[planning on installing prior to timing.QUOTE=synoptic12;1652211]* Please point out on post #14 where I have the 'exact opposite issue' as you state?.... [/QUOTE]

I'm still having hesitation on startup 'sporadically'.............When I start the engine there is a delay and somewhat hard to start, then runs like gangbusters. No issues with sputtering, backfiring, hesitation, and rough idle or shaking.

From your post #36:

• Intermittent Issues:
  A failing module can be heat-sensitive, causing the problem to appear or worsen as the engine gets hot and then potentially restart after the vehicle cools down.
• Temperature Sensitivity:
  The engine may run fine when cool but start to misfire or die as it reaches operating temperature.

Sounds to me like the opposite condition of what you posted above.

 

I'm still having hesitation on startup 'sporadically'.............When I start the engine there is a delay and somewhat hard to start, then runs like gangbusters. No issues with sputtering, backfiring, hesitation, and rough idle or shaking.

From your post #36:

• Intermittent Issues:
  A failing module can be heat-sensitive, causing the problem to appear or worsen as the engine gets hot and then potentially restart after the vehicle cools down.
• Temperature Sensitivity:
  The engine may run fine when cool but start to misfire or die as it reaches operating temperature.

Sounds to me like the opposite condition of what you posted above. [/QUOTE]

* Well, I may have not have been specific enough for you so I'll spell it out clearly. To begin, the HEI Ignition Module are the 'brains' which calculate the fuel, timing, etc. "Going through the ECM) as stated in earlier posts by me. If the HEI IGNITION MODULE is weak and/or failing there is 'no need' to time the engine in my opinion. I do not recognize any 'opposite' directive in what you claim. As you state what I stated: "I'm still having hesitation on startup 'sporadically'.............When I start the engine there is a delay and somewhat hard to start, then runs like gangbusters. No issues with sputtering, backfiring, hesitation, and rough idle or shaking.


*That is true. However, not at "all" times does the engine not start. That is why I said "sporadically" > 'Intermittent' > 'Not knowing when it will occur'. There is a strong possibility that the hard start condition is more prevalent after the car has run for a while and is warm or hot; then causing a hard start condition. Even this facet is 'intermittent' but mostly a steady fact. I do not know how much more I can say here.

 

What is it that Ron White said? "You can't fix......." Thank you and have a pleasant day. I give up.

 

* I have no idea who 'Ron White' is or what he said. Irrespective of that, this is what always happens when one cannot answer or address the isssues that I present. They just move to Non Sequiturs. I have made my position clear in trying to find a solution by those with experience in the field of automotive expertise. Sometimes, I find people unwilling to help or just toss out a bunch of possible causes without delving into specifics; the many. May God bless you.

 

No. The ignition module just provides spark and has nothing to do with air/fuel. Air/fuel is the carburetor’s function.

Regarding the ignition timing and the module: the ignition module generates a spark in response to a trigger event. ‘When” the trigger event occurs is related to the ignition timing setting. So you need to ensure the timing is set correctly so the spark occurs at the appropriate point.

 

Thank you very much. I believe what you're saying is that the 'trigger event' is adjoind/related to the 'timing setting'. That surely makes sense yet I'm uncertain of that fact according to the below.
Can you elaborate here so that I may not spend any unnecessary costs. If you read below, the content is somewhat different that what you say. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm looking at white papers for the most accurate responses to the faulty functions of a HEI Ignition Module.


