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That should work pretty good. Look what came in the mail today. It looked like they dragged it from Ontario, thanks again.
wow the mail is slow to say the least, how did it get wet? looks rusty, that's pretty pathetic when a private company can deliver in days and our postal system a month.
Nothing is mismatched. Unfortunately, Edelbrock's 68cc head still isn't out, which your build hinged on. It would be ideal if they would follow Mark's advice and go a few smaller CC on their small block head like the BBO version. We saw a nice 358 build from Rogue Ryder, it put out nearly 450 HP with these pistons and 9.6 to 1. Goinlg from a 670 cfm to 750 cfm carb wlould have probably crossed 450 hp.
nothing is mismatched? other than the compression being way lower than what it should be and cutting the intake so the bolts line up instead of the ports
whats more important, bolts lining up, or the port alignment ? maybe can tell us how you calculate port air speed while your at it and how it doesn’t matter.
you shouldn’t be offering anyone advice after the mess you made of your engine.
oh ya, that engine made 435 with 9.75 do you know the .200 duration numbers of both cams since you’re the one comparing the two?
nothing is mismatched? other than the compression being way lower than what it should be and cutting the intake so the bolts line up instead of the ports
whats more important, bolts lining up, or the port alignment ? maybe can tell us how you calculate port air speed while your at it and how it doesn’t matter.
you shouldn’t be offering anyone advice after the mess you made of your engine.
oh ya, that engine made 435 with 9.75 do you know the .200 duration numbers of both cams since you’re the one comparing the two?
He''s looking for cruiser, you were too busy to help either of us and you only bash everyone else on the forum. Mark has done a few of these with similar power numbers. I can send you my 403 stroker parts, work you magic. My 350 is together, only expecting a little better than 300 hp, SEFI and drive it. If Edelbrock ever releases their head, then they can go on with my roller cam. Any of these motors need to at least the 450 HP/TQ and either very steep gearing and very high stall or something like the wide ratio TKX or 6X 4L80E conversion to compete against modern entry or mid level pony cars. I ran 14's with a 9.6 to 1 Olds 350 with the same cam, 2350 stall 2004R and 3.42 gears in 3750 poud G body. Not fast at all but also not the 16.5 second the 307 HO cars ran factory. With the 3.08 gears you sold me and spot on EFI tune, it should run similar. The same as my GT AWD Challenger, the slowest yet most practical modern Challenger, awesome cruising around our currently icy roads. But my Olds won't get the 40 mpg my GT gets highway no matter what I do. Why don't you mill his heads, put your butt on the line if he has pinging issues. Dave, do 12 to 1, see I have no stake in it. If he does it and it is awful to drive, I can claim the tune is wrong. I assume you guys have easily available 94 octane in Ontario? The best we have here is 91 non ethanol. I'm not an expert, you are, actually help him out!
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; October 26th, 2023 at 06:06 AM.
It's all good Christian, I appreciate Dale's advice, I did find another shop that can do it, I just wanna phone around a few more places before I go back for round 2 lol, you guys are easy compared to the wife lol
there is more important info than what’s listed on the cam card. Like the .200 duration numbers.
that’s found on the master lobe list. Just because two cams have similar numbers on the cam card, doesn’t tell the whole story. that Lunati cam has a more aggressive lobe profile than your comp lobe..
It's all good Christian, I appreciate Dale's advice, I did find another shop that can do it, I just wanna phone around a few more places before I go back for round 2 lol, you guys are easy compared to the wife lol
forest and forest has an in house Dyno. I haven’t heard anything bad about them.
you don’t need to have your heads milled by an engine shop. Any competent machine shop can do that for you. Just tell them them the final cut needs have a smooth finish.
you live in Sarnia which is a filled with heavy industry. there must be a machine shop that can cut your heads. Google surface grinding or milling in Sarnia, you’ll find something
I just googled surface grinding/ milling in Sarnia..a whole pile of machine shops popped up.
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; October 26th, 2023 at 08:35 AM.
He''s looking for cruiser, you were too busy to help either of us and you only bash everyone else on the forum. Mark has done a few of these with similar power numbers. I can send you my 403 stroker parts, work you magic. My 350 is together, only expecting a little better than 300 hp, SEFI and drive it. If Edelbrock ever releases their head, then they can go on with my roller cam. Any of these motors need to at least the 450 HP/TQ and either very steep gearing and very high stall or something like the wide ratio TKX or 6X 4L80E conversion to compete against modern entry or mid level pony cars. I ran 14's with a 9.6 to 1 Olds 350 with the same cam, 2350 stall 2004R and 3.42 gears in 3750 poud G body. Not fast at all but also not the 16.5 second the 307 HO cars ran factory. With the 3.08 gears you sold me and spot on EFI tune, it should run similar. The same as my GT AWD Challenger, the slowest yet most practical modern Challenger, awesome cruising around our currently icy roads. But my Olds won't get the 40 mpg my GT gets highway no matter what I do. Why don't you mill his heads, put your butt on the line if he has pinging issues. Dave, do 12 to 1, see I have no stake in it. If he does it and it is awful to drive, I can claim the tune is wrong. I assume you guys have easily available 94 octane in Ontario? The best we have here is 91 non ethanol. I'm not an expert, you are, actually help him out!
