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Yeah, a bunch of factory blocks have been using them for years.
They have, and each of them were developed using analytical tools (FEA, etc) then verified to be effective by running those engines at redline, under full load/WOT for up to 600 hours.
That is a different scenario than making something to physically fit, out of materials that may have different strength characteristics than what is actually best for the specific block they will be fastened to, and hoping it does what it seems like it will do or what someone wants it to do.
May help, may hurt, who knows....it becomes more of an emotional thing than an objective thing if no real testing is done to prove otherwise. By testing I mean 3 engines with no girdle, running at full load with targeted knock levels in specific cylinders, for a pre-determined amount of time, knowing ahead of time that something is going to break. Then, same as before except with girdles. Full inspections after both scenarios.
I'd think differently if there were, say, 3 or more people who had failed engines then put 100% the same combinations of parts together, along with girdles in question, and ran them 100% exactly the same way with same exact tuning and saw failures completely go away. Otherwise it's just a hope & a guess.
You don’t have to be an engineer to understand how boxing makes structures stronger.
You're right about that, but it does help to have engineering expertise to determine whether the strength you are adding to one part of the structure is at the detriment of the other. That's my point.
if it was all as simple as you are saying it is then nobody would bother wasting their time on FDA and iterations of designs for those things on the OEM level. They do what they do because they found out that some designs actually make things worse.
How did we go from using stock caps and a halo for support to an 8cw crank ?
When given a choice on an Olds BB between a properly designed crank for racing or a Halo Girdle the crank is the better choice. You answered your own question before that when taking about the cap moving fore and aft. You need to ask yourself why the cap is moving. It's forces from the crank. A better crank will have less distortion with less destructive forces. That being said a Halo Girdle has more effective properties to stabilize the bottom end of the block. With a better crank you need less of that. That's why I would choose the crank.
You're right about that, but it does help to have engineering expertise to determine whether the strength you are adding to one part of the structure is at the detriment of the other. That's my point.
if it was all as simple as you are saying it is then nobody would bother wasting their time on FDA and iterations of designs for those things on the OEM level. They do what they do because they found out that some designs actually make things worse.
you are overthinking it.. it’s not that complicated to figure out. Simply tying the top of the studs together helps prevent for and aft movement at top of the stud.. the big block has a cap height of 2.880”
If the stud length was 2” , there would be less lateral movement.
you are overthinking it.. it’s not that complicated to figure out. Simply tying the top of the studs together helps prevent for and aft movement at top of the stud.. the big block has a cap height of 2.880”
If the stud length was 2” , there would be less lateral movement.
Actually you are underthinking it but it really doesn't matter if the mission is to simply make yourself feel better. Your mind is made up so do whatever you think is best for you. 🙂
Actually you are underthinking it but it really doesn't matter if the mission is to simply make yourself feel better. Your mind is made up so do whatever you think is best for you. 🙂
Are the factory installed ones meant as a feel good exercise?
Actually you are underthinking it but it really doesn't matter if the mission is to simply make yourself feel better. Your mind is made up so do whatever you think is best for you. 🙂
The halo argument and it's effectiveness comes second only to an Oldsmobile head thread. The reason I bring this up is that every possible argument for and against the use of the halo was thrashed out on ROP many years ago.
In fact one of the halo haters now sells one himself. I have yet to see anyone running one claim failure or other issues caused by the halo.
Canton Racing products are known for producing products that are hi quality that work well, would they risk there reputation on wishful thinking?
Canton makes halos check out there catalog.
May help, may hurt, who knows....it becomes more of an emotional thing than an objective thing if no real testing is done to prove otherwise.
SO after all these long-winded, holier-then-thou reply's, you DON'T KNOW if these halos work?? My and others have stated the can't hurt, just like straps on main caps. I stated that the 8 CW crank is often a "monkey-see monkey-do" type of line of thinking. Well maybe the halo are too?
SO after all these long-winded, holier-then-thou reply's, you DON'T KNOW if these halos work?? My and others have stated the can't hurt, just like straps on main caps. I stated that the 8 CW crank is often a "monkey-see monkey-do" type of line of thinking. Well maybe the halo are too?
I'm saying that NOBODY objectively knows whether the halos sold in the aftermarket for Oldsmobiles work or not, but the OEM girdles do work because they have been objectively verified to do so.
Cheap 8-counterweight cranks are probably monkey-see monkey-do, but i would not say the same thing about the Bryant 8-cwt cranks. Worlds of difference between them.
The halo argument and it's effectiveness comes second only to an Oldsmobile head thread. The reason I bring this up is that every possible argument for and against the use of the halo was thrashed out on ROP many years ago.
In fact one of the halo haters now sells one himself. I have yet to see anyone running one claim failure or other issues caused by the halo.
Canton Racing products are known for producing products that are hi quality that work well, would they risk there reputation on wishful thinking?
Canton makes halos check out there catalog.
