Allan R

Ok, got this tidbit from a guy at the car show yesterday. It is from NAPA and the vendor was on site trying to 'inform' and maybe drum up some business for those of us who have old cars.

So here's the pitch: If your car is older than 1996 (or doesn't have roller bearing lifters) the claim is that modern oil doesn't contain enough ZDDP to prevent wear on the bottom of flat bottom lifters. I'm not an expert on this so I am just going to paste the web link in for your review. http://www.camoils.com/about.html How would using something like slick 50 work to reduce friction if the oil needs an additive?

Has anyone got anything that supports or rejects this claim? I have Castrol 10W30 in my Cutlass and I planned to keep changing it out with Castrol or Pennzoil as needed. Is the claim about oil additives serious? I know that most of you with 1985 and newer engines already have roller bearing lifters so it's not an issue for you. My engine is still original though with 120344 original miles, and is not showing signs of quitting.

oldcutlass

We've had this discussion thru various posts, and there are some oils specifically formulated with zddp. There also additives to add zddp to your oil. I will research this company thru NAPA.

MDchanic

Oh no, not again...

- Eric

edit:

To clarify, the folllowing list goes back only a bit over a year - there's more to find if you like to dig...
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...reference.html
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...35220-oil.html
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-do-i-use.html
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...additives.html
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...23784-oil.html
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...motor-oil.html
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...oil-break.html

66-3X2 442

If you have an engine without roller lifters,it's in your best interest to run a zinc additive or an oil formulated with zinc. The guys @ the engine shop where I get my engines built turned me onto it. The cam companies started seeing camshafts go flat and it coincided with the zinc being taken out of the oil. I use Brad Penn oil that has the zinc in it or you can use an additive like ZDP. I may be late to the party on this discussion but that's my belief.

henryk8398

If you need to add zinc, Ive heard a bottle of STP will do the trick. Cheap and plentiful. Add it and forget it. I built my first engine (Pontiac 400) with a flat tappet cam back in 2008. I always made sure to use STP or GM EOS. Never had a problem.

oldcutlass

I've been using the STP or the O'Reileys oil treatment bot have ZDDP in them. I also use the Valvoline racing oils which have ZDDP.

halfmoontrail

Flamesuit On: Motor oil is motor oil. As long as it's clean and the proper viscosity, you will be fine in virtually all instances.

There was the same sort of hysteria about valve recession when lead was removed from gasoline. It did occur, but it was VERY rare. Turns out that enough lead got hammered into moving engine parts for the lubricating qualities to remain for the useful life of the engine. The same result is expected with zinc and related compounds.

I am an old car nut, as well as a trained and licensed mechanical engineer, with a background in machine design and materials science.

I'll go ahead and really stir the pot: I only use premium fuel (93 octane here in FL) in all my vehicles, regardless of what the owner's manual says on the newer ones.

Steve

cutlassgal

Crap.... I always start worrying when I read threads like these!! Oil is such a confusing thing...... I think she has Penzoil in her now, and I just run cheap gas in her. I used to add the lead additive to the gas until I read on here that it's not necessary. She runs great, no pings, rattles or anything else.

AZ455

I run Shell Rotella T in my Olds. Rotella T still contains 1200 ppm ZDDP. Not sure what the recommended or standard quantity was when this engine was new, but it's gotta be better than none.

I did contact Shell back in May to verify the ZDDP quantity. I had heard rumors that it went down.

cutlassjoe

Yea Sandy this confuses me too. I know just enough to be dangerous. I run 10W-30 Valvoline, but my friends say a 40 weight would be better. My engine builder told me to only run Sunoco Ultra 94 because of the high compression. Well that stuff is pretty expensive. I was coming home from a cruise night and needed gas. The highest they had was 91. She runs fine on that.

I have also heard that diesel oil has lots of zinc in it, and is a bit heavier. Now my head hurts....

cutlassgal

I hear ya, lol!!!

Indy_68_S

I had this discussion with my machinist/builder & he said the same. This is true for original engines. But, at least in my case, I was concerned about fresh rebuild.

A new cam/tappet lifters would need zinc and freshly cut valve seats would no longer have their lead.

He recommended new seats and we're still deciding on the new cam. Roller lifters are one way around the zinc issue....

Allan R

Sorry Eric, didn't realize this had been brought up so many times before.

I've always used that same principle. Actually I probably change the oil more often than I need to. I've started using premium fuel. Most of the premium here is 91. It seems to improve overall fuel economy - especially on the highway. Even though it costs more, it appears that I can go further on a tank. Haven't noticed any change in the way the engine performs otherwise.

