TK-65

Yes, but internet forums were not founded on free speech.

2blu442

Pete, I apologize. It was inappropriate for me to imply its OK to flame someone on ROP but not on CO. I should have been able to make my point without slamming any other web sites.

John

Koda

Actually, free exchange of information IS what the internet is about.

Also, it's worth mentioning that, in all those rules that "we all agreed to," there is no mention of the moderators' duties and obligations. A contract, which this isn't, is only binding, which this isn't, when both sides enter into it. Otherwise, it is just "an agreement" which people may legally and freely choose to disagree with at any time.

I would think improper moderation is a good reason to choose to disagree with the agreed rules. Threatening bans is a bad idea, as seen by the backlash here. Web forums belong to the community, not the mods.

Olds92

I agree. F-85 shouldn't be banned. We need hardcore OLDSMOBILE fans, not just car guys. Thats what other forums are for. This is OLDS all day everyday on this forum. No chevy days, no ford days, and certainly no chevys in OLDSMOBILE days. All OLDS all the time!

TK-65

Web forums belong to the owner of forum. The community uses them and creates the information on said forum, but they do not own them. If this place was free for every to post what they want why isnt there a "nice butt" thread on every message forum? My forum has one big rule from Proboards, no ****. If they see anything thats considered **** my forum will be shut down. I can scream free speech but in the end I dont own the board and they are free to do what they will with it.

Just like there is not freedom of speech at work, there is not freedom of speech on message boards.

2blu442

Olds24, if I count project and parts cars I own 21 Oldsmobiles and every one has an Olds engine in it, well, the ones that still have motors anyway. So is it OK for me to say that f85 was out of line and that he should have a cooling off period of three days? I did read all the posts and tried to talk him into calming down and backing off, but he wouldn't, he continued to try and escalate the situation. So would everything be OK if I had been the moderator to give him a time out, since all my cars have Olds engines in them? I've bought and sold a lot of parts through CO and am well liked. Does that give me the right to flame other people I disagree with? Is this really about a moderator bringing discipline to a member, or that one of the people has a chevy motor in his car? We went through this other than olds engines thing in the past. Why do you insist on bringing it up again? There's a process. If you think a moderator is out of line contact a Super Moderator and make your case to him. But I think rather than resolving the problem right now your throwing gas on the fire. Please don't. John

Koda

Disagree. The database may be owned by whoever pays the bill, but the content (the stuff that matters) is owned by each person that posts it. If everyone were to leave here today, sure, someone would still own it, but it would be worth nothing. This is part of "bottom up" leadership. There is too much "top down" leadership in all aspects of today's society, where someone who was appointed, or even anointed, in charge lords it over their minions. What we need more of is "bottom up" leadership, where the group decides what to do, and the people they chose to do it facilitates those expressed wishes.

As such, an American message board would have moderators picked by the membership, and those who fell out of favor would have to step down. As this is not a board for Sunbeam Tigers or Austin Healys, perhaps we should do that.

Olds92

Since Josh is banned and can not defend himself, I will. He did not attack oldcutlass in his thread he posted. He only stated the fact that Oldcutlass threatened him via PM. And he also tried replying to your post. But oldcutlass kept deleting the thread because he didnt want other members to see what kind of person he really is. He was not starting trouble, just trying to let other members know what was going on. And obviously oldcutlass didnt want others to see what he did!!!!!

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

coppercutlass

Olds92 brings up a good point if there is nothing to hide why delete post's or threads about said incidents ? Kinda makes you think.

TK-65

If I walked up to your front door and sprayed painted the most racist crap I could think of on it and ran away, who owns it? Me or you? You own the property and now you own the words on it. Doesnt matter that some punk wrote them you now own them. Would you leave them there because you didnt write them?

I dont know why everyone thinks they own message boards. Inline Tube filed a law suit to stop message board members from posting derogatory messages about their company. Did the forum owners say "Hey we dont own the words the members do, go after them" Nope, they said no more messages about that company. Why, because they own the place and they make the rules.

Go post some nice free speech **** in the clubhouse and see where it gets you.

TK-65

No sides taken in this but this is not the first time this issue has been broached by F-85 and the moderator.

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...s-welcome.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...tml#post533737

Olds24

If you want to ban him for 3 days big deal? Not the Issue I am just saying there would of never been an issue with you or anyone else with OLDS motors. Hope your Moderater gets a "timeout" too and time to think of his comments! He was just prob pissed that someone called him out on having a Chev in his Olds I prob would of flagged the post too!

