Cutlass Timing Gear project:
April 15th, 2015, 06:13 AM
#1
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
Cutlass Timing Gear project:
Cutlass Timing Gear project:
For my winter / spring project, I am going to attempt to replace timing gears and other aging stuff that I can easily access on my 71 Cutlass Supreme (350 4bbl).
The engine has never been opened and still has all of its original internal parts, including the nylon covered timing gear.
The good news in the engine only has 30k original miles.
The bad news is, I have never done this before.
This springs goals:
· Radiator(Install a new core in the existing radiator)
· Replace aluminum water pump with an Iron version
· Replace timing gears and chain
· Replace any easy to access, leaking gaskets
· Replace Power Steering lines
· Replace all hoses.
Radiator Story:
Its original, it’s old, its corroding and the engine runs hot over 210 when the AC is on. The clutch fan is also bad too, which will be replaced.
I found a local radiator shop in Lowell Ma. The building looked old and very rundown. Since the place looked a mess, I was hoping the guy had the Age and experience to do the work but was not sure.
The owner took one look at my radiator and said “Gee, that looks like a GM radiator from a Cutlass!” followed by “I use to have a 1970 Cutlass, etc.”
OK, I knew I was in the right place.
$600 later the radiator was completed in 24 hours. I kept the original Tanks and all of the ID tags and clips from the old radiator and just had the center copper core replaced with a 115 tube core vs. the sock 90 tube core.
The Lead solder alone cost $30.00.
Water Pump Story:
When I bought the car in 2011, I knew the factory original water pump was going to need to be replaced next spring. I had time to research replacement pumps.
There are many different flavors for my car. Some are very cheap low quality knock offs. After doing a lot of research I got a bad one. I did get the correct length fan shaft (three sizes, I needed the longest 2.75” shaft) and the correct water Impeller style (Open Impeller = Bad, Closed Impeller = Good).
However, I got the wrong metal, Aluminum, instead of Iron.
After 2 years and 6,000 miles, the aluminum water pump I had installed in 2012, began to leak when the RPM was over 3,500 and would stop when I slowed down.
I called the manufacture “Acme (not their real name)” of the pump and politely told them about the problem. They said their aluminum pumps never have that problem and it was now out of warranty. The company did not sell an Iron version pump for my car. The company suggested I call their recommended reseller “Summit Racing” and buy a new pump.
I called “Summit Racing” and told the clerk I wanted a pump for a 1971 Cutlass, with a 2.75” shaft and closed impeller. I told him that only Acme seems to sell the “Closed Impeller”. I did not tell the clerk that I already owned a bad Acme pump.
The clerk then said, “You can’t use an aluminum Acme pump on a car that is placed storage for periods of time. Because the tension of the fan belts pulls on the pump shaft and the soft aluminum housing will cause shaft seals to leak”.
Wow, that’s exactly what happened. It’s nice to get an honest clerk.
The clerk found a pump from a different company made from Iron, with the hard to find Closed-Impeller. The pump cost about $50 more than the Acme pump.
I’ll find out in a few weeks if it works.
Timing Gears and Chain:
Since I am replacing the Radiator and the water pump, I am most of the way to the timing gears and chain. I might as well keep going and replace my 45 year old Nylon gears.
I also remove the Power Steering pump, alternator and removed most of the bolts for the Oil pan. At last I had finally made it to the Timing cover.
A friend of mine came over with his set of tools for removing the balancer and hour later we had the huge Crank-shaft balancer bolt safely out of the engine.
The huge crank bolt had not been moved in 45 years. I had to use a 4 foot pipe attached to the ratchet in order to get enough leverage to turn the bolt.
The rest of the project should be straight forward.
With the Balancer removed, I was able to remove the timing cover completely. The 45 year old Nylon teeth appear to be perfectly intact. The chain is still very loose so it was a good idea pull the cover and start the process of replacing the two gears and matching chain.
Questions:
What should I use for Lubrication and sealers when I start to put it back together?
Gasket sealers?
Do I lubricate the Balancer Bolt or lock tight?
Are there any Bolts that need special treatment?
I plan on cleaning every nut and bolt I remove and repaint.
I purchased a full gasket kit from Fel-Pro. I plan on replacing all Easy Gaskets during the rebuilding process (with the exception of the Read-Main-Seal).
For my winter / spring project, I am going to attempt to replace timing gears and other aging stuff that I can easily access on my 71 Cutlass Supreme (350 4bbl).