** An HEI (High Energy Ignition) module, also known as an ignition control module, functions as the "brain" of the HEI system, controlling the timing and energy of the spark that ignites fuel in the engine's cylinders. It works by sending signals to the ignition coil, causing it to build up and then release a powerful electrical charge to the spark plugs for efficient combustion. Unlike older systems, the HEI module is an electronic, maintenance-free component that provides a more reliable and higher-energy spark, leading to better performance and reduced emissions.
How it Works
Signal Reception: The magnetic pickup coil inside the distributor sends a signal (a saw-tooth sine wave) to the module as the distributor shaft rotates.
Coil Charging (Dwell): The HEI module uses transistors to receive this signal and control the current sent to the primary side of the ignition coil, charging it with energy.
Coil Discharge (Spark): When the module receives the signal to fire, it shuts off the current to the coil's primary circuit. This sudden collapse of the magnetic field in the coil generates a high-voltage spark in the coil's secondary circuit.
Spark Delivery: This high-energy spark travels through the distributor cap, rotor, and spark plug wires to the spark plugs, igniting the fuel-air mixture in the engine's combustion chamber.
Expanding Dwell: The HEI module has a patented "expanding dwell" feature, which adjusts the duration of coil charging to match engine speed, ensuring optimal coil saturation and spark energy from idle to high RPMs.
Key Features and Benefits
Higher Voltage: Provides a significantly hotter and more powerful spark compared to older points-type systems.
No Ballast Resistor: Eliminates the need for a ballast resistor, as the module allows the coil to operate at full battery voltage.
Increased Spark Plug Life: The higher energy spark helps burn off deposits and increases spark plug life, especially with unleaded fuels.
Maintenance-Free: The electronic module replaces mechanical points and a condenser, eliminating the need for routine maintenance.
Improved Combustion: The hot spark ensures more complete combustion, resulting in increased engine power and efficiency.

* Is the above information correct? Not being an expert in this area I'm asking you if I should just have the engine "Timed" or state to the shop that sometimes when the engine gets warm and/or hot there is difficulty starting? I do not like to be deceptive to anyone regardless if they're honest or not; just the way I am. Again, I appreciate the asistance whereby others just toss out a 'conglomerate' of possibilities. Not saying they're wrong but it could be a whole host of items associated with a delayed or difficult starting engine. I tried to do the best to alleviate the problem I was having.

 

All of that is correct. This is the part that relates to the initial timing setting:

• Signal Reception: The magnetic pickup coil inside the distributor sends a signal (a saw-tooth sine wave) to the module as the distributor shaft rotates.

“When” the signal from the magnetic pickup coil is generated varies depending upon the initial ignition timing. One component is fixed on the distributor housing and another rotates with the distributor shaft. This is how the spark timing’s relation to the piston position in the cylinder can be “advanced” or “retarded”. Rotate the distributor housing one direction and the timing is increased, and rotate the housing the opposite direction and the timing is decreased.

 

I’d tell them both.

 

Thanks very much for being straight forward. I'll keep you informed. Should I replace the HEI Ignition Module and HEI Ignition Coil in the interim? I do not believe it will do any harm and see it as preventative maintenance. If they find an issue (Shop) inside the distributor they'll charge me plenty. At least I'm cutting it down to just the pick up coil as there is nothing left other than the distributor itself. If I have time tomorrow I'll pull the HEI coil and have it tested. How long can a coil last and ingition module? My car is 40 years old and those components were never replaced.

 

I had a pick up go bad in an HEI distributor. You can test a coil with a multimeter. Both the primary and secondary windings should have continuity. You'll read more resistance across the secondary winding.

If you replace the HEI module make sure you use thermal paste on it (not dielectric grease).

 

Thanks very much for the information. I'm going to take the coil to Napa to test for free. I'm using the Artic 4 Thermal Compound I received today from Amazon. The HEI Control Module is AC- Delco ( Part # 19179581) I ordered from Home Depot if you can believe it. I received the best price there : $59.00 as opposed to $80.00 to $140.00 from everyone else. I hope the HEI pick-up is O.K. Can I check that part?


Artic 4 Thermal Paste/Compound
Do you think 4g is enough?

 

Would any know how I can test a 7pin Hei Ignition Module?

GM Hei Ignition Module 7 PIN

 

You said the engine runs with no issues, so I would say all of your ignition components are functioning properly. Go back to the posts about the carburetor choke settings and initial timing.

 

Thanks very much. You may be right. I'll just bring it into the shop and see what they say. I have too much going on right now. I've performed enough labor on the car (7 hours or better).