im not bashing anyone. I’m offering real world advice that I know works. you need to listen more and talk less…seriously.
i understand more what he wants than you. He’s got 3:08’s and a 2,500 converter which I know for a fact will need a lot of low end TQ
you proclaimed his 2,500 stall will work good without the engine even being Dyno’d yet? that’s amazing how you already know that
Happy Wife, happy life😁. I never said Dale's advice was bad, he assumed that was my implication. I just showed another build that made decent power. And looking at the graph, a 3000 stall may be in order. Of course it will depend on his ACTUAL DYNO sheet. Dale actually help him out, don't just Andy Miller it from your computer!
Happy Wife, happy life😁. I never said Dale's advice was bad, he assumed that was my implication. I just showed another build that made decent power. And looking at the graph, a 3000 stall may be in order. Of course it will depend on his ACTUAL DYNO sheet. Dale actually help him out, don't just Andy Miller it from your computer!
No, you don’t give it more converter. Doing that with 3:08’s will just make the car be ON the converter when just cruising around under lighter throttle. he needs more low end TQ
his fix is cutting the heads to get the compression up and also figure out where the cam was installed at. Minimum 4 advanced is needed
No, you don’t give it more converter. Doing that with 3:08’s will just make the car be ON the converter when just cruising around under lighter throttle. he needs more low end TQ
his fix is cutting the heads to get the compression up and also figure out where the cam was installed at. Minimum 4 advanced is needed
I will up the compression to 10-1, and the machinist said he degreed the cam , I can't verify that and have to hope he did that at least, our town is an industrial town and our machine shops cater to the plants, there not interested in small engine jobs, as a matter of fact the machinist asked one of our big machine shops to do my intake and they wouldn't do it even though olds is easy and 90 cut, I need the one stop because the motor is fully assembled, needs to be stripped, cut, re built and dyno tuned.
Last edited by skyhigh; October 26th, 2023 at 02:13 PM.
Same here Dave. I was told the same thing by both shops. ABC in Regina is supposedly the shop to go to. It was one year waits BEFORE the Pandemic. Good luck, hopefully it gets done before Summer.
Same here Dave. I was told the same thing by both shops. ABC in Regina is supposedly the shop to go to. It was one year waits BEFORE the Pandemic. Good luck, hopefully it gets done before Summer.
I should at least have the motor done and dynoed by middle of Nov or so, when it gets dropped in the car is another story, the cash I was going to use for the electric fuel pump, new tank and what not will have to wait since I need that cash to do the heads and intake again.
Absolutely it will. Especially at the low end of the range. You’ll gain much more percentage wise going from 9 to 10 than say from 11 to 12 Yep
On a mismatched combo, which this is, it will be substantial. but not as much gain on a well sorted out combination.
I gained 60+ hp going from 10.5 to 11.5 between my 08 and 09 EMC engine when they upper the ratio by 1 point .With no other change? Then with the 11.5 in 2011 and a cam and intake change the total gain was another 15 for 70hp.
Then based on your earlier statement, with such a large gain, wouldn't that suggest that maybe your initial combination wasn't optimum to begin with? Conversely, imo the results of the second change seem to indicate that now the combination is more correct.
Last edited by cutlassefi; October 27th, 2023 at 10:40 AM.
Then based on your earlier statement, with such a large gain, wouldn't that suggest that maybe your initial combination wasn't optimum to begin with? Conversely, imo the results of the second change seem to indicate that now the combination is more correct.
no. It was built for a wide power band, from 2500 thru 6500. If you understood how engine masters rules worked you would know there are compromises. You think a 316” engine that made 400 ft lbs at 3k and still pulled to 6500 and made its peak 435 HP at 6300 wasn’t optimized?
I could have cam’d it to make more peak power, to impress the internet experts, but lose points because the averages would have been worse because of a TQ loss down low.
If you’re taking about the Mahle piston I designed, it’s 013 taller than most other aftermarket pistons.
Typically they’ll yield just over 9.0:1 with a 68cc chamber and stock type gasket.
since you designed these pistons..what were you thinking when you designed the massive 10.2cc valve reliefs?
thats crazy. No way would any Olds need that kind of relief depth, especially in a 4032 piston.
CP’s bullet line of 2618 Pistons for the 350 have a .075” depth relief that totals 1.4cc I’ve used .750” lift with all kids of durations and never had the need for anything deeper. That’s with. 2.2” int and 1.7” ex and pistons flush with the deck
since you designed these pistons..what were you thinking when you designed the massive 10.2cc valve reliefs?
thats crazy. No way would any Olds need that kind of relief depth, especially in a 4032 piston.
