becerra66

Ok I can fix the idle, but are they both suppose to be all the way open...even the larger ones in the back...not sure if ur understanding what I mean....
But I nvr run out of gas...I watch the miles as well...Normally I drive all the way to work and back and still have gas..Im just not understanding how I ran out..I been using the same Shell Unleaded Plus...cause the cheaper gas sucks *****...

oldcutlass

The only butterfly that should be open all the time on your current carb is the front top. It needs to be straight up and down. Your fuel economy could have changed dramatically because in Texas and other parts of the country there are 2 blends of fuel. A winter blend and a summer blend, it reacts differently with temperature. The winter blend tends to get better fuel mileage than the summer. I run Valero in my car and it performs well. You do not need to be running the higher octane. Be careful not to run E85 in your car as I saw it is available in your area.

becerra66

Ok got it...understand but before I go to bed


so if the back butterfly is stuck open that is a problem...that's I am talking about the back one the larger one

MDchanic

The secondary air valve, which looks like it would be the "choke" of the secondaries, should never be open, as far as you can tell.
It only opens under conditions of high load (high air flow), which you cannot see unless you are driving (with the air cleaner on and the hood closed).
If it is open, then the secondary metering rods are lifted out of the secondary jets, and you have a major fuel blow-off occurring.

- Eric

Fun71

No, as said previously the rear air valves are not supposed to be open. When the engine is running they should be held closed by the vacuum diaphragm. That's the thing with the zip ties in your picture.



Could be the diaphragm is leaky, or maybe it's as simple as the vacuum hose is disconnected. You can try sucking on the end of the vacuum hose to see if the diaphragm pulls in. If not, you should be able to buy a replacement at the parts store. NAPA is usually a good source for these type carburetor parts.

cjsdad

I think we were all concentrating on the choke so much that we missed the fact that the secondary air valve is tied open with zip ties too. It also looks like the vacuum actuator for the choke/air valve may be broken or damaged. The vacuum source for that is supposed to pull the choke open and release the high idle when the throttle is stepped on after warm-up. It is also supposed to lock the secondary air valve shut so you cannot engage the secondaries until the engine is at least partially warmed up.
afteradjustment_3_zpsm8epnfgn.jpg

Neither were tied open in the original pics you posted of the carb so if the knuckehead that "adjusted it" did that, you need to avoid him at all cost from now on!



Having that air valve tied open may indeed cause a drop in fuel mileage. It could also cause low idle speed and stalling because of being over rich. You need to find someone with better hands around your intake!

MDchanic

Holy crap, I didn't even notice that the secondary air valve was open in that picture!!

Duh.

One thing, though: The vacuum diaphragm does not hold the secondary air valve closed (well, it does, but only to keep it from "chattering" or "flapping") - the secondary air valve is held closed by the secondary air valve spring, which is located in the pivot on the passenger side. The tension on this spring is adjustable, so that the secondary air valve moves just right.

+1: If the guy who you had look at your carburetor used nylon ties to hold your secondary air valve open, he is an idiot, and must be avoided at all costs.

- Eric

cjsdad

Guess I should have said that the air valve op-rod is tied in a stationary position 'cause the ties in the pic shouldn't cause the air valve/secondaries to be open. Kinda makes me wonder if there is any extra zip ties or other hardware on the other side of the carb. Do you have any pics of the other side Gurlie Gurl?

cjsdad

I keep looking at that pic and enlarging it to look at different things and then editing my posts. It looks like the zip tie around the air valve op-rod may be binding enough to hold the valve open. You need to cut those things off! If the choke doesn't stay open on it's own, that needs to be fixed but not with a zip tie! Maybe you guys that deal with carbs more than I do can tell us if that choke set up is supposed to be vacuum operated and the vacuum source should go through a temperature controlled valve?

becerra66

I went to bed SOOOO mad last night!!you all confirmed my very thoughts...
There used to be a small coat hanger wire twisted on top of one of the rods....when the carb orlieys guy saw it he removed it..added the blk ties..adjust the idle and another something...

Ok So Now you know why....I really am one of those kind of chics that's picky about who I let under my hood...he had me fooled..he actually works at Orileys.....I will see him this weekend and let him know too in a very kind way..
BUT yeah wont be touching the carb....the hood...the door nada...