 

You can get the HEI module tested at the auto parts store too. The problem is that they're known to be susceptible to engine heat. It could pass a bench test and then fail once you install it.

 

* I started the car this morning being 66° outside: Started right up. Drove a couple of miles and started right up again. I'm stumped. I made an appointment with the shop tomorrow. Do not know what to do. I'm going to coat the spark plug wire boots and distributor coil boots with dielectric grease today which I did not do when I installed the wires. What should I do? I really hate to pay a shop.

 

UPDATE:
I greased the spark plug wire boots and distributor coil boots. Took the car out for a five mile ride, getting the engine warm/hot. After returning home I shut the engine off and restarted On the restart there was a delay (5-10 seconds) > 'Like the engine would "not" start' yet started. Performed this twice,and the same result. It may be the hotter the engine gets, the worse it may be. Would this in any way be the 'starter' again. Went through 4 in the past year and one-half. All replies appreciated.

*As a side note that I'ne never made mention of is that I smell gas outside the car near or at the passenger side/ possibly tailpipe.

ADDENDUM
On the GBody forum here is what someone told me:

Charging at 14.3 volts is good you have been through starters so that's probably not it that leaves timing check that and the mechanical advance the weights (He told me to disregard that later) could be stuck those bushings wear out and or the shaft is gunked up causing the mechanical advance to stay advanced .Also the hall effects switches control timing maybe replace them while you got the dist apart .When I replaced mine I couldn't believe how bad they were it's best to pull the dist out and check the above. * This guy is apparently a crack pot. There is no such thing as a Hall Switch for a 1986 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Brougham 5.0 liter (307) VIN Y.

charging at 14.3 volts is good you have been through starters so that;s proudly not it that leaves timing check that and the mechanical advance the weights could be stuck those bushings wear out and or tcharging at 14.3 volts is good you have been through starters so that;s proudly not it that leaves timing check that and the mechanical advance the weights could be stuck those bushings wear out and or the shaft is gunked up causing the mechanical advance to stay advanced .also the hall effects switches control timing maybe replace them while you got the dist apart .when i replaced mine i couldn;t believe how bad they were it;s best to pull the dist out and check the above best of luckhe shaft is gunked up causing the mechanical advance to stay advanced .also the hall effects switches control timing maybe replace them while you got the dist apart .when i replaced mine i couldn;t believe how bad they were it;s best to pull the dist out and check the above best of luck

 

Supplement:
After three hours of sitting after driving 5 miles, the car starts as normal. There must be a heat issue, maybe starter again; unknown. What could this be? Heat is apparently effecting the starting process.

* Found this small info adjoined to the above and may have relevance.

• Heat affects a HEI Ignition Coil
• Fuel smell: Raw, unburned fuel may be expelled from the exhaust.

 

As noted a long time ago in post #22:

 

Well ,maybe. It also could be a HEI Ignition Coil, maybe; according to the below data.

• Heat affects a HEI Ignition Coil
• Fuel smell: Raw, unburned fuel may be expelled from the exhaust. * Mentioned in Post #58
• I believe I mentioned the smell of gas so that is a possibility associted with a HEI Ignition Coil.

At least I have narrowed the problem down. I'm taking it in the shop tomorrow and let them figure it out. Hopefully it will not be a major issue. I was going to test the HEI Ignition Coil but did not. Easy enough, just had to pull the coil. Thanks very much for your support. I'll let you know if you're right.

 

Update:
I've had the car in the shop for 'two days' and have not heard anything yet. I found the below information online, is it correct?
https://performanceolds307.tripod.com/id4.html


