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My older son and I finally got to getting my dash in. Hurricane IDA put a big hurtin on my area a few weeks ago so the last few weeks have been cleanup and repair of my home, and a bunch of friends and neighbors homes. I guess that’s the price I pay for living in the Sportsman’s Paradise so close to great fishing and outdoors. I know there were a LOT of out of town linemen and workers who came to LA to help. Just know your help is recognized and appreciated. Hopefully you got a bit of gumbo, jambalaya or other fine south Louisiana dish served to you while you were here. I know I cooked and served a few! Southern hospitality at its finest.
So back to the point of this post. Installing a dash is most definitely a two person operation. I also put a couple 5 gallon buckets with soft padding on the floorboards to rest the dash on while I got wires, ac ducts and vacuum hoses where I wanted them. You definitely want to have the glovebox liner in place in the metal dash, the drivers side ac duct installed on the dash pad, and all the wiring on the back of the dash clipped like their supposed to be in the PIM. I found it easier to have the ac control panel in place on the dash and hook up the wires to the switches while the dash was almost installed and setting on the buckets mentioned above. Leave the gauges and radio out and install them after. This will give you nice access holes to adjust everything and get the nuts on the dash studs. And yes the center speaker should be in place. You will never get that in afterwards with the center ducting in place.
A few other tips. I recommend putting a few layers of tape on the lower metal dash to keep the dash pad studs from scratching the metal dash. Also make sure your drivers side clip is in place on the metal dash to capture that far left stud. There is no nut on that one. My windshield and steering column are not in yet so access was pretty good to get everything lined up and bolted down.
One last tip. If you painted your dash I recommend grinding the paint off the areas where the metal studs on the drivers side dash bolt to the metal dash. There are ground straps on the dash that provide a ground path for a lot of dash components that use those locations. A nice clean unpainted surface at these points may prevent chasing electrical gremlins later.
Now it’s time to get the fuse panel in and adjust all the wiring. Nice to see some detail on the interior. I’ll get everything done while I wait on the Legendary seat covers and door panels. March delivery. Sheesh.
Dash in place. Glovebox door, lower ac ducts, gauges, radio and steering column next.
Last edited by Ap6954; September 21st, 2021 at 06:06 AM.
Have not posted progress for a few months. We have been doing small items while I waited for some parts to show up. And also doing a bit of traveling with my wife. Progress from the last posting. Got the rear package tray done and installed the rear and front stationary glass. Used the Dow U-418 urethane and guidance from the guys at Belden Speed and Engineering to get the glass in and at the right height so the trim will fit nice and tight to the glass when the trim is put back on. Got the transmission back in the car and hooked up the trans lines to the Factory aux cooler in front, wiring harness reinstalled and test fit the back drive linkage and cable from floor shifter. Also restored the original center console to get ready to install it. Got a new driveshaft and detailed it to look factory. Stripes and all. Yea I know it’s not an original shaft. Does not have the step down in diameter at both ends. I did not have the original shaft (that’s why the car was parked in 1982 and sat. PO twisted the shaft) and just went ahead with a Dennys 3” steel shaft so I don’t have to worry about it if/when I hammer on it. Looks factory enough and most won’t know the difference. Except some of you guys on this forum…. Also got the dash 100% together. And the last piece. Gardner shipped my exhaust. Went ahead with the concurs package. Will install it when the car gets back from the painter after final cut and buff. Package tray with factory speaker cut out. Flock kit from ILT. Does wonders for restoring the console compartment. Flocking on 1/2 of the console compartment. Detailed driveshaft with brown and blue stripes for a th400 112” wheelbase car. Guessed at the shade of blue and brown. Saw a few photos online and just winged it.
You pick good suppliers AND you do beautiful installation work.
Denny's 3" shaft is as big as you want to go without floor-pan modification. I put in a 3 1/2" from Denny, so I know exactly where that break-point is!
You pick good suppliers AND you do beautiful installation work.
