Macadoo

I'm getting ready to pull the 350 out of my '71 CS, this weekend (fingers crossed). I have everything disconnected but the trans. Question: to access the torque converter bolts, do I need to put the trans in neutral in order to turn the flexplate? Should I take out all the plugs to make it easier to turn? Or am I way off base here? I have the car on a floor jack and a couple of good jack stands and the rear wheels chocked but it still makes me a little nervous to lie underneath.
I'm not pulling the trans with the motor. It's in good shape other than a small leak at the speedo cable. I will have a look at the front seal though, while the motor's out.

M-14

You can turn the engine over in park, in fact that's what the engine does when you start it. Make sure you support the trans with a floor jack, the tranny mount wont hold it up very well.

oldcutlass

Mac, work smart not hard. The trans is so much easier to deal with if you pull it with the engine. All you need to disconnect is the shifter linkage, modulator vacuum line, and the trans mount. Then everything comes out at once. Just some advice.

Then you can take care of the leaks yourself, or send it over to a shop and let them go through it.

Professur

Two tools that are seriously useful at this point ...

http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/.../photo_04.html for holding and turning the flexplate to get the TC bolts. You can do it with a breaker bar on the crank pulley .. but this is just soooo much easier.

http://www.harborfreight.com/transmi...ool-98060.html To stop you pouring trans oil everywhere when you tilt the trans with the yoke out. No matter that you've drained it ... it'll still embarrass you without this. Or you can tape a rubber glove over the end. That works, but then you've got a rubber glove full of oil to deal with.

The links are representative only and are in no way an endorsement for that particular tool. Just the first ones that popped up on Google.

oldcutlass

He can pull the spark plugs and turn the engine with the harmonic balancer /crank bolt and a breaker bar and socket.

I agree on bagging or rubber gloving the tail shaft of the trans to keep the mess down.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Wow, i need to do this too over the winter so i'm subscribing to this thread.

joe_padavano

No matter whether you pull the engine with the trans or leave the trans in the car, working "smarter" means that you still need to disconnect the torque converter to flexplate bolts BEFORE you pull the motor and trans. It's pretty difficult to get them out with the motor/trans combo sitting on the garage floor, and it's not too smart trying to do it by reaching under them while they are hanging from a spindly engine hoist.

oldcutlass

I've never had (knocking on wood) any issues removing the torque converter bolts with an engine and trans hanging from a good engine hoist. I support the trans on a some blocks to keep everything from swinging around. I usually have an extra set of hands available.

I hate laying under a car on my back doing that stuff, just saying.

Professur

You Sir, are graced with a gift that never appears for me. The only time I have extra hands about ... they're more distraction than useful.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

How much more painful is it to remove the engine and transmission as a group?

Would one need to remove the rad and front clip?

Professur

Not painful ... awkward. To do it solo you really need an engine tilter. (Yes I'm a tool ****, sue me).
With a couple of pals you can manhandle it ... it's always better with the front clip gone. But solo you can disconnect the tranny with the car on stands, haul it out from underneath by the tail ... and haul the engine straight up (after removing the hood). No need to pull the core support, fenders or even the rad.

oldcutlass

You need to remove the radiator either way. I've done it both with the nose on and off. Obviously with the nose off it's much easier.

MDchanic

You can get away with leaving the radiator in place if just pulling the engine, if you are very confident, but I always remove the few extra screws and pull it, just to be sure.

I leave the condenser in place, though.

I personally prefer to leave the trans. in the car, but it really just depends on your personal preferences and what facilities you have. I don't mind maneuvering the engine around to fit into the trans., but it would drive some people crazy.

- Eric

Sugar Bear

Once the torque converter is unbolted push it back gently until it seats against the front pump, then measure the distance between the front of the transmission pan and one of the torque converter bolt mounting flanges. This will allow you to tell if the converter is properly seated on re-install, the distance should be the same on reinstall. On re-install once the transmission and block are bolted together, pull the converter forward and bolt it in place. If the converter is not properly seated it will be difficult to connect the transmission to the block. Pulling it together with bolts will break the front pump.

