When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
99% of this thread has been about ignition related item with a small mention of going through multiple starters. No where did you describe slow or no cranking to lead anyone to point to a starter issue.
Yes, that is correct somewhat. I never said 'no' cranking and never said 'slow' cranking. Slow cranking is a positive but no cranking never occurred or the engine would not start. If I sidestepped the problem or I did not clarify the symptoms; my fault. I'm not blaming anyone for the possibilities they mentioned, for there were, and are numerous parts that could affect the 'slow' cranking adjoined to a "hot" engine.
Last edited by synoptic12; Oct 10, 2025 at 05:20 PM.
* I forgot one aspect. When I asked him why so many starters and why they failed, he said, "Probably Windings". I do not know where the O'Reilly starters are made as I will never purchase any parts there ever again from O'Reilly. Even AC- Delco seems to be having issues with parts, not only their starters.
Here are parts suppliers in trouble:
First Brands Group: 10 billion in liabilities
Marelli: Filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in June 2025
Advance Auto Parts: The company is closing all of its stores on the West Coast and plans to close a total of about 500 corporate stores and 200 independent locations by mid-2025
Stellantis brands (Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram): A YouTube video claims these brands are going out of business, but this is likely an exaggeration or misunderstanding of financial reporting. The Street has reported on battery manufacturer bankruptcy, not the closing of these major car brands. “SHOCKER”
Car Toys Inc.: This auto parts retail chain filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in August 2025, reports The Street.
First Brands Group: This company, which owns brands like Fram, Autolite, and Raybestos, filed for bankruptcy protection in September 2025, citing over \(\$10\) billion in liabilities
PartsID: This e-commerce auto parts retailer filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in December 2023
Addendum
When I was speaking of 'hard' starting, I believed that terminology to be interchangeable with 'slow' starting. If I mislead any regarding those starting symptoms, I was wrong. Any can elaborate as to whether slow and hard starting can be interchangeable or their meanings are different.
Secondarily, I was looking into two additional components 1.) Coolant temperature sensor which will illuminate codes (14 or 15) and 2.) crankshaft position sensor which will illuminate codes such as P0335-P0339 or P0016. The ECM was not activated for there was no SES (Service Engine Soon Light) illuminated.
A hot engine's slow start is often caused by heat-related electrical issues, such as a failing starter motor due to heat soak, or a poor connection at the battery or starter cables. Other causes include a weak battery, a failing fuel pump that struggles when hot, or an engine management issue like a faulty coolant temperature sensor.
I'm due to bring my car in Tuesday for the timing check and starter.
Last edited by synoptic12; Oct 11, 2025 at 07:18 AM.
The description you should have used is slow cranking. What threw us off was your insistence on replacing ignition parts which has absolutely nothing to do with your issue.
The description you should have used is slow cranking. What threw us off was your insistence on replacing ignition parts which has absolutely nothing to do with your issue.
* Yes, you are completely correct. My apologies. Another issue has surfaced. The shop called NAPA for a starter. I asked Bob if there were a Lifetime warranty.The owner Bob said there was no lifetime warranty to me and the part was guaranteed for a year. I had nothing to do today so I called NAPA inquiring of a starter for my car. What I found out from NAPA is that only one starter is available for my Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Brougham 307 Vin Y. Lo and behold, I called the same NAPA that Bob (Owner) called and the parts person said he told him for a 305 not a 307. He said the 305 starter was not available anyway. Bob did not place theorder yet. The part is $233.99 with 20% off online until October 13. That starter is new, not remanufactured. Now, I cannot speak with him as the shop is closed until Tuesday because of the Columbus Day holiday. I would like to purchase but I do not know if he'll install the starter if I purchase. This places me in a dilemma. I really hate these problems. Secondarily, some NAPA stores state the starter is only warranted for a one time exchange, not multiple exchanges. One NAPA store states that it is guaranteed for life ( No limit on exchanges). I'll have to contact the district manager for the correct policy on the warranty.