The engine has never been opened and still has all of its original internal parts, including the nylon covered timing gear.
The good news in the engine only has 30k original miles.
The bad news is, I have never done this before.
This springs goals:
· Radiator(Install a new core in the existing radiator)
· Replace aluminum water pump with an Iron version
· Replace timing gears and chain
· Replace any easy to access, leaking gaskets
· Replace Power Steering lines
· Replace all hoses.
Radiator Story:
Its original, it’s old, its corroding and the engine runs hot over 210 when the AC is on. The clutch fan is also bad too, which will be replaced.
I found a local radiator shop in Lowell Ma. The building looked old and very rundown. Since the place looked a mess, I was hoping the guy had the Age and experience to do the work but was not sure.
The owner took one look at my radiator and said “Gee, that looks like a GM radiator from a Cutlass!” followed by “I use to have a 1970 Cutlass, etc.”
OK, I knew I was in the right place.
$600 later the radiator was completed in 24 hours. I kept the original Tanks and all of the ID tags and clips from the old radiator and just had the center copper core replaced with a 115 tube core vs. the sock 90 tube core.
The Lead solder alone cost $30.00.
Water Pump Story:
When I bought the car in 2011, I knew the factory original water pump was going to need to be replaced next spring. I had time to research replacement pumps.
There are many different flavors for my car. Some are very cheap low quality knock offs. After doing a lot of research I got a bad one. I did get the correct length fan shaft (three sizes, I needed the longest 2.75” shaft) and the correct water Impeller style (Open Impeller = Bad, Closed Impeller = Good).
However, I got the wrong metal, Aluminum, instead of Iron.
After 2 years and 6,000 miles, the aluminum water pump I had installed in 2012, began to leak when the RPM was over 3,500 and would stop when I slowed down.
I called the manufacture “Acme (not their real name)” of the pump and politely told them about the problem. They said their aluminum pumps never have that problem and it was now out of warranty. The company did not sell an Iron version pump for my car. The company suggested I call their recommended reseller “Summit Racing” and buy a new pump.
I called “Summit Racing” and told the clerk I wanted a pump for a 1971 Cutlass, with a 2.75” shaft and closed impeller. I told him that only Acme seems to sell the “Closed Impeller”. I did not tell the clerk that I already owned a bad Acme pump.
The clerk then said, “You can’t use an aluminum Acme pump on a car that is placed storage for periods of time. Because the tension of the fan belts pulls on the pump shaft and the soft aluminum housing will cause shaft seals to leak”.
Wow, that’s exactly what happened. It’s nice to get an honest clerk.
The clerk found a pump from a different company made from Iron, with the hard to find Closed-Impeller. The pump cost about $50 more than the Acme pump.
I’ll find out in a few weeks if it works.
Timing Gears and Chain:
Since I am replacing the Radiator and the water pump, I am most of the way to the timing gears and chain. I might as well keep going and replace my 45 year old Nylon gears.
I also remove the Power Steering pump, alternator and removed most of the bolts for the Oil pan. At last I had finally made it to the Timing cover.
A friend of mine came over with his set of tools for removing the balancer and hour later we had the huge Crank-shaft balancer bolt safely out of the engine.
The huge crank bolt had not been moved in 45 years. I had to use a 4 foot pipe attached to the ratchet in order to get enough leverage to turn the bolt.
The rest of the project should be straight forward.
With the Balancer removed, I was able to remove the timing cover completely. The 45 year old Nylon teeth appear to be perfectly intact. The chain is still very loose so it was a good idea pull the cover and start the process of replacing the two gears and matching chain.
Questions:
What should I use for Lubrication and sealers when I start to put it back together?
Gasket sealers?
Do I lubricate the Balancer Bolt or lock tight?
Are there any Bolts that need special treatment?
I plan on cleaning every nut and bolt I remove and repaint.
I purchased a full gasket kit from Fel-Pro. I plan on replacing all Easy Gaskets during the rebuilding process (with the exception of the Read-Main-Seal).
Last edited by Miles71; April 15th, 2015 at 07:18 AM. Reason: fixed vendor name
April 15th, 2015, 06:38 AM
#2
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Paulding ohio
Posts: 59
As far as lubricants you really shouldn't need anything (JMO), I use "the right stuff" but sparingly, very good stuff but when it dries it's very sticky and hard to remove, permatex also makes a good anaerobic sealer (blue tube red sealant, seals in the absence of air, no need for a gasket) good for the timing cover. No lube on the balancer bolt or locktite, torque it and that's it, update the oil pan seal with a good rubber one along with the valve covers, the old cork always seems to dry out and leak somewhere over time. Might also look at the oil pump while your that far and they do make a nice rear main seal but if yours isn't leaking. Might want to look at flowkooler for the water pump, I've got one and love it, dropped the temp about 15 degrees and lots of flow. Good luck sounds like fun!