Cam Timing, Advanced or Retarded? I know this has nothing to do with your ignition ok but if you are using the stock Vin Y or Vin 9 cam than DO NOT advance the cam timing unless you like losing power, Let me explain. Advancing the cam will shift the basic RPM range downward. Four degrees of advance (from the original position) will cause the power range to start approximately 200 RPM sooner. Retarding it this same amount will move the power upward approximately 200 RPM. When you retard a Cam a few degrees the engine is then fooled into thinking that it has a slightly larger cam, when you advance the cam a few degrees the engine is then fooled into thinking it has a slightly smaller cam. The reason you hear of some many builders advancing the cam timing is because of two reasons
1. They are looking forward to the timing chain wearing in and droping the cam timing back some. but on most after market cams now in days they grind in 4 degrees advancement just to compensate timing chain wear so there is no need to advance a after market cam anymore
1. When you hear stories of someone that advanced his cam timing and gained a chunk of power that’s because the cam he was using was TOO LARGE for his setup so advancing the cam fooled the engine into thinking the cam was a little smaller and improved his power.
As for us 307 guys that are using a Vin Y or Vin 9 cam there is no reason to advance the cam timing because these cams are already wimpy as is so if anything you might want to fool the engine into thinking it has a slightly larger cam by retarding the cam a few degrees to get more power. The Vin Y cam loves to be about 3 degrees retarded for a strong power band but if you advance the Vin Y you will have a big wimp. The Vin 9 is good right on but can be improved with just 2 degrees retarded for a healthier breathing engine. I have heard of people getting higher, slower E.T, s at the track just from replacing a worn out stock chain for a new one. So if you have a Vin Y or 9 cam and the chain is got just a little slack don’t sweat it because most likely a new chain will just make your car a little slower and dont let a builder advance your cam timing, if he tries to advance your cam timing hes just proving to us how old school and out of date he is, school him in , if he don’t want to listen than call him an old timer and find someone else. One more thing if you change your cam timing always check your ignition timing afterward because it will need to be readjusted.


The HEI ignition that the 307 uses is a very good design. Using performance parts for your HEI is useless unless you have already purchased them (then you don’t want to hear that they are useless do you, sorry) or unless you are spinning RPMs higher then 6000 which I doubt unless you have done major work to your 307. The HEI already has a strong spark and is very dependable, it has only two weak spots in the system that I have noticed one is the ignition module, if your car runs fine while cold but after a while of driving it starts to die under heavy peddle and the problem gets worse as it gets hotter to the point that the car barely takes off without trying to die but after a cool down period its back to normal again intill it gets hot again then you might have a bad ignition module. This part is located just under the cap and rotor, it has two small hex screws holding it in and 3 terminals, 1 terminal on one side and 2 on the other side of the module. The other weak spot is the cap, between the coil and rotor is a spring loaded contact that delivers the jolt from the coil the rotor, well the cap holds the spring loaded contact in place but after some miles the plastic cap will crack and break right in the spot that it holds the spring loaded contact, leaving you with a weak spark. There is a "pick up coil" just under the rotor, it has two wires running from the module to the pick up coil, the pick up coil lets the ECM know what position the crank is in so the ECM knows when to signal the spark, if this goes bad you will get no spark at all. Before replacing the pick up coil make sure you check it with a digital volt meter.