Denny's 3" shaft is as big as you want to go without floor-pan modification. I put in a 3 1/2" from Denny, so I know exactly where that break-point is!
I was worried about the diameter but talking to Denny he said the 3” has worked on other A bodies without interference. I think the stock shaft is about 3” in the middle and steps down to about 2 3/4” at the ends. So we are only talking about an 1/8” bigger radius. I was mainly worried about interfering with the e brake cable Near the trans yoke. Sounds like you have confirmed the 3 1/2” shaft does have issues even with the tunnel. According to Denny’s sizing info my shaft length is just over what they recommend for a 3” shaft. But after talking to him
that it’s a stock restoration with stock tires we did the 3” anyways. Thanks for the compliments guys.
You should have no trouble with clearance on a 3" shaft. Here is my 4" aluminum driveshaft in a car with air ride (gets a whole lot closer to the tunnel then a car on coil springs). In this photo the rear is as high as it will go without picking the car up off the lift and the shaft is still not hitting although it is very close at the rear most floor brace. The recommended length will be based on the driveshaft critical speed RPM rating. Denny's should be able to give you the critical speed rating for their 3" shaft at the length you ordered. Since the car does not have overdrive, as long as you don't take the engine RPM over the driveshaft critical speed rating in 3rd gear you should not have any issues. If they did not tell you the critical speed already, it would be worth giving them a call to find out because if you do take a driveshaft over its critical speed here is what can happen. This happened around 100 MPH on the dyno to a 3” driveshaft that was 63.5” from the center of the front u-joint to the center of the rear u-joint.
Your car is coming out beautiful by the way and has a stunning color combination.
You should have no trouble with clearance on a 3" shaft. Here is my 4" aluminum driveshaft in a car with air ride (gets a whole lot closer to the tunnel then a car on coil springs). In this photo the rear is as high as it will go without picking the car up off the lift and the shaft is still not hitting although it is very close at the rear most floor brace. The recommended length will be based on the driveshaft critical speed RPM rating. Denny's should be able to give you the critical speed rating for their 3" shaft at the length you ordered. Since the car does not have overdrive, as long as you don't take the engine RPM over the driveshaft critical speed rating in 3rd gear you should not have any issues. If they did not tell you the critical speed already, it would be worth giving them a call to find out because if you do take a driveshaft over its critical speed here is what can happen. This happened around 100 MPH on the dyno to a 3” driveshaft that was 63.5” from the center of the front u-joint to the center of the rear u-joint.
Your car is coming out beautiful by the way and has a stunning color combination.
When I talked to Denny I don’t remember him mentioning the critical speed of the shaft but we discussed my setup and my engine peak HP of around 5200-5300 and he said I will have no issue. I think he is used to guys with high winding engines redlining 6500+ using these shafts hence their conservative length limits. They warrant their work and dont want comebacks. I’ll give them a call just for my info.
Love the picture of the twisted shaft. That would be a big bummer if it did that on a freshly restored car! I won’t be pushing my car that hard except for the occasional full throttle pull, or when the teenager in the next lane in a new 5.0 gets cocky!
What’s left is interior reassembly and putting all the trim and emblems back on after I get it back from paint cut and buff. I bet it’s gonna take me longer than I expect to recover the seats.
Still have a few pieces of trim to polish out but most of it is done. I have gotten pretty good at getting scratches out and polishing the trim. Takes me a while but the results look outstanding. Could never make a living at it with the speed I go! Luckily most of the trim does not have many dents or deep marks. Just scratches.
Hopefully the seat covers and door panels get here in April like promised. In fact I’m gonna call Legendary tommorow and check. All the other interior stuff is ready to install and light blue painted plastics have been redone and ready to spray with paint from Kolor Korrect once I get a low humidity weather day .
Love the picture of the twisted shaft. That would be a big bummer if it did that on a freshly restored car!