The converter is quite heavy and nothing holds it in, do not let it slide out and fall. If it lands on you it will hurt alot. A combination wrench with the closed end bolted to the bell housing through one of the bell housing bolt holes and the open end against the converter makes a nice "keeper" and should work unless the tranny is tilted nose down alot.

pogo69

i have a 1'' dia pipe that fits on the inside lip of the fender against the cowl and use a couple coat hanger thru the upper two tranny to engine holes, it keeps it pulled up just right to keep the converter still attached

Macadoo

Oh wow, uhh thanks guys. All this info is pretty awesome. I've been dealing with midterms and students all day so this was nice to come home to.
Oldcutlass, I know your feelings about pulling them as a unit. But because of the limitations of my space, it would be a LOT harder. So I'm biting the bullet and laying underneath. I'll have a look at the front seal but the Speedo hookup is leaking way more fluid than I thought possible so I think it's that seal. Also, although i have a concrete floor, it's heavily textured and the hoist is going be somewhat difficult to roll with just the motor.
And yes, I owe you all a big DUH. I guess at 6:00 this morning I had forgotten the engine actually DOES turn over in park, ugh.
I already have the crank bolt out and the pulley off. It's okay to reinstall the bolt to turn the engine over, yes?
The radiator is out, the condenser is still in. Water pump is off along with all accessories including AC.
I plan to strap the trans in place because I'll need to roll the car a few feet after the engine is removed (the space thing again) but was going to use sculpture wire (a heavy gauge) and a couple of bolts to hold the TC.
I was planning on marking the TC and flexplate. Someone here, I wish i could remember who, said they should go back together the same way.
Will it be possible to remove the TC while laying on my back without breaking some ribs? How heaving is that thing?
Lastly, I kind of have a lot of threads going for different things about the same car. Should I start a build thread instead?

Professur

Yes, it's possible .. but not pleasant. It's not that heavy ... but it's the lack of leverage that gets you ... and then the added pleasure of spilled oil .. oh joy. Bring a friend to share the moment, ... misery loves company. Be warned ... when you separate the trans from the motor, the motor is going to tip back. I used a pair of jacks, one under the oil pan, the other under the trans as I pulled them apart. You could use some lumber for cribbing instead.

remembered a trick .. if you haven't already yanked the hood. Take a small twist drill and drill a small hole through each hinge plate into the bottom of the hood for easy alignment when putting it back on.

MDchanic

Once you have the three converter screws off and the converter popped backward against the transmission, the converter really should in no way be connected to the engine.
The transmission is connected to the engine by six bolts and two alignment pins, but the converter is just sitting in the transmission, so there should be no need to remove it from the car - just separate the engine and transmission, and the converter stays with the trans. If you keep the trans from leaning down on the front side by placing a pile of 2x6s under it while the engine is attached, the converter should stay put just fine, and if you want to remove it, you can do so whilst comfortably seated on the crossmember when the engine is out.

I'd say the converter weighs 20 to 30 pounds (it contains about 5 quarts of oil).

- Eric

Macadoo

Oh, for real? 20-30? I can handle that okay I think, especially seated in the bay. The only reason i want it out is to have a look-see at the front seal. It's supposed to be brand-new but I'm having some trust issues these days, lol.
Professur, the motor will tip back when I remove the last screw? Or when I pull the motor away with the hoist? I plan on ratcheting the trans up pretty tight before I go to work on those screws but I assume it will drop some as the strap stretches, etc. Okay to strap under trans pan or should I go in front of the pan?
Now I've read and watched videos about making sure the TC is installed on both splines, making sure there is no room behind (on re-install) but didn't realize I'd have to pull it forward a little to attach to the flex plate. Are we talking inches or millimeters?
Lastly, for the motor mounts; disconnect from the block or the frame first? And from above or lying underneath?
I apologize for my inexperience and the many questions. I just want to do it right, and not get hurt in the process.

MDchanic

The direction that the motor will tip in will depend on where you have attached the chains and where you have set the hook.
A tilting device, like this: will help you set the motor at the anle that you'd like.

The engine will swing free when lifted and disengaged from the two pins on the transmission.

The strap is fine under the transmission pan. If you want to be extra careful you can put a piece of plywood under the pan.

The distance from the rearward to the forward position of the converter is probably about half an inch.

To disconnect the motor mounts, you get under the car and remove the nuts from the two long, relatively small diameter bolts (sorry, I don't remember the sizes), one on each side of the engine. The nuts are about two sizes larger than the bolt heads are.
Once the nuts are off of the bolts, you slide the bolts out and the motor mounts are disconnected.
There should be no stress on the bolts in normal operation, so they should just slide out (and back in again) without lifting the engine.

- Eric

Professur

When I'm unbolting the trans .. i start with the top bolts and work down.... the bottom two are the ones dealing with the leverage and holding the weight of the engine. You want to have no weight on those two when you start undoing them. If as you loosen them you notice the gap spreading ... your support isn't carrying the weight properly. A little spread at the top is ok.

Remember than when you take several hundred pounds off the front suspension ... it's going to lift the entire front end .... and if your trans is supported on blocks ... it's going to change angle.

pogo69

I use a lifting plate that i attach to carb mounting studs lits up nice and easy

RetroRanger

you can get the tilter at advanceauto and other places for about $40.