Arrow Ignition Base Timing and Advancing Timing, How to set it and what it should be set at for better performance. Setting the base timing is the only control we have over the timing on the ECM controlled HEI ignition. The stock base timing on all 307s is 20 degrees before TDC. If it is set too retarded it will be a wimp, if its too advance you will experience some pinging (pre ignition). GM has designed and tuned these cars from factory to run on fuel octane rating as low as 87 octane but if you are planning on using better higher octane fuel like 91 or higher than you can advance your ignition timing to take advantage of the higher octane, results are smoother running engine, more free revving top end and better sharper throttle response. I have played with the base timing a lot on these 307s and I have learned that 3 to 4 degrees advanced from stock for a total of 23 to 24 before TDC is the best for street performance as long as you use 91 octane or higher but feel free to play with different settings yourself as long as you stay away from pinging. Here is how you set the base timing.
1. On a fully warm engine you must bypass the ECM so that the engine is running on its base timing here’s how, on a cutlass or regal under the radio by the driver's right knee you'll see a connector with two rows of pins, on all other 307 powered cars it will be under the steering wheel just above your knee. That is the ALDL (Assembly Line Diagnostic Link) connector. Pin A is in the upper right-hand corner (as you're looking at it), Pin B is right beside it. Bend a paper clip or small piece of wire into a U shape and insert it into both pins A and B so that they are connected together. this may cause the "service engine soon" light to flash error codes while the pins A and B are connected together but its ok.
2. Hook up your timing light, restart the engine, and check the timing by aiming the timing light at the harmonic balancer from the drivers side of the car just over the alternator. Use one hand to move the throttle and bring the RPMs up a bit, to about 1500RPM while watching the balancer with the light (the indicator on the balancer might be hard to see so cleaning might be needed if so) and noting the base timing.
3. If the timing needs to be adjusted, shut off engine, loosen the hold-down bolt at the base of the distributor were it meets the engine block. It's a 9/16th's bolt. A socket followed by a U-joint, then an extension makes it easiest. Restart engine and turn the distributor a few degrees while operating the timing light to get the timing just right where you want it (sometimes they might be hard to turn in this case you can grab the distributor in the middle of its neck with an 1 inch wrench to turn it). Shut off engine. Tighten the distributor bolt back down, recheck timing, and remove the ALDL jumper to un bypass the ECM.
timing-mark.jpg
This is your timing indicator located by your harmonic balancer

Sometimes the numbers are hard to see because of the dirt and grease covering them so I put this picture above here to help give you an idea, by counting the teeth you can know that your timing is it even if you cant see the numbers. The top of the picture is the passenger side of the timing indicator, going from top or passenger side as follows 24-20-16-12-8-4-0, so they jump 4 degrees per tooth on the indicator.

Oldsmobile 5.0 Liter (307) Firing Order

 

PLEASE, PLEASE DISREGARD THE ABOVE!!!

 

I wonder if the choke operation has been looked at yet?

 

Well, I may agree with you regarding the choke. They have not contacted me in two days now. I told them all the parts I installed and provided a list. I've been researching for quite a while now and I noticed that all parts associated with the symptoms have a 'no start' symptom,: maybe thirty items or more. What did you think of the recent information and link I posted in my last reply (Post #61) ? I cannot understand what is making the car extremely hard to start after the engine gets 'hot'. When the engine is cold , again there is no issue with starting and the tune-up I did certainly enhanced the power/ performance. However, I did not time the engine. Thanks very much for the assistance. I'm not calling them until they contact me. I really believed I would have had a response by this time.
* I hope they can find the problem.

 

Car engines need 3 things to run, fuel, compression, and a properly timed spark. Timing as well as the A/F mixture adjustment is part of any tuneup, just throwing parts at it will not correct anything if the engine is not adjusted with them.

 

I agree with you 100%. The parts I installed needed to be installed, plugs, plug wires, filters, dist. cap and rotor. The EGR Valve could have been cleaned as the diaphram was working properly. However, I had a spare and installed it: no harm. That surely didn't harm anything. Unfortunately, carbs have never been my bag. The person who rebuilt my Rochester 4 barrel had a carb shop then worked for a dealership, none better. He built the carburetor over thirty years ago; pretty good right. If it were that easy 'timing' and 'A/F mixture adjustment, "Why have they had the car in the shop for two days without contacting me?

 

Perhaps because they have not even lifted the hood yet.

 

* You're wiser than the wise. Do you actually believe that to be the case > 'Two "Full Days"? Thanks very much. You made me laugh and I never placed any creedance into that alleged fact you make mention of > 'not saying you're wrong by no means'. I'll surely let you know.

 

@Fun71
I'm still working. I would say that you have been the most accurate with your synopsis as to the problem I'm experiencing. Here are a couple of pics I took out of my 1986 Oldsmobile Manual which relates to the Hard Starting Hot and also to the Ignition Module. The Hard Starting Hot is key in rectifying the problem as you point to some critical points stated in the 'Hard Starting Hot' symptoms. Hopefully, the staff where I brought my car has the experience to find the problem. By the way, I did not tell them I wanted the car timed as I wish for them to find the issue. The time I spent installing the parts was long enough for me: at least seven hours. Do you agree with me not telling them about having the engine timed? Thanks very much for your input.