Actually it did. I had no Idea about the critical speed rating myself until this happened, which is why I always mention this whenever the topic of driveshafts is discussed on here. I always thought the limiting factor was horsepower and the car is not making enough to be an issue as far as that goes. The problem is that the car is LONG and so is the drive shaft. When any driveshaft gets to a certain RPM it starts flexing in the middle until it flies apart. This one just happened to have a low RPM because it was so long and such a small diameter. The really scary part is that I had the car close to the speed it let loose at a few times out on the road. Luckily it didn't decide to break until it was on the dyno. My buddy who was tuning the car said it felt like a bomb went off under it when it broke. His dyno is about 3 feet off the ground behind a 4-post lift, so we were able to put it up in the air and remove the back half (luckily it did not hurt the 12 bolt I built for the car) and then just bring the lift to the height of my brothers trailer to pull it on. The front half had already "removed" itself from the car while at the same time breaking the trans tail housing in half.
I am actually in the same boat as you, the length of my driveshaft is just over what PST recommends for 4" aluminum. After that it would need to be carbon fiber. That said, they told me it will be good to 7400 RPM (a little over 5000 RPM at the crankshaft in overdrive) and 2000 horsepower. Neither of which this car will ever see.
Actually it did. I had no Idea about the critical speed rating myself until this happened, which is why I always mention this whenever the topic of driveshafts is discussed on here. I always thought the limiting factor was horsepower and the car is not making enough to be an issue as far as that goes. The problem is that the car is LONG and so is the drive shaft. When any driveshaft gets to a certain RPM it starts flexing in the middle until it flies apart. This one just happened to have a low RPM because it was so long and such a small diameter. The really scary part is that I had the car close to the speed it let loose at a few times out on the road. Luckily it didn't decide to break until it was on the dyno. My buddy who was tuning the car said it felt like a bomb went off under it when it broke. His dyno is about 3 feet off the ground behind a 4-post lift, so we were able to put it up in the air and remove the back half (luckily it did not hurt the 12 bolt I built for the car) and then just bring the lift to the height of my brothers trailer to pull it on. The front half had already "removed" itself from the car while at the same time breaking the trans tail housing in half.
I am actually in the same boat as you, the length of my driveshaft is just over what PST recommends for 4" aluminum. After that it would need to be carbon fiber. That said, they told me it will be good to 7400 RPM (a little over 5000 RPM at the crankshaft in overdrive) and 2000 horsepower. Neither of which this car will ever see.
Oh you have a Vista. Yea that’s a long driveshaft to deal with and sounds you have OD which makes your driveshaft speed worse. Super fortunate your were not on the road when that happened is right. Could have been ugly. Nice Wagon. My son would love to find one. He has a family and wants a big car to cruise in. Tough to find them in good shape for a decent price now.
I have not, but I know it is HEAVY. I put it on the road right after I got everything working before I started doing the body work. No seats other than the factory front bench (I think the front strato-bench alone with the power track is almost 200 lbs heavier than the factory front bench), no interior panels other than the front driver door panel to work the windows, and no carpet. At that point the car was pretty squirily and would break the tires loose instantly up through at least 30 MPH. I think the full interior added at least 1000 lbs to the car maybe more. Still fun to drive but not nearly as responsive and you need to be "intentional" if you want to spin the rear tires.
One more sidetrack comment. I had a stripper 72 Vista that was a 455 car. It was used as a tow car for the Winter Nationals. Came to me with Cragers. Had all the stickers in the windshield. Loved that. It pulled great. I felt the weight but loved that car.