Now, I'm in a position where I cannot do anything or call anyone as everyone is closed or away until Tuesday and the 20% offer expires on the 13th. What would you do at this point? Thank you very much for the support. https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NRO4N5041
If the shop said that they wouldn't accept parts from you then you could at least print off the starter that's for sale. Then ask the shop if they'll match the price.
If the shop said that they wouldn't accept parts from you then you could at least print off the starter that's for sale. Then ask the shop if they'll match the price.
* I'm having some difficulty in comprehending your reply. The shop never stated they wouldn't accept parts as I do not know if they would or would not. I cannot contact them until Tuesday, so in that respect I lose the 20% discount from NAPA whereby that offer expires Oct. 13. You say "Print of the starter that's for sale" which would be from NAPA, same supplier as he uses. The bottom line is I do not know if he'll accept parts that I purchase. Bob is a pretty good guy yet there are many that will not install parts that any purchase. You must be aware that a lot, many of the shops that install like to make a few dollars off the part. Not knowing if he would incorporate this policy is unknown to me. I did tell him that a lot of garages like to add on the part that they furnish and he said nothing. The issue is I cannot contact him until October 13 as the 20% off at NAPA will no longer be valid. Should I purchase online using the 20% discount and take a chance? The price is $233.99 minus 20% off which is around $186.99 and 7% tax would be aropund $200.00 as opposed to a flat out price of $233.99 plus 7% tax would be about $249.00 which is a difference of about $49.00 savings. Thank you very much for the courtesy and support.
What should I do and what would you do? I believe there is a 30 day return policy so I could always return, right? If, if he did use that starter from NAPA what do you believe he would charge me ($239.99)?
*There is only one starter available for my Oldsmobile at NAPA so I am somewhat at a loss to see how he is going to charge me $370 installed inclusive of timing check. He will not deal with Auto Zone.
NAPA Starter Warranty
Last edited by synoptic12; Oct 11, 2025 at 02:30 PM.
Should I purchase a 9 or 11 tooth starter and please provide the reasons?
All Oldsmobile starters use a 9 tooth pinion. If you look at the photos in the NAPA listings, the one with 11 teeth is has a completely different nose piece that won't bolt to an Olds motor.
All Oldsmobile starters use a 9 tooth pinion. If you look at the photos in the NAPA listings, the one with 11 teeth is has a completely different nose piece that won't bolt to an Olds motor.
Thanks very much for that info. Wished to be certain. Starter 9 tooth vs. 11 tooth
Thanks very much for that info. Wished to be certain. Starter 9 tooth vs. 11 tooth
I've never even seen that. I find it hard to believe that some aftermarket starter has even a fraction of the engineering and testing that went into the OEM ones. Olds diesel starters used a ten tooth pinion, but that's a massive geared starter that's unique to the diesel applications, and diesels used a smaller flexplate ring gear.
And I'll add that these are for Chebby motors. The 3.0-8.1 are both Chevy. The 3.0 is the latest iteration of the inline four cylinder that was originally installed in the Nova. The 8.1 is the last version of the big block Chevy. These engines put the starter on the passenger side, so it WON'T even bolt to an Olds motor with the starter on the driver side.
Here's a teaching moment. Since Olds and Chevy starters are on opposite sides of the engine, the opening for the pinion to engage the ring gear are also on opposite sides on the starter nose. It pays to be observant.
Here's a teaching moment. Since Olds and Chevy starters are on opposite sides of the engine, the opening for the pinion to engage the ring gear are also on opposite sides on the starter nose. It pays to be observant.
Can you tell me what starter I should purchase to avoid any further problems. I believe that the many are made or manufactured in China. Some say Taiwan and Mexico are the worst, yet I would not know. Is a 'new' starter beter than a remanufactured? I spoke with NAPA at several locations and there were differences of opinions on the waranty; some saying one time and others stating for as many times as the starter fails. What is your opinion here? Enclosed is the warranty for re-man starters as the warranty for new has the exact same language. There are no stipulations stating for 'one time' exchange. And, what is considered "Wear"? I practice litigation now and then. NAPA Re-Manufactured Warranty
Last edited by synoptic12; Oct 13, 2025 at 09:45 AM.
