones that for sure helped do not look like the ones people are talking about in this general forum. Not sure but Google might lead you to pics of the supports used on the Ford 4.2L V-6 truck engine from late 90's into the 2000's. Those do help.
a PROPERLY DESIGNED 8-counterweight crankshaft WITH PROPER METALLURGY, PROCESSING, AND HEAT TREATMENT will do far-far more to add life to a flimsy block than any halo girdle ever could.
l know of two NHRA Oldsmobile class racers that used the halo.
one car is now retired
They would not confirm how well it was functioning only that it did not hurt.
Sure some engines have a rock solid bottom end others are using aftermarket blocks , those engines will not need any added support
Either way its not legal in stock. Thats why Jason has the engine out of his car every 20 passes, that is why I do not run the 13.5 comp stage 1 engine, to much maintenance for me.
No halo for me till I have a problem. I see where a 8 cw would help. I have ten years and no catastrophic failure on 11.20 and 11.60 11.80 engines. All 455 blocks. Only one has a 425 crank. Mine have had no power adder's . I race my car in drive with a turbo 400 thank. I don't need to shift to bracket race. Good day to all and a very good discussion.
Either way its not legal in stock. Thats why Jason has the engine out of his car every 20 passes, that is why I do not run the 13.5 comp stage 1 engine, to much maintenance for me.
From my understanding girdles were not legal and the halo not being tied to block was okay. Dale's halo is a girdle as it is tied to the block so yes that would not be legal.
The Oldsmobile stock guys were just running the halo not tied to the block. I could be wrong and the halo on its own could possibly not be legal as anything is possible in stock.
The reason I say that is that they allow aftermarket blocks, gas and DX blocks that are sleeved to 307 bore.
I think the maintenance for the hi comp stage one has improved since they switched to nitrided crankshafts, I know they were having rod bearing issues prior.
Yeah, a bunch of factory blocks have been using them for years. One of my favorite under dogs, the Atlas 4.2 Inline 6 also uses one. If an aftermarket RWD pan came available, I would seriously consider one. You currently have to strecth an Atlas Inline 4/5 cylinder pan, due to the goofy factory front drive shaft through the stock pan setup. So much cooler than a put in everything LS. Some are turning low 9's boosted in the 1/4.