But I have learned so much more about carbs this week...reading and reading...pictures and more reading...you don't know how many times I read you alls advice...until fully understand...


That's why Ive been going thru so much gas the past few days....Ok
Like I ust want to call in today to work....hmmmmm how much vacation time do I have...Im going to be like a bad junkie at work today..I just wanna go fix that crap..ayayayayaya

becerra66

If you look closely theres a wire on the top of the rods




I promise to learn the part names...working on that today...

oldcutlass

I apologize, when I saw that the choke was tied open in the picture you posted on the previous page, I also did not see the secondary butterfly open. My suggestion is to find another carb and I would use a Rochester. It will work the best with the best fuel economy with the least investment.

MDchanic

Actually, since Terry is in south Texas, if the choke doesn't stay open on its own, it's okay for her to use a bit of wire (like a bag tie) to keep it open all the time - You can run a car with no choke in that weather with no problem.


The choke is not vacuum operated, but it does use vacuum.
The choke operating spring in that year sits inside of a round housing on the side of the carburetor, attached to the choke operating rod internally.
There is a small vacuum bleed into the spring chamber from the carburetor venturi, which pulls outside air in from within the air cleaner housing, at the back of the carb, through a tube to a well in the intake manifold that sits in the stream of the exhaust crossover, where it heats up, then into the choke spring chamber, where it heats the choke spring up, which pulls the choke open.

- Eric

cjsdad

Ummm, there is no bi-metal choke spring onna side of that carb. I am familiar with the choke style you are describing, but I have never seen one like this.

cjsdad

I don't think the misuse of a couple zip ties means the carb is ruined. Like Eric says, use a tie to hold the choke open, but that doesn't mean she needs a whole new carburetor. A new vacuum actuator that pulls the choke open for sure, but those are a LOT cheaper than a complete new setup.

cjsdad

I'd say talk to this guy and get an estimate for proper repairs.

MDchanic

Correctamundo. It ain't there.

I also do not see the little tab with three holes that is used with the divorced choke setup, and am not intimately familiar with all of the possible linkage variations, so I can't tell you whether this is a divorced choke carb on a non-divorced choke manifold,
or whether this is a non-divorced choke carb with its choke spring chamber missing.

Either way, as you correctly point out, the choke ain't gonna work on this car.

- Eric

becerra66

That secondary butterfly was open ALL THE WAY LAST NIGHT like it was stuck...this morning I went and put the wire back around the top rod to keep the 2nd btrfly closed....hopefully that will work for now..BUt I did drive him to work again today..
and I didnt see the gas gauge drop in fuel either

brown7373

I attached a picture of the spring that holds the air valves closed (middle of 2nd row). The rod keeps the air valves from opening, it does not close them. That is done by the spring. The rod keeps them closed under high vacuum situations, like idle and low speed operation. When you accelerate hard, the vacuum drops and the rod moves toward the rear and allows the air valves to open. The vacuum diaphragm (2nd row, right side) is what controls the opening.

GEARMAN69

I wish you were closer, I would fix ya up real quick. Qjets are easy to fix and tune when ya get to know em and $ friendly in the long run. Get that thing off and mail it to one of the members to fix it up for ya.

tru-blue 442

This. Get hold of 70Wcars.

oldcutlass

The secondary butterfly is being held open by a tiewrap. Cut them off and then just tie the front butterfly open.

becerra66

I received my manuals...ANOTHER EXCITING DAY FOR ME!!!!

its like xmas over and over...but I am actually getting something to open...

Thanks....Happy days are ahead!!!!

I think its time to call in sick to work for a few days....

gregvm

That carb is odd. I've never seen one with that choke set-up.


Where is the fast idle adjust at? And wouldn't that tie prevent the base idle speed screw to be ineffective(fast idle cam)?


Those rear air doors should NEVER be open when it's not running. Should open and close with no sticking/binding, and should "snap" closed from wide open with NO help. Maybe varnished/gummed up or weak/broken/misadjusted return spring.


