Macadoo

Prime the system before I disassemble the valve train? Or are we talking before the first start? That I was aware of.

MDchanic

Before the first time you start the newly assembled engine.

- Eric

Professur

I just pull the coil wire and spin the starter a few times. I'll even do that if the car's just been sitting for any real length of time.

Macadoo

Good info, thanks.
As far as the valve train components go, don't they need to go to the machine shop with the heads for hot-tanking?

oldcutlass

No, just the heads. You can clean all the valve train components with your choice of parts cleaner.

coppercutlass

Prof. I'm sorry but that is not a good way to prelube and engine that is fresh. You needs to prelube the engine with a drill before firing it up untill oil comes out the pushrods. Very crucial that this is done then the cam break in. Procedure.

Macadoo

Thanks oldcutass. While we're on the subject of first starts (even though that's a few months off) it sounds like a high-anxiety time. Cam break-in is crucial...but what if it doesn't want to start? I'll have a lot of untested components, including an HEI ignition, a newly rebuilt carburator with electric choke (I know how to hook it up), and a new alternator. What's the procedure exactly? Prime the oil system, fill the float bowl with fuel, charge the battery, set [static?] timing? And if it starts, keep it revved above 2k rpm? And if my rod doesn't have a tac?

coppercutlass

If you install everything correct it should start within a few turns. It takes a few to get fuel to the carb. If you don't have a tach buy a cheap dwell meter it goes up tp 2 k or a timing light with a tach in it or tach probe from ahrbor freight. The cam can turn over a few times it's when you do a lot of dry crancing that you smear off the assembly lube. Usually my engines fire up with in a few crancks but I have a holley and I pre fill the fuel bowls for a quick start.

oldcutlass

Mac, I know a lot will disagree, but IMHO don't worry unnecessarily on the minor cranking to get the engine to fire. The cam lube will take care of that. In the old days, we would just drive the car for cam break in. Take a leisurely drive on the highway and keep the car at varying speeds from 50-60 mph for the first 50-100 miles with no heavy acceleration.

coppercutlass

Oldcutlass I don't disagree but there are a few things that can go wrong during break in. Leaks, steam pockets un coling system, wiring bugs, driveability issues. In a perfect world and maybe some here ca do it that way but I know I my swap meet 355 build I had a leaking endrail and some carb tuning to do. A friend of mine broke a cam in his chebby that way. It was fine but a lot of little things can go wrong and having it stationary imo proves to be cheaper than a tow bill.

Macadoo

No heavy acceleration? But...but...but....

Lol, just kidding. I understand the break-in procedures.

Macadoo

Trying to free the lifters right now, they're pretty stuck. Spraying them with carb cleaner and working them in and out.

coppercutlass

They may have a ridge on them at the bottom I usually just push em down into the oil pan then retrieve them once I drop the pan or just push em through and catch em.

oldcutlass

You can use a hooked dental probe or needle nose pliers on the locking wire to twist and pull them out. I just move them up and down with penetrant until they slide out.

Macadoo

I wasn't sure if I could push them through but some channel locks and Deep Creep gotter' done. I have the cam out too. Anything I should look for or clean before sliding the new cam in?

MDchanic

Personally, I've never had a problem pulling lifters with a lifter tool, like one of these:



They generally come out with a couple of good yanks.

As for starting, don't worry about it.
These engines want to run, and as long as you put it together right, it should start almost instantly as soon as you crank it.
Then just set your idle screw to 2,000 RPM and let 'er rip, while watching the gauges and the engine for any problems.

One thing i would recommend is that you take a good clear picture of your timing set before you button it up, in case you have second thoughts later on and think maybe you set it wrong. Looking at the picture is a lot easier than taking the motor apart to see

- Eric

oldstata

Post some pics please

67 Cutlass Freak

[QUOTE
I wasn't sure if I could push them through but some channel locks and Deep Creep gotter' done. I have the cam out too. Anything I should look for or clean before sliding the new cam in? ][/QUOTE]

Throw the lifters in the trash. Always use new lifters with a new cam. You should have the machine shop clean the block, install new cam bearings and freeze plugs. Cleanliness is crucial in assembly. If your going to go that far you may also want to consider some oiling system modifications that can help your Olds live a long and happy life. There's a lot of simple things you can do with a die grinder like opening up the oil return hole at the front of the engine from the lifter valley, or enlarging the oil return holes in the heads or match porting the oil pump to the rear main cap. Milan has some very serious modifications, not for the novice. I believe he's close to central Illinois. He's a real good guy, and very knowledgeable on Olds. Here's a thread on HPO he wrote about oil system mods-
http://highperformanceolds.com/phpbb....php?f=1&t=202

Sugar Bear

The slide hammer type lifter tools recommended would work well. I have seen ones that use alot of force via threads to pull the lifter. If that much force is needed the lifter bore could be damaged while being pulled through as a result of a mushroomed bottom on the lifter.

A method to avoid this when doing a cam and lifters only without pulling the pan, is to pull the stubborn lifter up enough so that it does not fall and perhaps nylon tie it (idea of a CO member) and remove the camshaft. Next slide a cardboard tube or the box the cam came in cut lengthwise into the place of the cam and push the lifter down into the tube. The tube just prevents the lifter from dropping into the pan.

Macadoo

Look Ma! No heads!

[IMG][/IMG]

The cam journals look pretty good, like I know what I'm looking for. No scoring that I can see. The lobes are worn a little. The water jacket is a little crummy though, with one of the passages into the heads completely blocked, although not with a thick layer, just a thin film. It does look to me like there was a head gasket leak at one time. Just kinda' sludgy, like antifreeze mixed with oil. But I can't be sure. The oil in the crankcase didn't look like it though. Maybe it was stop-leak. The radiator was leaking a little before I pulled it.
The cylinder walls look great. There's the thinnest ring of carbon around the top but I can barely feel it with my finger.
Eric, I looked for a lifter tool locally but nobody had one and I didn't want to wait. They came out fine, I just didn't realize how tight they would be.
Thanks for the link Freak. I'll give it a read. I have new lifters and springs to go with the new cam.