How did they test it to ensure that it is not wishful thinking? Lots of things are sold in the high performance aftermarket that haven't been objectively verified to know whether they work or not, and by how much either way.
I'm saying that NOBODY objectively knows whether the halos sold in the aftermarket for Oldsmobiles work or not, but the OEM girdles do work because they have been objectively verified to do so.
Cheap 8-counterweight cranks are probably monkey-see monkey-do, but i would not say the same thing about the Bryant 8-cwt cranks. Worlds of difference between them.
Short & humble enough for you?
NO you totally missed my point on 8 CW cranks. It's not just the quality/design, but also the INTENDED APPLICATIONS of those lesser deigned cranks.
Look at my name, NEW 2 OLDS. That I am.. New to this, no. Due to performance per $$$ and parts availability, I have Chevys. At this point, I own 8 BBc. I personally seen and own 4 billet cranks, La Kryptonite, Winburg, Bryant and Ohio crankshaft. I also own a couple Scat and 1 Eagle as well as a couple OEM Chevy forged. SO I have seen the differences between materials and manufacturers.
I'm also building a 400 SBc incase I ever want a SB something?? I bought a CAST Scat as that is all this build required with the STOCK 400 2 bolt SBc. SURE a Winburg would have been nicer, but for a mild, 10 second/ 550Hp SB it's not needed.
And that was my whole point, IT'S EASY TO SPEND OTHERS $$$ AND SAY THEY NEED THIS OR THAT IS BETTER! But in the real world of 550Hp street engine, most the time these much more $$$ parts are not required.
NO you totally missed my point on 8 CW cranks. It's not just the quality/design, but also the INTENDED APPLICATIONS of those lesser deigned cranks.
Look at my name, NEW 2 OLDS. That I am.. New to this, no. Due to performance per $$$ and parts availability, I have Chevys. At this point, I own 8 BBc. I personally seen and own 4 billet cranks, La Kryptonite, Winburg, Bryant and Ohio crankshaft. I also own a couple Scat and 1 Eagle as well as a couple OEM Chevy forged. SO I have seen the differences between materials and manufacturers.
I'm also building a 400 SBc incase I ever want a SB something?? I bought a CAST Scat as that is all this build required with the STOCK 400 2 bolt SBc. SURE a Winburg would have been nicer, but for a mild, 10 second/ 550Hp SB it's not needed.
And that was my whole point, IT'S EASY TO SPEND OTHERS $$$ AND SAY THEY NEED THIS OR THAT IS BETTER! But in the real world of 550Hp street engine, most the time these much more $$$ parts are not required.
it all depends on whether you want to spend the money up front or spend as you go.
kind of indirectly related, I know somebody who bought a $30,000 big block Chevy 632 crate engine with a small supercharger on it because he didn't want to spend $50,000 on a non supercharged engine that would make more horsepower with better Parts all through it. So far the $30,000 engine has broken valve springs, failed head gaskets, and in general performed poorly after 15 total runs. The engine that would have cost about $25,000 more has been run as a combination in several cars to over 300 passes with everything in mint condition at tear down so pretty much everything could be reused, even the valve springs.
how many more times would the $30,000 engine have to fail before the same money has been spent as the good engine?
of course we're way off topic from Oldsmobiles and what people typically do with them at this point but the basic point about spending a couple thousand dollars extra to get a good crankshaft versus a lesser crankshaft and other ancillary Hardware that is still likely to cause problems over time doesn't spell out a value equation unless we're talking about very very limited use or a street car that never sees High rpm.
of course we're way off topic from Oldsmobiles and what people typically do with them at this point but the basic point about spending a couple thousand dollars extra to get a good crankshaft versus a lesser crankshaft and other ancillary Hardware that is still likely to cause problems over time doesn't spell out a value equation unless we're talking about very very limited use or a street car that never sees High rpm.
YES I agree. With these BB OLDS the need for a better crank comes into the equation way sooner then BBc or BBf. That is why when we talk to people about there builds, one of the first 3 questions is BUDGET and then GOALS? $2,000 budget and 1000Hp goals, just don't add up by any ways or math. Halo is a piece of mind that one is TRYING.
This was all discussed in a thread on here years ago.I tried looking for it. To no avail. Maybe the Forum gods,can help.The CO member,said the Halo made a good handle to pick up the broken lower end of the engine.
Better caps, ARP studs, straps, 4 & 5 Halo, full girdle. From left to right, adds a little better life to the crank and block.
To me, they are all band aids. Except the full girdle, RR block or DX - D block.with ARP and 4 bolt caps. Lightweight parts and machine correctly.
I'm not a engine builder, but i did stay at a holiday inn express last night!
You guys are getting yourselves all bent out of shape for nothing. A properly installed Halo Girdle will enhance the stiffness of the block assembly. This is a plus. The only way it can cause a failure by design is if the CT of the material is vastly different or the design causes an unwanted stress. A stock BBO blocks strength is it's strength. You can change the strength of the assembly by adding a girdle that is positively anchored to the block to distribute the forces over a wider area to relive high stress in other areas. The Halo does not do this.