April 15th, 2015, 06:58 AM
#3
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
I used a little assembly lube on my timing set before I buttoned it back up but I'm not sure it was required. I just had it right there since I replaced the cam and rockers, etc.
Make SURE you use the correct gasket for the water pump, and double check the fit. I thought I had the right one and it leaked. There was the slightest deviation from the sealing surface that I didn't notice and had to pull the pump a second time.
I also used brake cleaner on a rag to clean the silicone squeeze-out; also a bad idea. It ate away the sealer.
If you have the front cover off you should replace the front seal but with an engine with so few miles, I don't know that you need the crank sleeve.
Here is a link to a page on my build that might be helpful. It even includes all the mistakes, lol. Good luck. Love the car.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-motor-12.html
Make SURE you use the correct gasket for the water pump, and double check the fit. I thought I had the right one and it leaked. There was the slightest deviation from the sealing surface that I didn't notice and had to pull the pump a second time.
I also used brake cleaner on a rag to clean the silicone squeeze-out; also a bad idea. It ate away the sealer.
If you have the front cover off you should replace the front seal but with an engine with so few miles, I don't know that you need the crank sleeve.
Here is a link to a page on my build that might be helpful. It even includes all the mistakes, lol. Good luck. Love the car.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-motor-12.html
April 15th, 2015, 07:25 AM
#4
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
Correction:
The new water pump I purchased this year was from Summit racing, not Jeggs, sorry for the mistake.
BRA-1576, Water Pump, Mechanical, High-Volume, Iron, Natural, Oldsmobile, 350/455, Each $155.59
I also plan on using the “High Volume” version of the Fel-Pro gasket.
The Felpro gasket set cost $64 from Summit. It includes a full set of all common gaskets and seals, including Front and rear crank shaft seals.
Since I do not want to drop the transmission or pull the engine, I will skip the leaking Rear main seal this year. I want to have the car at car shows the first week of May 2015.
Other parts purchased,
Clutch Fan Thermal Control V8
Power Steering High-Pressure
Power Steering Return Hose Kit
Radiator Overhauled with new value
Radiator New Hoses
Timing Chain Cover plate
Timing gears and chain
Water Pump (Closed impeller)
Transmission Cooler Lines, regular metal
The new water pump I purchased this year was from Summit racing, not Jeggs, sorry for the mistake.
BRA-1576, Water Pump, Mechanical, High-Volume, Iron, Natural, Oldsmobile, 350/455, Each $155.59
I also plan on using the “High Volume” version of the Fel-Pro gasket.
The Felpro gasket set cost $64 from Summit. It includes a full set of all common gaskets and seals, including Front and rear crank shaft seals.
Since I do not want to drop the transmission or pull the engine, I will skip the leaking Rear main seal this year. I want to have the car at car shows the first week of May 2015.
Other parts purchased,
Clutch Fan Thermal Control V8
Power Steering High-Pressure
Power Steering Return Hose Kit
Radiator Overhauled with new value
Radiator New Hoses
Timing Chain Cover plate
Timing gears and chain
Water Pump (Closed impeller)
Transmission Cooler Lines, regular metal
April 15th, 2015, 12:05 PM
#5
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 13,807
Summit's application data shows that to fit the '68-'70 engines. FYI, the early 68-70 have a larger diameter hose nipple (2") than the later '71-up (1.75"). Check both your radiator and the water pump to make sure they are the same diameter.
April 15th, 2015, 05:28 PM
#6
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
Good Catch Fun71.
You’re correct, my Factory 71 Pump is 1.75” and the New pump I just got is 2.00 inches. It looks like I will need to substitute a 1970 Lower hoses for my current setup.
Pump on the Left is the New Pump for a 1970 with a 2" water input.
Pump on the Right is the 45 year old factory pump from my 1971 with a 1.75 " water input.
You’re correct, my Factory 71 Pump is 1.75” and the New pump I just got is 2.00 inches. It looks like I will need to substitute a 1970 Lower hoses for my current setup.
Pump on the Left is the New Pump for a 1970 with a 2" water input.