Actually it did. I had no Idea about the critical speed rating myself until this happened, which is why I always mention this whenever the topic of driveshafts is discussed on here. I always thought the limiting factor was horsepower and the car is not making enough to be an issue as far as that goes. The problem is that the car is LONG and so is the drive shaft. When any driveshaft gets to a certain RPM it starts flexing in the middle until it flies apart. This one just happened to have a low RPM because it was so long and such a small diameter. The really scary part is that I had the car close to the speed it let loose at a few times out on the road. Luckily it didn't decide to break until it was on the dyno. My buddy who was tuning the car said it felt like a bomb went off under it when it broke. His dyno is about 3 feet off the ground behind a 4-post lift, so we were able to put it up in the air and remove the back half (luckily it did not hurt the 12 bolt I built for the car) and then just bring the lift to the height of my brothers trailer to pull it on. The front half had already "removed" itself from the car while at the same time breaking the trans tail housing in half.
I am actually in the same boat as you, the length of my driveshaft is just over what PST recommends for 4" aluminum. After that it would need to be carbon fiber. That said, they told me it will be good to 7400 RPM (a little over 5000 RPM at the crankshaft in overdrive) and 2000 horsepower. Neither of which this car will ever see.
Just an FYI for you guys, if you every have a failure in the driveline while it is under load, you have almost certainly damaged the low roller clutch in the transmission (automatic cars). It is always smart to pull the transmission after a failure and have a looksee. I've had a number of driveline failures, and every time the low roller is "gibbled" (NFG)
I'm tempted to say that broken drive shaft was a design flaw - especially given their explanation. I'm no expert on driveshafts but I know more than a little bit about spinning shafts, high cycle fatigue, low cycle fatigue, bending critical speeds, etc. The (probably first) bending critical of a driveshaft should certainly be outside the operational speed range (say, 1,000 - 8,000 engine rpm). Anywhere inside its operating range and you risk this kind of failure.
Sounds like the shaft had a resonant frequency that was at a particular speed where they spent some time on the dyno. Probably didn't take too long for it to accumulate enough cycles to grenade the shaft. Sometimes you can't design the shaft so the resonant frequency is outside the operating range but in a case like that you'd definitely want it to be at a speed that got traversed quickly and not at a speed where it would be parked (say, for example, 2500 engine rpm) for even a short period of time. Shaft length, diameter and mass will factor into the bending criticals. It's a good thing the car wasn't damaged and no one got hurt.
As Joe P often says, the factory engineers earn their money to design parts so things like this don't happen on customer vehicles. Aftermarket guys often design stuff so it looks good or sounds impressive. I understand building a high power car requires components the factory didn't offer. Maybe we can use this as a great example to learn some questions that could be asked next time someone needs an aftermarket driveshaft.
Sometimes you can't design the shaft so the resonant frequency is outside the operating range...
The resonant frequency must be outside the operating range.
Originally Posted by acavagnaro
Maybe we can use this as a great example to learn some questions that could be asked next time someone needs an aftermarket driveshaft.
Resonant frequency of a driveshaft depends on length, stiffness, and rpm. Long length, low stiffness, and high rpm are a bad combination.
It's the responsibility of the driveshaft manufacturer to ensure your driveshaft is adequate for your installation.
As buyer, you only need to remember one thing... unless your driveshaft manufacturer asks you the maximum rpm of your driveshaft, find another manufacturer.
I'm tempted to say that broken drive shaft was a design flaw - especially given their explanation.
To be clear, GM was the manufacturer/ designer of the folded/ broken drive shaft. I put in an old shaft I had lying around that fit when the car was done. The original Vista shaft was too short do to the fact that the vista cruiser used a long tail housing trans from the factory and the car now has a short tail housing overdrive trans (4L60e). As I said, I did not know about critical speed and frequency before this happened which is why I bring it up when ever the topic of drive shafts is discussed on here. You are correct that the broken shaft was not designed to work under the application where it broke, but no aftermarket company said it would. PST made the new shaft (4" aluminum) to work under the parameters the car currently has. If you go to PST's website, they have a really good FAQ/ FYI page with length/ diameter/ material calculator.
Last edited by Loaded68W34; March 11th, 2022 at 04:23 PM.