M-14

You can test a whole hei distributor for spark off of an engine, all you need is a 12v battery, spark plug, ign wire, & some jumper leads. Hook the positive side to the batt. terminal on the coil cover & the neg. side to the distributor body & spark plug. The turn the distributor gear & watch for sparks. Make sure that you wear gloves.

Macadoo

Good idea M14, thanks :-)

Macadoo

Thanks for the tip Eric. I'm already having second thoughts. I know I set the timing marks pointing at each other before removing the gears and I remember having my finger over the spark plug hole and felt the air pressure. But I wanted to double check tonight and realized I can't. I can, of course, see the #1 piston at the top of the bore but am I thinking of this correctly...with the cam out there is no compression or exhaust stroke? The crank gear is keyed so I can put the gear on, point it at the cam, put the cam in and line the mark up with the crank, and I'm good to go, yes?

Sugar Bear

Mac, If the cam and cam gear are not in yet it cannot be out of time because as you said there is not an exhaust/compression stroke. Just line the marks up properly when installing the chain and take the picture, it is an excellent suggestion. You could even post the picture if you want a member to check it. Keep up the good work!!!

Your work is impressive, glad to hear that there is only minimal ridge on the cylinder walls.

Macadoo

Impressive? Lol, let's hold off on that judgement until after it fires up and doesn't explode. Thanks for verifying my thoughts on the gears Sugar Bear, it gives me emotional security

MDchanic

Gently remove the carbon with a solvent like GumOut and something hard, but non-abrasive, and see how much of a ridge there is in the metal. That'll tell you how worn the engine really is.

I'm assuming from the side view that those are low compression pistons - what cut mark is on their front edges?

- Eric

Macadoo

Something hard but not abrasive? Have any suggestions?
I noticed the pistons have a depression on the fronts, like someone took out a chunk with their thumbnail. Is that what you're asking? And are we heading for a great big MAW with the question?

I'll get a close-up pic of the pistons in a little while. I have to take the wife to breakfast. And if I'm correct, I think the Bob Evans is right down the street from the machine shop where I'm dropping my heads. Go figure

oldcutlass

When you drop off the heads, why not ask them what they would charge to rebuild your short block. It would be money well spent since it's out.

MDchanic

Piece of wood, wire brush, nylon dish scrubber...


Is it half-round or V-shaped.
Sounds half-round, which is low-compression, as expected.

Wouldn't it be nice if they were high compression...

- Eric

coppercutlass

Fwiw I had a shop quote me 750 - 850 for a short block refreshening if everything was within specs withinin the allowable factory high and low limits

Lars

a green dish scrubie works well for removing carbon crap from the cylinders. I just read throu all 8 pages of your project and I am impressed when a novice "goes for it". your doing fine. one concern I have is about your exhaust wants, if your going through the trouble of headers on your project you should address some head issues that have not been mentioned. The exhaust center devider is not flush with the face of the head, most people have this welded or braised by a shop, the other option is make a clip that will flush the chambers.


I made this out of a chunk of 3/8 flat stock. once "fit" the header itself will hold it in place.

the other was mentioned, crossover fill, you could fill the crossovers separating the 2 ports and then drill a 3/8 hohe to ONE exhaust port to keep the egr working. All this is not mandatory, it will sound and perform better if all this is done. Even if your going to run stock manifolds I would fill the crossovers




do what you want, too may cooks spoil the broth, its your car

Lars

since everybody likes pictures heres a bunch to suck up band with

Lars

on another note I see you purchased a cam and springs from MR. EFI, good choice! I would concider have the machine shop assemble or measure your valve springs installed hight for proper spring seat preassure, you said you have a 71 motor, should be 7 heads uneven spring pockets, rotators and non rotators. i'm not a fan of the edelbrock chaine unless it was recommended buy your cam guy.

Macadoo

I talked the the machine shop about rebuilding my short block. If everything checked out it sounded to be about 1k + parts. A little rich for my blood. I'll give it some thought. On the other hand, they would hot tank the block, hone the cylinders, install cam bearings, and resurface for about $150 + the price of the bearings. That would leave me with rings, rod bearings, and main bearings? Would I need to replace the piston pins? Could I have them take a little more off the block and heads to gain a little more compression without springing for new pistons? But then I'd have to have the new performer intake milled as well if I'm thinking of the correct geometry.
I dunno' man, I need time to think. When I got home I wiped down the ridge at the top of one of the cylinders, taking off the carbon and there is a ridge, but just barely. I would estimate maybe half the thickness of regular notebook paper.
Lars, nice to meet you and thanks for chiming in. What bugs you about the edel timing set? It seems robust. And yeah, I took the new springs to the machine shop for install.

Macadoo

Yup, half round.

Macadoo

Oh, and I meant to ask; these #7 heads, do they have hardened seats or no? I thought I read on here somewhere that they do

67 Cutlass Freak

If you check out this chart I posted on ROP-
http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic2710-20.html
you will see they installed #7 heads in 1971 & 1972. The 1971 versions did not have hardened seats, but the 1972 versions did.

Macadoo

Darn, so close.

MDchanic

Don't worry about it. For the vast majority of people, it's irrelevant.

Unless you're planning on doing a lot of full-throttle track runs, or a lot of towing, hardened seats should never be an issue.

- Eric

Lars

I agree