Pump on the Right is the 45 year old factory pump from my 1971 with a 1.75 " water input.
April 15th, 2015, 10:38 PM
#7
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 13,807
Since you had the original radiator recored it should be 1.5" diameter, but check to verify. Your simplest route may be to get a larger 1.75" diameter nipple installed on your radiator, or use one of the rubber sleeves to increase the diameter to fit the '70 hose.
I have always wondered if the early water pump with the larger inlet moved more water due to the larger volume of the internal passages and therefore had better cooling capability.
April 16th, 2015, 05:18 AM
#8
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
Hi Fun71:
I checked my lower radiator outlet pipe (outside diameter) and it is 1.50”.
A stock 71 lower radiator hose will convert 1.50” radiator to a 1.75” Pump.
In my system with a 1970 Pump and 1971 Radiator, I will need to convert from 1.50” at radiator to a 2.00” at the Pump.
If I use a 1971 L-hose, the radiator side fill fit perfectly and the Pump side will be over stretched by 1 / 4 Inch (which will fail over time).
If I used a 1970 L-hose, the radiator side will be 1/ 4 inch too loose and the Pump side will fit perfectly.
Interesting problem. I will need to look into 1 / 4 inch sleeve adapters, thank you for the tip. Time for more measurements.
You cooling capacity theory is interesting.
It appears that a 1970 Radiator / Pump combination could move more water than a 1971 Radiator / Pump combination.
In my configuration with a Radiator at 1.50” and Pump at 2.00”, I do not see any benefits. The limiting factor is the 1.50” radiator outlet volume limits. The smallest pipe will set your maximum flow limit, similar to an Exhaust system.
Last night progress was just cleaning and painting. The original balancer looks in good shape. The inner and outer rings still match the manufacture alignment marks and the rubber looks good between the two rings. I plan on re-using the original balancer and hardware.
I checked my lower radiator outlet pipe (outside diameter) and it is 1.50”.
A stock 71 lower radiator hose will convert 1.50” radiator to a 1.75” Pump.
In my system with a 1970 Pump and 1971 Radiator, I will need to convert from 1.50” at radiator to a 2.00” at the Pump.
If I use a 1971 L-hose, the radiator side fill fit perfectly and the Pump side will be over stretched by 1 / 4 Inch (which will fail over time).
If I used a 1970 L-hose, the radiator side will be 1/ 4 inch too loose and the Pump side will fit perfectly.
Interesting problem. I will need to look into 1 / 4 inch sleeve adapters, thank you for the tip. Time for more measurements.
You cooling capacity theory is interesting.
It appears that a 1970 Radiator / Pump combination could move more water than a 1971 Radiator / Pump combination.
In my configuration with a Radiator at 1.50” and Pump at 2.00”, I do not see any benefits. The limiting factor is the 1.50” radiator outlet volume limits. The smallest pipe will set your maximum flow limit, similar to an Exhaust system.
Last night progress was just cleaning and painting. The original balancer looks in good shape. The inner and outer rings still match the manufacture alignment marks and the rubber looks good between the two rings. I plan on re-using the original balancer and hardware.
April 17th, 2015, 04:57 AM
#9
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
Timing-cover upgrade:
The water pump is attached to the engine with 4x Bolts that go directly into the block (25 Pounds of Torque)
And, 4x Self-Taping screws that go into a few threads formed into the Timing-cover. These Self-Tapping screws can only support 13 pounds of Torque.
I never liked those 4x Self-Taping screws and I did blow-out the bottom gasket between those Self-Tapping screws, 250 miles after installing the Acme aluminum water pump. That failure was most likely because I used the gasket provided with the Acme water pump. I found out later the provide gasket was the “thin-Low volume” gasket and not the much wider Felpro “High Volume” gasket.
To correct this design defect, I drilled out the threads from the Timing-cover and replaced them with 4x Grade-5, 1” long, ¼ find thread bolt and Nut.
The Self-Taping screw is the same length as the new 1” Bolt nut combination. There are no clearance issues for any of the four new Nuts.
The new Bolts fit perfectly through the existing water pump holes (I have tested the bolts on 3 different CS water pumps).
I had a local muffler shop weld the nuts to the back of the Timing-cover. This way, I can now crank down the Torque on the new bolts to 15-18 pounds of torque.
And I always use the wider Felpro “High Volume” water pump gaskets.