2blu442

To clear up possible misinterpretation he was give a 3 day "no posting" privilege. That's different from banned for life. I ask Josh to back off and cool down and not escalate the conflict, but he did not do that. He copied a PM and tried to post it with his interpretation of what the PM said. I don't think the PM said what he thought it did, and posting it with the message that "I'm being bullied" would surly stir things up. When you see type written words you don't get the tone of voice, facial expressions, etc. so its easy to read into words meaning that may not be there. Especially if one is already riled. But for future reference the best thing would be for him to contact a SuperModerator and lay out his case before them. You know, we're all human and sometime we need a mediator to resolve the conflict. That can still happen, but getting members worked up will not help. So... please don't post inflammatory statements about what occured. And when the 3 days are up please have Josh contact Oldsguy with the situation or you can pass it on for him.

John

coppercutlass

It seems many members are already worked up so that backfired. But the fact it back fired lets you know how they feel they being the members who disagree with the ban and all the bs. that's being called flaming.

Olds92

I read both those threads and to me F-85 was right. Everybody here technically should be on his side IF they're OLDSMOBILE people. Just a bunch of car guys here....

815Cutlass1972

There have been many suggestions to resolve this problem since this thread was opened by a large amount of people who support not suspended someone over this."

Is this really about a moderator bringing discipline to a member, or that one of the people has a chevy motor in his car? "
No, it's about a moderator who was not professional with his responses that had been spoken of in this thread by numerous people. Secondly, Yes it would have been better for you to enact the suspension because it didn't directly involve you and you have stated u contacted F85 to warn him, so yes if a sanction was coming it should of came from someone not directly involved in this argument. We all know its a hot topic about non olds in Olds cars on a Olds specific site and that decision was not voted on by the general membership, but left up to moderators. We lost members, because of that also. But I'm still here posting, and won't read any of that stuff. Yes we don't own the site, but without the community supporting the site what do you have? This whole debacle opens up good debate on why some things need to change here on when and how to use powers of moderation. Hopefully two wrongs on BOTH sides that only one person is being punished or sanctioned for doesn't cause the "great divide" on this site. If I were a site moderator I would do the right thing and wipe my hands clean and refer this to a super moderator myself, because what is stirring people up is that many feel what has been done is an injustice as only party was sanctioned.

Koda

You have some confusion over copyright versus property rights. I will attempt to clear it up. Your home is your property, provided you are square with your mortgage company. Anyone who vandalizes your property is committing a crime, and you are free to remove the defacement.

However, your analogy does not apply. A better one would be that I invited you to come to my house and address my local car club about the experiences you had and the knowledge gained by restoring your 65. Unbeknownst to you, I videoed you doing it, and I took your nice talk and starting selling copies on the internet. Now, these words were spoken in my house, since I own where they were uttered, according to your reasoning, I should own them and whatever copies I made.

But, I don't. It's called copyright. Anything you write down or communicate, any original thought, is owned by you. Not a forum, not a moderator of a forum. You cannot go onto your forum, take everyone's posts over the years, and make an Olds Compendium without their permission, and if you do, you can be sued for the proceeds.

Just because you own someplace doesn't mean you can change the law. Americans get real pissed when you try that on them; it was true in Revolution, and it's true now with that land grab out on that cattle farmer's ranch. Inline Tube cannot control the content on their forum legally, unless it violates their ToS, in which all they can do is ban people. Now, if someone were to LIBEL and SLANDER Inline Tube, then they could sue, but the problem was, everything said about them was true. I hold one of the main people against Inline Tube in high regard, so I'll side with him on this.

To answer your last point, if I put **** on this site, I'd be banned. That's not a copyright issue. Now, if I made a beautiful painting of a nude lady, put it up for people to enjoy, and the mods here copied it and used it for a site logo with Classic Olds over her bits and pieces, I could sue, because that's copyright abuse.

I hope that helps.

2blu442

I don't fully agree with you but appreciate your calm level head in looking at this. Can we all agree to let the SuperModerator resolve this? Can we stop the back and forth of this thread and let the two parties make their cases and work through this with Dan?

John

2blu442

Koda you can contact Dan without making a public statement like this.

I deleted your post because it was stirring the pot. If you have a problem with any moderator including me contact Dan. Don't start the mob action of " I don't like him either"

76olds

I think they should put wal-mart brakes on grocery carts !!! Jus sayin .

coppercutlass

I think we should be able to talk about this as a community . Much like board meetings in towns I think this kind of interaction is important to resolve conflicts while we are on the subject of conflicts.

kevin.horton

I think I'm in trouble....my Dad, when he painted his car, had the Chebby stripes painted on the trunk as well. I got the car after he passed away, and fixed it back up. I'm not going to remove the stripes. I can't afford what the new paint would cost, and I want to leave it as it was when he was alive. Is it any less of an Olds because of that? Just askin'. It has the original rocket in it though.