Greg

becerra66

Mdchanic...cjsdad....brown7373, All you guys are right about the spring missing that controls the secondary, the orileyscarbguy - he mentioned that too me as he untwisted the metal tie that was keeping the secondary closed..then he added the blk ties..he also mention 1 or 2 hoses were missing that lead to the back of the carb


This morning before work I tied a wire back where it was before the orileys guys took it off...on the top rod to keep it closed..I only used about $6.50 in gas today...


Also german69 I wish you were closer too..anyways where are you


trueblue442 -eric I contacted that 70w dude


But who knows I may just get a wild hair and try and tackle myself..Ive always done things on my own why stop now...I dunno will see..I have some badazz manuals now that I started reading today so I have 2 more days till Friday to read and review...

MDchanic

The carb. manual and chapter are pretty clear.

Read about it with the carb right there so you can look at it and mess with it, and then let us know if you have any questions.

As for the secondary air valve return spring, the odds are that somebody loosened the set screw and released the spring tension. It can be readjusted to spec with a bit of trial and error.

- Eric

becerra66

So I will need a spring then..hmmmmm
Yes I started with the 72csm...geez my eyes and brain were tired after work...but I covered a lot...tmrw I will review again...certain areas of the manual....


Mmmm someone once told me to throw away my Chilton and get a REAL csm...I giggled to myself when I read that part...ahhhhhh ouuuuuu ouuulala ...he was so right.....

MDchanic

I don't think the spring is gone - just loosened up.

- Eric

becerra66

you know whats funny to me...I have never let a man or any man tell me what to do...


And now all the sudden I have like 4 telling me what to do...the funny thing is I AM LISTENING....awww theres hope foe me yet....me smiling at myself...

becerra66

No Eric is GONE...I remembering him pointing that out..also went back and looked at my pictures...its not there...u can see in one of the pics I posted the spring is missing...

MDchanic

I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just giving you information so you can figure out what to do for yourself.

... Which is what makes you different from at least 80% of the people on here asking questions:
You're looking for knowledge, not instructions.

... Which is why I'm nice to you, but I'm a jerk to people who want me to take them by both hands and show them where their own butt is.

- Eric

MDchanic

You can't see the secondary air valve return spring.
It's wrapped around the secondary air valve shaft underneath the little projecting lug on the Right side. You can only see it if you turn the carburetor upside down, and even then it's easy to miss.
It's about a quarter inch in diameter and less than a quarter inch long.

- Eric

becerra66

I know I know Eric..Im just having fun with you all....ok ok ok...(*--*)...but its great stuff I am learning you guys...Like Ive said before I am grateful and some how shall repay some how..thats the kind of person I am..the way my dad taught me to be..when people are nice to you treat them in that manner..if they do something for you..then do something for them in return...

MDchanic

To clarify:

To clarify:

- Eric

Fun71

To add to what Eric posted above, typically you would put the screwdriver on the tension adjusting screw (Step 2) BEFORE performing Step 1, to hold the screw in place. This prevents the spring from unwinding when the lock screw is loosened. This may not be an issue for you since it appears that your tension adjusting screw is unwound beyond the minimum tension required to keep the secondary air valves closed. Also, when adjusting the spring tension, a little adjustment goes a long way. 1/8 turn can make a significant difference in the secondary air valve opening rate.

becerra66

Downloading downloading...before the network blocks me....this morning I was blocked out from downloading anything....

oops....But making progress...Buzy more with all the School testing every where..

becerra66

@ Fun71..I will try what u said
You can try sucking on the end of the vacuum hose to see if the diaphragm pulls in
this weekend

Also MDchanic the orileys guys I remember he even fingered the spring looking and feeling for it....I will look again today..but are we talking about the same spring...just want to make sure...the spring in question is on the outside of the carb for the vacuum rod for the secondary

becerra66

Cant see the picture.....

brown7373

maybe you can see what is there if you hold a mirror and good light under it. Here is a picture of what you should see from underneath.


The spring coils are wrapped around the adjusting screw and a loop hooks around the long narrow pin on the left. The screw that tightens the adjusting screw has a hex head and you tighten with an allen wrench.


So, if everything is there and not gummed up, you close the air valves and turn the adjusting screw 1/2 turn from when the spring hook just contacts the pin. Holding it in place, you tighten the screw from underneath with an allen wrench to secure the spring.

MDchanic

Great picture, Brown! Thanks!

I hope you don't mind, I added a few things:



- Eric