I also noticed the bottom two Self-Tapping screws had a tendency to weep oil down the front of the Timing-cover. The Oil side of the Timing-cover is constantly bathed in oil when the engine is running. The oil will “wick” through the threads of the bottom screws and weep out the front of the Timing-cover.
When I install the new bottom bolts, I will apply a layer of Teflon tape to the threads. I will place the tape approximately 2-3 millimeters back from the very end of the bolt, so that no Teflon tape pops out from the end of the nut and falls into the oil pan.
The tape should help reduce any oil weeping from these new bolts.
Benefits:
· The Nut / Bolt combination is much stronger than the Self-Tapping screws and will be less likely to Strip when being properly torqued.
· You will get a tighter gasket seal between the pairs of bolts, especially at the weaker bottom gasket section.
· You can increase the bolt torque for these bolts to between 15-18 pounds without worrying about deforming a steel Timing-cover.
Water pump and timing cover (radiator side of cover, with new mounting bolts)
Engine / Oil side of Timing cover, with welded Nuts.
And, 4x Self-Taping screws that go into a few threads formed into the Timing-cover. These Self-Tapping screws can only support 13 pounds of Torque.
I never liked those 4x Self-Taping screws and I did blow-out the bottom gasket between those Self-Tapping screws, 250 miles after installing the Acme aluminum water pump. That failure was most likely because I used the gasket provided with the Acme water pump. I found out later the provide gasket was the “thin-Low volume” gasket and not the much wider Felpro “High Volume” gasket.
To correct this design defect, I drilled out the threads from the Timing-cover and replaced them with 4x Grade-5, 1” long, ¼ find thread bolt and Nut.
The Self-Taping screw is the same length as the new 1” Bolt nut combination. There are no clearance issues for any of the four new Nuts.
The new Bolts fit perfectly through the existing water pump holes (I have tested the bolts on 3 different CS water pumps).
I had a local muffler shop weld the nuts to the back of the Timing-cover. This way, I can now crank down the Torque on the new bolts to 15-18 pounds of torque.
And I always use the wider Felpro “High Volume” water pump gaskets.
I also noticed the bottom two Self-Tapping screws had a tendency to weep oil down the front of the Timing-cover. The Oil side of the Timing-cover is constantly bathed in oil when the engine is running. The oil will “wick” through the threads of the bottom screws and weep out the front of the Timing-cover.
When I install the new bottom bolts, I will apply a layer of Teflon tape to the threads. I will place the tape approximately 2-3 millimeters back from the very end of the bolt, so that no Teflon tape pops out from the end of the nut and falls into the oil pan.
The tape should help reduce any oil weeping from these new bolts.
Benefits:
· The Nut / Bolt combination is much stronger than the Self-Tapping screws and will be less likely to Strip when being properly torqued.
· You will get a tighter gasket seal between the pairs of bolts, especially at the weaker bottom gasket section.
· You can increase the bolt torque for these bolts to between 15-18 pounds without worrying about deforming a steel Timing-cover.
Water pump and timing cover (radiator side of cover, with new mounting bolts)
Engine / Oil side of Timing cover, with welded Nuts.
April 17th, 2015, 06:35 AM
#10
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Location: Melville, Saskatchewan
Posts: 8,940
I would bet the adaptors from the chrome universal hoses will work. I know Summit sells some seperate from the hoses. What brand timing chain? The rear main is best to replaced with a rubber version. It is a pain to remove the rope seal.
April 20th, 2015, 10:26 AM
#11
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Location: Chelmsford, Mass
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Hi Olds-307:
I am using an Edlebrock 7813 set of gears and chain.
Attached are some before and after shots.
Still a work in progress.
Above, the original gears.
Above the new set of gears.
I am using an Edlebrock 7813 set of gears and chain.
Attached are some before and after shots.
Still a work in progress.
Above, the original gears. Above the new set of gears.
April 26th, 2015, 12:31 PM
#12
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Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
Starter bracket question?
Starter bracket question?
Is this starter bracket required on a 1971 CS with factory air.?
When I removed the starter for a general cleanup, I found this bracket attached to the engine at the top. However there was No attachment to the starter at all.
I looked at the Service manual and it shows an additional small bracket and a bolt that goes into the back of the starter.
Questions:
Is this bracket really needed?
Since my starter does not have a bolt hole near this location, I can assume my starter is not original?
Other issues:
Who ever worked on this car last, installed the main 12 volt positive battery cable “Under” the starter bracket.
This caused a deep dent into the red insulation on the battery cable. Another year or so and it would have cut all the way through and shorted.