All NAPA parts are imported now. The additional price you pay for their "premium" parts is simply paying for the longer warranty as an insurance policy. The expensive "premium" brake drums I got from them for my truck were still out of round right out of the box. I rebuild my own starters and alternators, so I can't recommend a brand. I haven't been following this thread and frankly I have no desire to go back and read 100 posts. What, exactly is the starter problem you are trying to fix?
All NAPA parts are imported now. The additional price you pay for their "premium" parts is simply paying for the longer warranty as an insurance policy. The expensive "premium" brake drums I got from them for my truck were still out of round right out of the box. I rebuild my own starters and alternators, so I can't recommend a brand. I haven't been following this thread and frankly I have no desire to go back and read 100 posts. What, exactly is the starter problem you are trying to fix?
I was having a problem in starting the vehicle 1986 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Brougham 5.0 Liter (307) Oldsmobile motor VIN Y, so the car was in need of a tune-up so I replaced the spark plugs (AC-Delco) gapped at .060, Denso spark plug wires (8mm), AC-Delco distributor cap, Ignition rotor, EGR Valve, Crankcase filter, Engine air filter, and PCV valve. The fuel pump and carburetor filter were replaced within the past year. I'm getting better increased performance and seems to me more power. However, those parts did not solve the issue.
The car is 'slow' starting when hot which I initially characterized as 'hard' starting, possibly throwing some people off as to what the problem could be. The shop I brought it to is experienced with the classic cars and is probably the last stanchion of automotive hope in our state. Bob, the owner checked the carb, the choke, the battery, the emission hoses, the thermac, heat riser, and said everything was functioning properly. He grew up with the Rochester 4 barrel so there is no one more experienced in carbs. He said it was the starter. He is going to check the timing first and take it from there. I've gone through 4 starters in the last two years for failing components. I asked Bob why that was so and he said most likely the 'windings'. Some other person who is allegedly experienced in classics said it could be the coolant temperature sensor which is skeptical on my part. He diagnosed the symptoms without seeing the car. The coolant temperature sensor is supposedly faulty on a cold start not hot. He said it could be both from previous experience.
So, the car is again 'slow starting' when hot and I wish not to be stranded. Bob said, there is some hesitation also when the car is cool. That is why he's going to check the timing. What the timing has to do with slow start is unknown to me. The battery reading on the car sitting is 12.3. volts and 14.4 volts when running (Alternator). Any assistance is truly appreciated.
Last edited by synoptic12; Oct 13, 2025 at 10:10 AM.
Your car has the CCC computer controlled Qjet and distributor. This is not a "classic" car in the sense of a Holley and points. Few people knew how to properly adjust the CCC system when they were new, nearly no one does now. I ASSUME your car still has all these components. If not, then we need to know what non-stock things have been done to it. With the CCC system, timing advance is controlled by the computer. You need to short the A and B terminals of the ALDL connector to allow the computer to accept a new initial timing. The carb needs to be adjusted using either a dwellmeter on the test connector near the carb or with a scan tool. Does your mechanic understand this? The procedure in the Chassis Service Manual must be followed EXACTLY. If you don't have a CSM, get one. I have never gone through starters that quickly, so you had better figure out what the real problem is. Are the battery cables new? Is the starter support strap in place (it provides a critical ground path for the starter)? Is the rest of the starting circuit in good shape? Have you done a current draw and/or voltage drop test on the starter circuit? And excessively advanced timing will cause the plugs to fire prematurely, which will cause slow cranking. Again, the timing has to be set following the CSM instructions. This is not a normal "classic car".
"Slow starting" to most of us means that the engine turns over with the starter motor for an excessive amount of time before the engine fires. Your condition would be more appropriately called "slow cranking", eliminating the actual firing or ignition events from the perceived problem. Hope that helps.