Got the car back from being wet sanded and polished. Looks great. Pretty much all the orange peel and debris is gone and it’s pretty slick. Now I can start putting all the trim on. A small detail I noticed when I took my original emblems and some trim off of the outer body, it looked like the factory had used a black sealant to seal the penetrations from water intrusion. The trunk emblems did not have it since those are push fit, but the side emblems and the rear trunk quarter trim that screws to the quarter panel had it. I doubt this car will get water on it very often, but I went ahead and used a dab of black 3M strip caulk on the areas that I found this sealant when I disassembled. I also noticed that the factory speed nuts on the emblems have a wider flange than any replacement speed nuts I could find. So I reused the original speed nuts and re phosphated them. Yea nobody will see them but me but details matter on this build.
Original trunk quarter trim with remnants of black sealant Trim polished and reinstalled with new hardware Side emblem speed nut comparison. Original speed nut on left. Repop on right 3M strip caulk sealant Slick side shot after polishing. Lotta details left to do.
A bit more progress today. I got the outer felts on the front and rear windows installed. Took a lot of test fit and tweaks. The rear edge of the back windows on the coupe are tough to get to fit good and get the outer rubber seal to sit against the body because of the curve at the rear corner. Took a lot of tweaking but I am happy with the results. Probably took them on and off 10 times to get everything tweaked to fit tight and flush. I think these are critical to get installed straight and tight to the body panels to provide a nice finished look.
My older son was able to come by today and we got the Gardner exhaust installed. They do a great job with their systems as many have said and provide Everything you need. We went with the concurs package and all the items are spot on. Getting the trumpets to fit nice and tight in the cutout bumper is always a challenge but the key for me is to get everything in and snugged and then I insert a piece of pipe in the exhaust tip and tug everything to get the tip lined up. I’m not bending the exhaust pipe, but it gets everything to twist into the right spot. Then fully tighten all the clamps and brackets and it’s done. Sometimes you gotta take the clamp that is at the exhaust tip off and let the pipe drop down a bit to give you room to tug without hitting the tip on the bumper.
And a big milestone last week. Got my door panels and seat covers from Legendary. Took 8 months. I’ll be talking to RAMBOW on this forum once the seat rebuild begins to get seat parts and advice.
Gardner exhaust. Love the quality Went with their stock looking turbo muffler. They modify the internals for a bit louder sound than stock Tips look about where I want them Rear felt Front felt
Beautiful car, the W-27 is cool too!
What did you end up using for outer window sweeps, especially the rear ones?
yeah that rear axle makes this car. Big reason I took on the project.
I ended up using PUI outer sweeps in the back. They took a bit of work to make them fit the curvature of the rear part of the window to my satisfaction. I ended up cutting about 1/4” off the rear of the sweep and made a slice in the metal “framing” about 2” from the rear to allow the sweep to curve a bit more if that makes sense. You won’t see the slice once the door panels are on. Fit real good after that adjustment and the rubber flap that sits on the body is perfectly flush and tight. NOS ones may not have needed that much work but I’m happy with the fit.
Finishing up some details under the hood today. Installing the hood locks. I did not replate the original hood twist locks. Expensive to fix the pitting and replate so I used replacements from Supercars unlimited. Theirs has the acsco stamp underneath so they are really close to original. I did notice the plates that bolt to the hood are a bit different. The originals have a more defined stamping on the raised ridges that the twist lock pin fits into than the repop. Probably because the stamping machine used by the OEM was able to press much harder than the repop and create a deeper and more defined ridge. Even though my originals have a bit of rust pitting on them I think I will smooth them out and reuse them. Probably a bit of overkill on this detail but easy to fix the originals with a bit of my labor.
OEM mounting plate on the left OEM twist lock mounting plate on the left. A bit more smoothing is needed. Again OEM on the left. Much more defined stamping.