2blu442

I disagree, and you can talk it over with Dan. But we're not going to be productive if everyone starts dumping on one person.

barnfind

Having read the thread in question. What I read yesterday was nothing any worse than any other threads posted on CO. I agree with the above statement in that it should be elevated up. How things like this are dealt with affects how people of this site will continue, or not. It takes 2 to tango.

Koda

With all due respect, that was not the right thing to do. We need some reform here, how would you recommend going about it? Sounds like the consensus is public accountability.

billmerbach

I agree we won't be productive bashing one person but would we not be productive as what copper said just sitting down and discussing things out?

2blu442

You think we need reform here, then follow the process of contacting the SuperModerator, Dan (oldsguy)

A mob can sound like a consensus but still end up lynching someone inappropriately.

oldstata

This sounds like a great idea as I have been reading threw this and it's seems like the verdict is split evenly on how this should be resolved

Just my opinion

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

Paint is paint, but when you start changing the powertrain...................that's all I am going to say. Delete this thread so we can move on. We are getting nowhere with this thread, digging up wounds all it's doing

815Cutlass1972

If I'm apart of a consensus mob then I'm done here. Tell my great grandfather about a lynching and a mob!!!! Bad comparison man!

2blu442

No offense intended. I was thinking of the last time I saw Gunsmoke and the mob tried to lynch somebody until Marshall Dillion stepped in. As I said in the reply to your last post, I think its overdue to stop the back and forth and let the SuperMod resolve the initial conflict.

John

nicks1966

with all do respect John That last post was way out of line.
as for the other if one gets three day, both get three days.
Nick

Koda

I'm not sure I'm making my point here. One on one, no member can get anywhere with a moderator because the member has no power. The only reason this is a thing is because a large group of people are upset. If people weren't upset, the abuse just would have been swept under the rug. If I talked to Dan and said "hey, we need to be able to pick the mods so we don't get any bad apples." he could just blow me off, but, if a bunch of people called for it in an open thread, and it didn't happen, then it wouldn't be pushed under the rug.

Transparency leads to accountability. We need to be able to call out mod abuse in an open forum to avoid it happening again. Privately messaging someone is not transparent, because the membership cannot hold the moderators accountable if they're blown off because no one knows about it.

No one here is advocating lynching anyone, just that it is inappropriate for a certain person to be a moderator based on conduct and choices.

coppercutlass

I don't think we are really dumping on anyone it may seem waysided but the truth is the members here feel that was a bad call and they feel it was use of power inappropriately whether its up for debate or not the matter of the fact is the memebers have spoken in a general manner by telling us that this is not the place to do that you essentially are saying we are not capable of finding a solution to a problem as a community. So hypothetically we should only consult one engine professional , one paint pro , one body pro because in all off those sections of the board there will be disagreement., so instead of having people debate and come to a conclusion on what we feel is right just deal with one person ? Im sorry but if this is a community then I think the user should have a little say in certain situations. If not then the sense of brotherhood is gone and there will be resentment specially when someone feels that someone is misusing their power.

2blu442

Nick, I'm trying to calm things down. We had one member who also had a problem with the moderator and started down that path. I don't want this thread to resort to members finding offenses to dredge up. There is a process in place. If anyone has a problem with any moderator they can first talk with that moderator. If they feel that its not resolved to their satisfaction they can go to the supermoderator.

coppercutlass

That's like telling the president he is doing a horrible job. He will probably just tell you what have you done to be in my seat and just shrug it off. I think in the members as in all us our best tool is some form of agreement. much like a petition where we will have power in numbers. But it seems the hierarchy has spoken and we have no say since our position is much lower.

Boldsmobile

Was anything done about the post below? Seems to be in violation of user conduct to me.

70cutty

Personally I have no problem with Chevy swap. It's your car do whatever pleases you. I wouldn't do it but to each his own. However I have seen a lot worse arguments and attacks between members with no consequences. I don't think this was fair to f-85. Jmo for whatever is worth.

69ishHoliday

When I joined this forum, oldcutlass answered several of my questions and provided some valuable computing tools for tire size etc. This was even before he became a moderator and his help was appreciated by me.
That said, if what I read of his PM is accurat it included taunting and that is not acceptable behavior for a moderator and shouldn't be overlooked here. - Steven