It looks like I will need to replace my positive original battery cable.
Any recommendations on who carries a good matching replacement?
What is the original Gauge of the factory cable and length?
Thanks,
Last edited by Miles71; April 26th, 2015 at 03:01 PM.
April 26th, 2015, 03:11 PM
#13
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Location: Chelmsford, Mass
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After a little searching, I did find this link about the brace.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ter-brace.html
I will leave off the brace for now. However I will install an extra ground wire to the
threaded terminal on the back of starter to a sold frame location.
FYI, I had a 1968 (427 ci) Vett at one time. If you did not install the brace, and
you had a bad engine starting session, the starter would just drop to the ground!
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ter-brace.html
I will leave off the brace for now. However I will install an extra ground wire to the
threaded terminal on the back of starter to a sold frame location.
FYI, I had a 1968 (427 ci) Vett at one time. If you did not install the brace, and
you had a bad engine starting session, the starter would just drop to the ground!
April 26th, 2015, 03:15 PM
#14
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Norfolk, Va
Posts: 1,365
The starter cable looks like it has been pinched, yes. But it doesn't look like it has been cut. Unless the insulation has been compromised you shouldn't have to replace it. If the insulation is still soft enough to flex, it should be ok. It is great that you found it and there is nothing wrong with replacing it, but that would be pretty low on the list if it were my car.
I really like your water pump/timing cover modification. I would like to use that on my own if I get the chance.
I really like your water pump/timing cover modification. I would like to use that on my own if I get the chance.
April 26th, 2015, 05:12 PM
#15
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 67
The extra little bracket is for a clutch return spring you don't have. The cable should go behind the starter brace but somebody positioned it wrong and it got pinched. I don't have the brace on my car anymore because you can't put the starter bolt in due to headers being in the way.
April 26th, 2015, 05:43 PM
#16
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Location: Chelmsford, Mass
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The cable on the car is the factory original, part number 8901056 HV (Red).
The previous owner, replaced the battery end with a stock bolt connector.
The Insulation has been damaged on both sides of the cable, where the mounting bracket pinched the cable. I can see copper wires though the damaged insulation.
I guess I was only a few weeks away from a catastrophic short.
I am glad i decided to pull the starter for a cleaning.
OPGI may have the cable, will call them in the morning.
The previous owner, replaced the battery end with a stock bolt connector.
The Insulation has been damaged on both sides of the cable, where the mounting bracket pinched the cable. I can see copper wires though the damaged insulation.
I guess I was only a few weeks away from a catastrophic short.
I am glad i decided to pull the starter for a cleaning.
OPGI may have the cable, will call them in the morning.
April 29th, 2015, 09:03 AM
#17
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Location: Chelmsford, Mass
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How can you tell if a Starter is original?
I have been surfing but cannot seem to find a list of what was used in my car.
While I am waiting on Parts and Tools I will clean / painting the starter.
Delco Starter, 1108427-9K14, Made in Canada
Date code = 9K14
Year = 1969
Month = K = October
Day = 14
Translated = 1969-October-14
The car was made in 1971-March, in Framingham MA.
I have been surfing but cannot seem to find a list of what was used in my car.
While I am waiting on Parts and Tools I will clean / painting the starter.
Delco Starter, 1108427-9K14, Made in Canada
Date code = 9K14
Year = 1969
Month = K = October
Day = 14
Translated = 1969-October-14
The car was made in 1971-March, in Framingham MA.
May 22nd, 2015, 05:25 PM
#18
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Location: Chelmsford, Mass
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How deep does the Harmonic Balancer need to go, when you crank it in?
I used a torque wrench and cranked it down to 170 pounds.
There seems to be a bit of space between the seal and the balance. Ill try to get a picture.
This car has AC. The crank pulley is about an 1/8" inch further away from the engine than the Power Steering pump pulley.
I used a torque wrench and cranked it down to 170 pounds.
There seems to be a bit of space between the seal and the balance. Ill try to get a picture.
This car has AC. The crank pulley is about an 1/8" inch further away from the engine than the Power Steering pump pulley.
May 22nd, 2015, 07:07 PM
#20
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Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
I installed the new gear set at zero, no offset.
After installing the correct water pump and pulley, it seems the water pump pulley and the crank pulley line up perfectly, all three groves.
Only the power steering pump is a little Short.
I added an extra washer to Two of the front mount bolts for the PS and that made the PS pulley alignment better, but still off about 1 more washer.