RAMBOW

Unless your engine is really radical (high valve spring rates & high lift & duration cam) you are probably fine with regualr oils once the engine is properly broken in.

For the initial breakin, and the first oil change or two after that, i would run EOS and/or off road racing oil with the extra zddp in it... but after that, you are likely fine. If the parts were going to fail they would have failed in that time period.

Now if you DO have high spring pressures and high lift/duration cam... then you might want to consider special oils all the time to prevent excess wear.

Just my $.02

66-3X2 442

This should help in the debate.

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/

442much

Alan,

I stopped at a Husky Station the other day and they had 94 (Super Premium) with "May contain up to 10% Ethanol". Email me at home (so I don't forget) and tonight I'll send you our newsletter from last year with an article about zinc content in the oil. If anyone else wants a copy, email me at president@oldsnorthernlights.com and I'll send you a copy as well.

Run to Rund

I use Chevron Delo 400 15-40 CI4+ rated oil that doesn't meet CJ specs (meaning the older formulation) in engines with flat tappets. The quicker the ramps on the lobes, the more valve spring pressure, and the smaller diameter the tappet, the more critical to have high amounts of ZDDP, such as CI4+ spec oil. Note the oil companies are allowed to say that CJ oils also meet CI4+ but that is a political rationale. Racing oils such as Brad Penn are good if they have enough ZDDP, and EOS can help. I don't know what is in STP so can't comment on it.

Valve seat recession with integral iron seats such as Olds A, B, C heads will occur much faster with hard running, racing, valve float, etc. if you use unleaded gas without special additives. If all you do is chug onto the show field, you probably won't have any problem.

atkinsom

Ultimately what grade of oil would you guys recommend on a stock 350 rebuild that has already been broken in? I've used 5W-30 with a syntehtic weargard and the motor seems to be happy but you never know.

MDchanic

My owner's manual recommends:

• 5W20 for constant temperatures below 20°F (-6°C),
• 5W30 (what you're using) for temperatures below 60°F (including temps below 20°),
• 10W for temperatures between 0° and 60°F,
• 10W30 or 10W40 for temperatures above 0°F, and
• 20W20, 20W40, or 20W50 for temperatures over 20°F.

So, you're using a viscosity that's recommended for temperatures that never go above 60°F (15°C). If that's the case, then you're okay. If not, then your oil's too thin.

Most of us should be using 10W40 (if we've got a fairly low-mileage engine) or 20W50, unless we operate at temperatures well below freezing.

I'm not sure where some people have got the idea that thin oils are appropriate for forty or fifty year old cars, but, in general, unless you've had some fancy non-stock machine work done, they're not.

- Eric

66 Olznut

I can't find the Delo in CI+ rating, only CJ. The only diesel oil I've seen with a CI+ is Mobil Delvac 1300 and Walmart sells it. I have a pre emission 2006 Ram 5.9L Cummins which have flat tappets so I look for it for the same reasons you mentioned.

Run to Rund

I have been buying the CI 4 + rated Chevron Delo 400 at my local Chevron distributor in 5 gallon pails. Most sources like Costco now offer only the "low emissions" CJ.

coltsneckbob

How much are you guys saving by running on a lower grade of fuel then recommended or using a non-zinc oil. As far as I am concerned I prefer to be safe then sorry. Not only do I use a blend of Sunoco Ultra and 110 racing fuel, but the racing fuel is leaded. Granted if your car is a daily driver (which mine is not) racing fuel can be expensive, but in that case use an octane booster. I dunno sometimes it is true about being "penny wise and pound foolish". Since apparently there is no definitive answer why not treat your baby right???

navvet

OH Brother all the opinions and web sites. I run my crankcase dry.NO OIL at all and the engine runs great Ha HA. All joking aside the information and thoughts from all are a great learning tool for me. I am learning a great deal regarding lead additives and inexpensive ways to get ZDDP in my oil. From my first car 35 years ago I have always had great long term results with STP and Marvel oil additives.
I have had my 64 olds for 4 years and put only 2K miles on it but have changed oil three times. It has 81K original miles and is running very well.

nickd

Funny this has come from a NAPA rep when I have seen Napa oil literally breakdown When pulling a small boat with a 89 Chevy 350 averaging about 70 mph. Lets just say when we made it to our destination it was changed and no ticking ever after. That Napa oil was just put in before the trip so I'm pretty sure it was the oil

DeltaDevil88

+1 well said.......sounds like someone is just on a money making mission.