Your car has the CCC computer controlled Qjet and distributor. This is not a "classic" car in the sense of a Holley and points. Few people knew how to properly adjust the CCC system when they were new, nearly no one does now. I ASSUME your car still has all these components. If not, then we need to know what non-stock things have been done to it. With the CCC system, timing advance is controlled by the computer. You need to short the A and B terminals of the ALDL connector to allow the computer to accept a new initial timing. The carb needs to be adjusted using either a dwellmeter on the test connector near the carb or with a scan tool. Does your mechanic understand this? The procedure in the Chassis Service Manual must be followed EXACTLY. If you don't have a CSM, get one. I have never gone through starters that quickly, so you had better figure out what the real problem is. Are the battery cables new? Is the starter support strap in place (it provides a critical ground path for the starter)? Is the rest of the starting circuit in good shape? Have you done a current draw and/or voltage drop test on the starter circuit? And excessively advanced timing will cause the plugs to fire prematurely, which will cause slow cranking. Again, the timing has to be set following the CSM instructions. This is not a normal "classic car".
Granted, the points you make are valid. I do have the Oldsmobile manual and I believe that Bob is well versed in the details you point out. Everything you mentioned I've read in the Olds' manual. However, I'm not going through that which is why I brought the car to him. Well, a classic is I believe 40 years for sure; certainly not the muscle cars of the 60's, and/or 70'. I'm going to copy what you said and bring that to Bob. He'll probably laugh yet I will give him the details tomorrow.
Whether you know it or not and it may be meaningless but my Olds' was the lead vehicle in the Oldsmobile mototcade in 1997 at Lansing Michigan. Thanks very much for your support and I'll keep you posted.
"Slow starting" to most of us means that the engine turns over with the starter motor for an excessive amount of time before the engine fires. Your condition would be more appropriately called "slow cranking", eliminating the actual firing or ignition events from the perceived problem. Hope that helps.
Yes, I'm sorry about misconstruing the terminology. I guess specifics are important. So, if 'slow cranking' is just that "slow cranking" what would be the possibilities of problems? Thank you for the courtesy and support.
Last edited by synoptic12; Oct 13, 2025 at 11:50 AM.
I'm well aware of that and gave it thought. I know it was advanced a couple of degrees many years ago. I belive stock is 20° TDC. I'm sorry about yesterday, my fault without any doubt.
I would imagine that is why he's going in to check the timing. The car has not been timed in well over twenty years.
This is what I found adjoined to 'slow cranking':
Common causes
Faulty starter motor: Heat can cause the internal components of the starter to expand, increasing resistance and making it harder for it to turn the engine. Worn brushes or burned grease inside the starter can also cause it to bind when hot.
Heat soak: The engine's heat can transfer to the starter motor, creating enough resistance to slow it down. This can be exacerbated by replacing original heat-dissipating parts (like cast iron exhaust manifolds) with components that don't sink as much heat.
Weak or old battery: A battery that is nearing the end of its life may be strong enough to start the engine when cool but lacks the power to crank it effectively when hot.
Poor electrical connections: Corroded or loose connections at the battery or starter can create high electrical resistance, which gets worse when heat expands the metal parts. A poor ground strap is a common culprit.
This is what I found adjoined to 'slow cranking':
Common causes
Faulty starter motor: Heat can cause the internal components of the starter to expand, increasing resistance and making it harder for it to turn the engine. Worn brushes or burned grease inside the starter can also cause it to bind when hot.
Heat soak: The engine's heat can transfer to the starter motor, creating enough resistance to slow it down. This can be exacerbated by replacing original heat-dissipating parts (like cast iron exhaust manifolds) with components that don't sink as much heat.
Weak or old battery: A battery that is nearing the end of its life may be strong enough to start the engine when cool but lacks the power to crank it effectively when hot.
Poor electrical connections: Corroded or loose connections at the battery or starter can create high electrical resistance, which gets worse when heat expands the metal parts. A poor ground strap is a common culprit.
Hopefully, it wil not be a disaster.
You'll note that none of those include over-advanced initial timing, which is why those AI-generated responses on the interwebs are not particularly valuable.
The CES light is not illuminated. In your post #103 would any of the symptoms flash a code on the OBD 1?