As for the balancer, I seem to remember seeing a picture somewhere showing the correct spacing from the timing cover. Cant seem to find anything in the service manual other than 160 pounds of torque.
I am now working on installing my second set of transmission lines.
My goal is to get the car running in 5 days so I can go to the Oldsmobile car show in Lancaster MA on May 31.
Its going to be tight.
After installing the correct water pump and pulley, it seems the water pump pulley and the crank pulley line up perfectly, all three groves.
Only the power steering pump is a little Short.
I added an extra washer to Two of the front mount bolts for the PS and that made the PS pulley alignment better, but still off about 1 more washer.
As for the balancer, I seem to remember seeing a picture somewhere showing the correct spacing from the timing cover. Cant seem to find anything in the service manual other than 160 pounds of torque.
I am now working on installing my second set of transmission lines.
My goal is to get the car running in 5 days so I can go to the Oldsmobile car show in Lancaster MA on May 31.
Its going to be tight.
May 23rd, 2015, 02:03 PM
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 162
Did you remove the p/s pulley? The end of it should be even with the pump shaft. The first picture is just right, the 2nd one is too far on.
Last edited by M-14; May 23rd, 2015 at 02:07 PM.
May 23rd, 2015, 07:22 PM
#22
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
Hi M-14:
I have never removed the PS Pulley.
The Shaft extends beyond the Nut by about 3 threads.
If I wanted to move the Pulley more forward, can I just removed the Nut/Pulley and stick a washer or two behind the Pulley?
I am still in the process of re-assembly the front of the engine after replacing the timing chain/gears.
The Crank Pulley and the Water Pump pulleys look perfect. I have not checked the alignment of the AC compressor yet.
Thanks.
I have never removed the PS Pulley.
The Shaft extends beyond the Nut by about 3 threads.
If I wanted to move the Pulley more forward, can I just removed the Nut/Pulley and stick a washer or two behind the Pulley?
I am still in the process of re-assembly the front of the engine after replacing the timing chain/gears.
The Crank Pulley and the Water Pump pulleys look perfect. I have not checked the alignment of the AC compressor yet.
Thanks.
May 24th, 2015, 01:23 AM
#23
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Davenport, Iowa
Posts: 74
you can but you don't have a lot of room. shop manual tells you to leave the belt tight so you can get the nut loose easier, the pulley will slide off and you can put a spacer behind. was pretty common to see spacers on alternator pulleys. Don't remember seeing that done with these though.
May 24th, 2015, 04:16 AM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 135
I don't see how you could put a washer/spacer on the p/s pump shaft as that type is threaded(not press on) and tapered with a key.
I wouldn't be too concerned if it is off a bit front to back, but at an ANGLE, now that's a problem. My pulleys were not completely in alignment for 1000's of miles of use....no thrown belts or unusual wear.
Greg
I wouldn't be too concerned if it is off a bit front to back, but at an ANGLE, now that's a problem. My pulleys were not completely in alignment for 1000's of miles of use....no thrown belts or unusual wear.
Greg
May 28th, 2015, 04:20 AM
#25
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
The engine started:
Thank you all for you assistance.
I still have a lot of testing and triple checking of all connections, torque values etc. The car did start. After a few spins to get fuel to the carb, the engine started right up, just a smooth as before. I took a slow trip around block, the engine and transmission all seemed normal.
The only real messy issue I had were the two radiator transmission lines were not fully seated and made quite a mess.
Remaining known issues:
Fan hits Shroud. I have realigned the Shroud and radiator a few times, for now I will just remove the shroud and come back to this later.
Changing the green Power Steering fluid.
Transmission Kick-down gasket on order (1 drip per minute parked).
CHECK FOR LEAKS, Check for Missing parts, Check for EXTRA parts.
I’ll write up some of my difficult tasks later.
4 Days until the GMO Oldsmobile car show in Lunenburg May 31, I just may make it.
Thank you all for you assistance.
I still have a lot of testing and triple checking of all connections, torque values etc. The car did start. After a few spins to get fuel to the carb, the engine started right up, just a smooth as before. I took a slow trip around block, the engine and transmission all seemed normal.
The only real messy issue I had were the two radiator transmission lines were not fully seated and made quite a mess.
Remaining known issues:
Fan hits Shroud. I have realigned the Shroud and radiator a few times, for now I will just remove the shroud and come back to this later.
Changing the green Power Steering fluid.
Transmission Kick-down gasket on order (1 drip per minute parked).