Thanks for sharing your build with us. You've set the bar high for us wanna-be restorers. It's amazing how many small details get over looked on most restorations. I'm probably one of the worst offenders! lol
Thanks for sharing your build with us. You've set the bar high for us wanna-be restorers. It's amazing how many small details get over looked on most restorations. I'm probably one of the worst offenders! lol
thanks for the compliment. I think one of the pitfalls all of us take is that we want to be in a hurry to finish something. It’s much faster to just use a repop part and move on than restore the original. I am guilty of that also. But With this build I have tried real hard to slow down and notice the details. Sharing my findings with others may spark something in them also to not rush through their restoration but slow down and enjoy the process. Have also met some great folks with the same interests.
I researched several reference sources, (PIM, Fisher body manual, etc) for Olds, and other 70 GM models for which clips should be used to retain both the front and rear window trim. There seems to be three types of clips. AMK sells all three types. Consensus was the “sliding adjustable depth type” was to be used on the front glass top and the fixed type used on the back. Never have found exact info on which to use on the front on the sides.
I ended up using the Adjustable depth red type on the front top and sides, and the green fixed depth ones on the back. The trim fits nice and tight to the glass.
I know a lot has to do with the depth you set the glass. I set my glass, both front and rear using a 3/16” dam and urethane. Rear window was original glass. Front was a repo glass. Other combo’s May work but this is what worked for me on this build. During My tear down years ago I found a mixture of clips used so I had no good point of reference.
Hopefully this info helps others.
Green fixed depth clip. Used in rear glass. AMK part number B-10838 Red “adjustable depth” clip. Used in front glass. AMK part number B-10894 Front glass trim fit. Rear glass trim fit
Good stuff Andy, looks nice. Did you use any of the plastic that slides on the trim's underside to either keep trim tight or prevent wear? Adjustable in front and fixed in rear. Thanks for posting.
Good stuff Andy, looks nice. Did you use any of the plastic that slides on the trim's underside to either keep trim tight or prevent wear? Adjustable in front and fixed in rear. Thanks for posting.
plastic strips on both. Made it a lot tighter. Not sure if those are for wear on the glass or a water seal?
I am unsure. I had my original ones to clean up
and use. I bet one of the sellers on this forum would have some off salvage cars. I’m not sure if they came on all cars. They were on my 70 though. They were not on my 69, but they could have been taken off at some point also.
The next project was getting the carpet, kick panels and floor shifter installed. Special shout out to fellow forum member WTHIRTY1 for sharing some details of getting the carpet cut and fit like they did at the factory. My carpet was already gone when I bought the car years ago so I did not have a template. His advice and photos from his recent restoration helped a bunch to get some details right. A few details that are pretty cool.
Pretty sure the carpet was installed on the line after the seats and shifter were already in. Hence the slices where the seat sliders are and the cuts where the shifter and console brackets are. Many times I see seats bolted on top of the carpet but I think to be factory correct the carpet should lay over the seat mounting bolts and nuts.
Some might notice the black foam seal on the shifter cable to floor penetration. Can’t find my original yellow foam one so this is a repop. Hopefully I can find my original somewhere and change it out.
Here is a few neat details and photos on the install. Installed with slits for the seat sliders. Rear showing the slice for the center console rear mount. Cuts around shifter. Some will notice the shifter base is black and not bare steel. I Chose to do that when I rebuilt the shifter. Didn’t want it to rust. Guess I could have used bare steel gray but didn’t. I did make sure to scrub paint from the areas that are grounded for the console harness ground. Interesting detail. The ACC carpets come with the front carpet seamed straight across the back of the carpet. Since I cut the rear edge it to replicate the factory as it passes under the seat and console you get a bare carpet edge by the shifter on both sides. I removed the seam edging from the piece I cut off and sewed it back on the edge by the shifter on both sides. The carpet edge in the center under the front buckets don’t get the edging. Small detail that won’t be easily seen but fun to replicate it. Rear of shifter and carpet tucked under.
Last edited by Ap6954; June 14th, 2022 at 01:56 PM.
September 20th, 2021, 08:32 PM