No. The CCC system is pretty stupid and has a very limited repertoire of trouble codes. My experience with these cars is that a problem either doesn't set a code or sets a misleading code. One really needs to understand how the CCC system works to diagnose problems. The newer OBD II systems have an order of magnitude more telemetry sensors, thus the ability to set codes that are actually useful.
No. The CCC system is pretty stupid and has a very limited repertoire of trouble codes. My experience with these cars is that a problem either doesn't set a code or sets a misleading code. One really needs to understand how the CCC system works to diagnose problems. The newer OBD II systems have an order of magnitude more telemetry sensors, thus the ability to set codes that are actually useful.
I would hope that N. Providence Tire (Bob) is versed with the CCC as a few mechanics have had more than one of the Olds' Cut. Sup. I certainly agree with you regarding the sensors or the amount thereof to activate a trouble code. I believe my Olds may have a handful of sensors as opposed to my Challenger that may have 40 or more with the OBD II. The CCC is really not that complicated with the OBD 1 yet you say many know not on how to properly adjust the CCC system. 'My engine (307) still has all the components of the original emission control system'. Let me ask a dumb question, 'Would the back of a catalytic converter where it's joined to the rear tailpipe create an issue if it were leaking slightly at the joint'? Irrespective of all this, what do you believe is the cause in the content posted up to this point, "slow cranking" when hot; if I got that right? Most of the responses along with my research has pointed to: 1) Starter with the possibility of cables, straps, or heat shield as pointed out by you 2.) Ignition timing: Too far advanced. I really do not see any issue with the Rochester 4 barrel in my opinion. I would only believe that Bob already checked the cables, etc. but again I'm going to provide to him your assessment along with the CSM if he'll accept it or just laugh. Again , bringing the car in tomorrow.
* As a sidenote you would not be classified as an L1 ASE technician would you? I would like to find one of those guys but they're probably all dead or brain dead.
Last edited by synoptic12; Oct 13, 2025 at 02:03 PM.
................* As a sidenote you would not be classified as an L1 ASE technician would you? I would like to find one of those guys but they're probably all dead or brain dead.
You get one of these every five years, when you take all (8) re-certification tests and pass them. I could only put my hands on three right now. Not dead yet, but been retired for six years.
I dropped off my car today and told Mark, Bob's brother about the timing, "If they knew how to perform the tests". He laughed as I said . Anyway, Bob just called me and said the 'timing' is o.k.. He has ordered a starter which will take about four days. All replies are appreciated. Anything I should add in telling him anything more?
You get one of these every five years, when you take all (8) re-certification tests and pass them. I could only put my hands on three right now. Not dead yet, but been retired for six years.
Are you familiar with the L1 classification? You're certainly qualified. My timing is o.k. They're going to install a starter. Is there anything I should include in telling him? Why am I going on my 5th starter within two years? N. Prov. Tire said he didn't know but probably the 'windings'.
1.) First starter orederd from Amazon and took it to a mechanic. He installed it but I heard a clanking within three days. I took it back and he left the heat shield partially off. I said don't they fit? He said sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. Had him replace the starter which died within two weeks with another. Never went back there again. (That's two starters)
2.) I went to another mechanic who installed a O'Reilly starter (Lifetime Warranty). That died with a couple of weeks. He installed the second one (Now at four starters) and that lasted until now, maybe a year.
3.) Now I'm at my 5th starter going to be installed. I talked witn the district manager from NAPA and he said he has 37 years experience and I should be looking for the cause. He said there are rebuilders still in the business that could determine what's going wrong with the starters. * I would only believe that if there is an issue with the wiring/cables they would find that upon installation of the starter, 'no'?
I'm sure N. Providence Tire is well experienced in this field with older cars. If they say or are looking at the starter, it must be the starter. Would 'battery cables' going to the starter be a possible cause or anything else involving the wiring. I cannot believe that a bad ground would cause 'slow cranking' when hot. Reply if you have a chance.
Last edited by synoptic12; Oct 14, 2025 at 02:14 PM.