CHECK FOR LEAKS, Check for Missing parts, Check for EXTRA parts.
I’ll write up some of my difficult tasks later.
4 Days until the GMO Oldsmobile car show in Lunenburg May 31, I just may make it.
May 28th, 2015, 11:02 AM
#27
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
I solved the fan hitting problem.
I just bent the lower horizontal support bracket downward a little near each of the two shroud support bolts.
Then re-tightened all of the shroud bolts and top radiator cover bolts. I do not hear any more fan hitting.
To verify the solution, I will paint the scratched bottom of the shroud with black paint.
After I drive the car around for a few days and check the paint. If the paint has not been scratched off, it should be all set.
RegroRanger: Thanks for the tip on the motor mounts. My mounts are still the factory originals from 1971. Ill add a new set to my MAW list someday.
This morning’s 20 mile road test was good. No obvious leaks.
The Air condition does work (55F (center vent) on an 85F day).
The Transmission Step-down cable gasket came in today.
The guy at the Transmission shop told me the procedures for replacing the gasket.
I installed a new Clone Waster fluid bottle today. It leaks right where the top tap screws onto the fender (Arrg).
It will be good enough for this week’s show.
I just bent the lower horizontal support bracket downward a little near each of the two shroud support bolts.
Then re-tightened all of the shroud bolts and top radiator cover bolts. I do not hear any more fan hitting.
To verify the solution, I will paint the scratched bottom of the shroud with black paint.
After I drive the car around for a few days and check the paint. If the paint has not been scratched off, it should be all set.
RegroRanger: Thanks for the tip on the motor mounts. My mounts are still the factory originals from 1971. Ill add a new set to my MAW list someday.
This morning’s 20 mile road test was good. No obvious leaks.
The Air condition does work (55F (center vent) on an 85F day).
The Transmission Step-down cable gasket came in today.
The guy at the Transmission shop told me the procedures for replacing the gasket.
I installed a new Clone Waster fluid bottle today. It leaks right where the top tap screws onto the fender (Arrg).
It will be good enough for this week’s show.
February 11th, 2016, 12:41 PM
#28
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
3000 Miles later:
The car is still running.
It looks like my first timing gear replacement was successful. I drove it for about 300 miles and then changed the oil and re-torqued 7 of the 8 bolts on the timing cover. Surprisingly most of them had loosened up a bit.
There were no signs of leakages for any fluids in the areas that I had work on. The oil and antifreeze did not mix.
3,000 miles later, still running and no new leaks.
I am glad I changed my timing gear and chain, but hope I never have to do it again.
Successes:
Planning helped. I pre-ordered most of the parts I needed in advance, including a full gasket set.
Converting the Timing cover from Self-tapping screws to Real nuts and bolts solved potential leakage issues.
Re-Cored my original radiator, now engine runs much cooler.
Found a pinched starter battery cable that was about 100 miles from a direct short.
Failures:
Still have not located an Iron, Closed impeller Water pump for a 1971 with AC.
Did not complete all of the tasks on my winter build list before April 2015.
Now I have a new list of chores for the winter of 2016.
After I got my car running I visited a friend with a 72-CS convertible. Her car would not start. I diagnosed it as a slipped timing chain. She had the car towed to a shop and the shop replace the timing gears and chain for $250 and had the car back in a week.
The car is still running.
It looks like my first timing gear replacement was successful. I drove it for about 300 miles and then changed the oil and re-torqued 7 of the 8 bolts on the timing cover. Surprisingly most of them had loosened up a bit.
There were no signs of leakages for any fluids in the areas that I had work on. The oil and antifreeze did not mix.
3,000 miles later, still running and no new leaks.
I am glad I changed my timing gear and chain, but hope I never have to do it again.
Successes:
Planning helped. I pre-ordered most of the parts I needed in advance, including a full gasket set.
Converting the Timing cover from Self-tapping screws to Real nuts and bolts solved potential leakage issues.
Re-Cored my original radiator, now engine runs much cooler.
Found a pinched starter battery cable that was about 100 miles from a direct short.
Failures:
Still have not located an Iron, Closed impeller Water pump for a 1971 with AC.
Did not complete all of the tasks on my winter build list before April 2015.
Now I have a new list of chores for the winter of 2016.
After I got my car running I visited a friend with a 72-CS convertible. Her car would not start. I diagnosed it as a slipped timing chain. She had the car towed to a shop and the shop replace the timing gears and chain for $250 and had the car back in a week.
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