 

I called him today (garage) and he said it rained all day yesterday and could not get to it. Hoping to get to it today. He calls me at closing time and said "I don't see anything wrong with it". He said just pump the gas in the morning. I said, "You have to get the engine hot and it is difficult to start" He said, "Oh, I'll check it tomorrow". I specifically told him when I dropped it off that the engine has to be hot and it will have difficulty starting. He's had the car since Tuesday. I cannot believe it. This is the world we are living in and it's getting worse. By the way, I have the call logged and recorded. I said to check the timing and choke. That is when he said He'll look at it tomorrow. I'm at my wits end. I do not believe there is a way to upload the audio log for if there was I would upload it.

 

Hope he can figure it out. 🤞

 

Not for anything but I told him right to his face in person that the car has problems starting when it's hot and he calls me with the above response, "There's nothing wrong with it". He even questioned me as to the problem 'getting hot' (engine). I reiterated the same thing on the phone with him at closing time today when he called. I told him you must get the engine hot and drive it about five miles, then it is hard starting. I do not mean to be redundant but I cannot comprehend what serice centers (Garages) have turned into. I do not even know if they have the OBD 1 there. However, that would do no good for it would not throw out any codes for those symptoms. Most service centers are working with the OBD 2 as those mechanics that knew or worked with the OBD 1 are dead or brain dead. Again, my bag is not carburetors and I have not a clue who has knowledge of carbs today, at least in the state I reside. What is he going to tell me tomorrow?

 

The garage called today and said it was the "Starter" can you believe it. I've had 4 starters put in. He said the battery was good. He replicated the problem. what should I do?

 

I 1000% believe it.

 

Why is the starter causing the issue? Is there not voltage going to the distributor during start, you said it cranks fine?

 

That's good that he replicated the problem. If you bought the starter from the auto parts store you could always get him a new one (not rebuilt) and at least get partial credit from your warranty.

Don't let him carry on about him having to buy the parts. Remind him that for a car so old all the parts will come from the same source.

My father; @Oldsguy , had a 71 Cutlass S when I was a kid. He said that the starter would hang up from time to time. He'd turn the key and hear the click of the starter relay, but the car wouldn't crank. He'd have to beat on the starter with a rubber mallet while my Mom turned the key to get the car to start.

I've read that others on our site have had this problem with their A body Cutlii. I don't know about G bodies. Plus my dad's Cutlass had headers which contributed to heat soak.

 

It does not crank fine when it's hot and he said there is some hesitation when the car is cold. I forget the exact terminology. He's going to check the timing and see how it goes, then replace the starter. He gave me a price of $370.00. That's worth it if the engine is tuned. He checked all the emission hoses, checked the choke (Nothing wrong with the Choke) nor the carburetor. He owns the shop and he grew up with Rochester 4 barrels which I was unaware of. Checked the heat riser valve and thermac. The invoices on his counter are numerable, more so than a dealership. He is the last stanchion of automotive hope that has knowledge of classic cars. I was somewhat irate at what he said yesterday but have put that tone away.

 

I'd say 'she's definitely right' > "The driver".

 

I remember those tricks with the mallet and the starters hanging up. In fact, I used a screwdriver to touch both terminals to get the car started. I'm not playing those games today. I had another garage put in a Lifetime starter from O'Reilly. That died within two weeks and he put in another yet charged me labor. He's finshed as anyone I would ever go to again. And, O'Reilly, I will never buy their crap ever again. When people say Lifetime guarantees are that because the 'parts' are made in China (TRUE). He will not deal with Autozone. He works with NAPA. I trust his judgment. As far as the other idiot that installed the O'Reilly "Lifetime Warranty"; I'm not going back down that route. I'll eat the loss in favor of knowledge. Again, people have all turned into thieves. I hope they all rot in hell.

 

99% of this thread has been about ignition related item with a small mention of going through multiple starters. No where did you describe slow or no cranking to lead anyone to point to a starter issue.