I had to lift my motor to access the motor mount bolts as the mounts were so compressed they shrouded the bolts

Macadoo

MD, tilter apparently comes with the hoist when rented. Sorry, I should have mentioned that. Good call on the plywood, and I think I have a piece of 1x4 pine which might be a little softer.
1/2 an inch for the converter. Got it.
Professur, again, thanks for the advice.
Pogo, I thought about the plate but since the rental comes with eveything....
Retro, I guess I'll find out about those mounts when I get there. I'm 99.9% sure they've never been changed.
Last question and then I think I'm good to go: I've here that some folks just use intake bolts to attach the tilter (etc) to the block, or even accessory bracket bolts. Won't I need grade 8 for this? And would anyone know the size? I can feel the holes in the back of the block but I don't seem to have that size laying around.
And the engine stand to block bolts? Same question; grade 8 and what size? I assume the stand bolts to the bell housing area of the block.
Now, if I can just get through the next two days of exams and reviews.

Professur

On both of my floor jacks, I removed the metal saddle and replaced it with a centre drilled piece of 2x12. Gives plenty of room for wrapping straps across. Only problem is that it's entire balance is held by one centre bolt so the load really has to stay centred.

MDchanic

Mac, you can use the intake or the accessory bolts.
I prefer the accessory bolts, because the force is at a right angle to the threads, but either will work.

Grade 8 bolts are great, but why not use the perfectly good bolts that were already holding on your accessories?
Use the shortest ones so that they pull up tight (so they won't bend).

All of the intake and accessory bolts are 5/16" coarse, if I recall, though I may not recall correctly.
I believe that the engine bolts are 3/8" coarse.
You'll need some very long ones to go through the engine stand ears, and also a handful of washers in case they're too long.

- Eric

pogo69

I agree with MD about the bolts, factory are fine and i dont believe think the service manual advises otherwise....now, some people like to be very cautious and put their mind at ease and use higher grade bolts especially watching over 600lbs being lifting up over the car and saying '' i hope nothin breaks''

Macadoo

So in essence, a few dollars worth of grade 8 bolts might spare me an ulcer? Hmm, but still, a few busck is a few bucks. I'll think about this one. But for the engine stand? Grade 8, yes? Considering the size required for those, might be talkin' more than a few bucks. I'll have a look. I should have measured before I left the house this morning. Then again, it was 6:00 AM.

MDchanic

I'd use Grade 8 on the stand. They're not holding the weight from above, but from one side, against leverage.

They go into the block about 3/4". Or was it 1"?
Something like that.
Get washers.

- Eric

pogo69

the stand has those steel sleeves the bolts go thru so you cant get longer bolts and use some washers if you have to but you want to thread them as far in as you can... grade 8 is def. good ulcer medicine

MDchanic

I dunno - on my stand (OTC brand) I use stacks of washers all the time, as I am not about to get a whole lot of different bolts.

- Eric

pogo69

Sorry I meant CAN get longer bolts and use washers. My fingers are too big to type on my phone

MDchanic

Ha ha. Mine too. Sometimes I have to use my pinky.

- Eric

Macadoo

Wait, I thought EVERYONE'S fingers were too big to type on a phone.
I got the the trans strapped up tonight, and the TC to flex plate screws out. Really wasn't a big deal to turn the crankshaft bolt, even with the plugs still in.
Anyone know if the trans to block bolts/screws are all the same length? I can pull one and measure it, add the stand tube length, go a little longer and buy washers. Regular or fender and do they need to be G8?

Macadoo

Oh, and I even remembered to mark the TC and plate with paint. Tester's gold paint was what I had laying around

MDchanic

All of the trans. screws are the same length. Just measure the thickness of the transmission, subtract the from the bolt length, then add the thickness of the stand mounts.
I don't think the regular bolts come close to bottoming, though, so you may be able to add another 1/4" at least.

Regular-proportioned washers should be fine (those would be BIG fender washers).

I don't think they make washers in grades, at least not for mere mortals.

- Eric

Macadoo

Lol, thanks Eric. I'm feeling more mortal all the time. I'm nervous but really excited to have the engine out where I can work on it proper.

Macadoo

I actually did this before popping off the hood. I used a 3/16" bit and made a couple of L-pins out of 3/16" steel rod. I'm hoping it helps.
Do most folks replace the tattered insulation blanket attached to the underneath or just leave it off and paint?

MDchanic

Depends on where you fall on the Rat — — — — — Restoration spectrum.

- Eric

Macadoo

Rat-------------------Budget---------------Restoration

Somewhere in the middle

How about where the hood hinges attach to the car? Do I need to drill locator pins there as well or do they self-locate? I'd like to pull them off, clean and paint.