I'm saying that NOBODY objectively knows whether the halos sold in the aftermarket for Oldsmobiles work or not, but the OEM girdles do work because they have been objectively verified to do so.
Cheap 8-counterweight cranks are probably monkey-see monkey-do, but i would not say the same thing about the Bryant 8-cwt cranks. Worlds of difference between them.
Short & humble enough for you?
do you honestly think every part, or aftermarket part out there has gone through what you say is objective testing? Good lord man…some things don’t need any testing whatsoever, nothing.
every cam profile ?
every intake manifold?
every header?
No on all that and the vast majority of parts for the Olds, also a big fat no.
you can’t refute what my reasons are for using a main cap support other than, it hasn’t been tested.
does a steel strap across the top of the cap offer a harder surface that spreads the stud/nut load over a wider area? Yes
does connecting the steel strap tops of the caps prevent or reduce flex for and aft? Yes
The Flexing of stock caps on the Olds is no different than any other engine that has added one, or uses them from the factory. Those were added after the fact for high output engines because the initial design wasn’t built for additional power output.
I’ve given you the specs for the contact area, stud/nut height and stock cap nut/bolt head area. The small block chev has more area.
it’s clamping force and area, that’s it’s..don’t need no FEA to know the more you can prevent any movement along any plane , is a benefit.
you must get nothing done, ever,, thinking like you do.
How did they test it to ensure that it is not wishful thinking? Lots of things are sold in the high performance aftermarket that haven't been objectively verified to know whether they work or not, and by how much either way.
So you are not a fan of the halo that's fine. There are many racers and street strip cars running them that think they help. They are the only ones that truly know if they make a difference or not as they can compare their engine that they built before using the halo
If money were no object many would run rocket racing or DX blocks with a Bryant 8 CW crank with light pistons and rods but this not reality for most.
There are those that like to do more with less and like to use as many factory parts and the halo offers them another option.
Personally, I don't see how it could hurt on an Olds. Like Dale said about the fastener height, if you can reduce deflection at the top, you're golden. Try climbing a telephone pole that's just stuck in the ground with nothing stabilizing the top. It's not my idea of fun, and I've done it.
Personally, I don't see how it could hurt on an Olds. Like Dale said about the fastener height, if you can reduce deflection at the top, you're golden. Try climbing a telephone pole that's just stuck in the ground with nothing stabilizing the top. It's not my idea of fun, and I've done it.
the telephone pole is a good analogy.
it’s also the big spread between the bolts because of the big 3” mains.
the big block has narrowest, tallest and smallest contact area main caps I’ve ever seen. I recently did an old 1970 Toyota celica 1.8 L 8RC engine for a guy. Its got 5 main bearings, wider main caps with more contact area than the big block Olds
do you honestly think every part, or aftermarket part out there has gone through what you say is objective testing? Good lord man…some things don’t need any testing whatsoever, nothing.
every cam profile ?
every intake manifold?
every header?
No on all that and the vast majority of parts for the Olds, also a big fat no.
you can’t refute what my reasons are for using a main cap support other than, it hasn’t been tested.
does a steel strap across the top of the cap offer a harder surface that spreads the stud/nut load over a wider area? Yes
does connecting the steel strap tops of the caps prevent or reduce flex for and aft? Yes
The Flexing of stock caps on the Olds is no different than any other engine that has added one, or uses them from the factory. Those were added after the fact for high output engines because the initial design wasn’t built for additional power output.
I’ve given you the specs for the contact area, stud/nut height and stock cap nut/bolt head area. The small block chev has more area.
it’s clamping force and area, that’s it’s..don’t need no FEA to know the more you can prevent any movement along any plane , is a benefit.
you must get nothing done, ever,, thinking like you do.
No, I'm certain that most aftermarket HP parts get no validation testing. And, I get plenty done.
Maybe an OEM should wise up & hire you, since you seem to have it all figured out off the top of your head. All that use of analytical tools & validation can be skipped over. Maybe the development blocks I've seen that were either broken before reaching durability targets, or had unacceptable NVH, from incorrect bedplate/girdle designs were just bad luck. They should hire you & their luck would change.
No, I'm certain that most aftermarket HP parts get no validation testing. And, I get plenty done.
Maybe an OEM should wise up & hire you, since you seem to have it all figured out off the top of your head. All that use of analytical tools & validation can be skipped over. Maybe the development blocks I've seen that were either broken before reaching durability targets, or had unacceptable NVH, from incorrect bedplate/girdle designs were just bad luck. They should hire you & their luck would change.
tell us more about all those broken blocks from improper girdle designs?
what manufacturer? Who’s girdle design? Any pics? Who did this testing?
Here's a video of one in action, and yes all of the acronyms were used and it was thoroughly tested, including combustion analysis: https://youtu.be/_eyUOeW7YJ4
is that yours or did you have something to do with the engine?