CP’s bullet line of 2618 Pistons for the 350 have a .075” depth relief that totals 1.4cc I’ve used .750” lift with all kids of durations and never had the need for anything deeper. That’s with. 2.2” int and 1.7” ex and pistons flush with the deck
You know what Dale, I’m not sure YOU get it.
How do you think I get these companies to make this stuff? Cuz ONE design fits 350 AND 400E AND 425’s. Look at the DSS Olds pistons for the same applications. They have less cc’s but still have valve reliefs AND an archaic ring pack. Why not ask them what THEY were thinking.
I actually wanted an 8cc dish, NO valve reliefs cuz they’re not needed. But my guy at Mahle told me they get more flack for not having valve reliefs than anything. And with the piston being .013 taller than the very popular L2321F for instance, that has about a 6cc dish, do the math and 8cc valve reliefs would’ve yielded nearly an identical comp ratio, apples to apples.
BUT, in order to make just one piston for all 3 engines, we settled on 10cc. In a 425 that yields high 9’s. Someone can mill the heads on any of these if they want more. AND because of the taller piston, you don’t necessarily have the added expense of having to use a thinner Cometic style gasket to get half decent squish.
And I know EXACTLY how the EMC scoring worked. Contrary to what you seem to believe, I’m not an idiot.
Last edited by cutlassefi; October 31st, 2023 at 05:05 AM.
You know what Dale, I’m not sure YOU get it.
How do you think I get these companies to make this stuff? Cuz one design fits 350 AND 400E AND 425’s. Look at the DSS Olds pistons for the same applications. They’re 12cc’s. Go criticize whoever did those.
I actually wanted an 8cc dish, NO valve reliefs cuz they’re not needed. But my guy at Mahle told me they get more flack for not having valve reliefs than anything. And with the piston being .013 taller than the very popular L2321F for instance, that has about a 6cc dish, do the math and 8cc valve reliefs would’ve yielded nearly an identical comp ratio, apples to apples.
BUT, in order to make just one piston for all 3 engines, we settled on 10cc. In a 425 that yields high 9’s. Someone can mill the heads on any of these if they want more. AND because of the taller piston, you don’t necessarily have the added expense of having to use a thinner Cometic style gasket to get half decent squish.
And I know EXACTLY how the EMC scoring worked. Contrary to what you seem to believe, I’m not an idiot.
then you didn’t design the piston, they designed it. Those massive valve reliefs are a big mistake on any Olds engine.
if you weren’t smart enough to explain to them why they aren’t needed, especially in a 4032, then you failed. How did CP get it right?
the amount of extra money guys are spending to get the compression UP on builds with these pistons because of those reliefs, outweighs the need for them in the first place…may as well order a custom piston and get exactly what’s needed.
the reliefs go off the edge of the piston and are so big they can cause hot spots and a bad burn..even you know that
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; October 31st, 2023 at 05:21 AM.
It was either this or nothing at the time. I’m sorry it’s not what YOU want. We knew EXACTLY what the pros and cons were regarding valve reliefs. But with that said, I don’t have to justify Dick to you.
When you ACTUALLY bring something to the market, ANYTHING, that guys don’t have to buy from you, then you can bitch all you want.
P.S.
I’ve had these for over a year, prototypes, in 4.100 and 4.125, 3cc’s.
How many sets do you want to commit to?
Done here.
Last edited by cutlassefi; October 31st, 2023 at 12:43 PM.
It was either this or nothing at the time. I’m sorry it’s not what YOU want. We knew EXACTLY what the pros and cons were regarding valve reliefs. But with that said, I don’t have to justify Dick to you.
When you ACTUALLY bring something to the market, ANYTHING, that guys don’t have to buy from you, then you can bitch all you want.
P.S.
I’ve had these for over a year, prototypes, in 4.100 and 4.125, 3cc’s.
How many sets do you want to commit to?
Done here.
It’s not that or nothing…anyone with a phone can call for a custom set. You know that…but your ego gets in the way.
you do have to justify a valve relief that isn’t necessary when YOU brag about being the designer of the piston. Thats YOUR own words.
why would I need to bring something to the market when I can order a custom set, with everything correct for the application?..which won’t need to whack the head a bunch$$$ to get compression up or deck the block? in the end I will have LESS money in it and have EXACTLY what’s required with valve reliefs, if needed.
I’ve measured the radius and depth of those huge reliefs…there isn’t an Olds engine in this world that needs those …none.
I’m not done
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; October 31st, 2023 at 02:13 PM.
I am so looking forward to CANADIANOLDS telling piston manufacturer's how to need to design a Olds piston.. When do you think that will happen!!!! Maybe you can work on getting some cranks done also. Rods, heads etc.
I am so looking forward to CANADIANOLDS telling piston manufacturer's how to need to design a Olds piston.. When do you think that will happen!!!! Maybe you can work on getting some cranks done also. Rods, heads etc.
if you want I can send you the serial numbers of any custom piston I’ve ordered? That’s what an “I’ve designed a piston” involves….I’ve ordered many custom pistons
then you can call and just order it by the serial number…if you want to post on here that I designed it, go ahead…it doesn’t matter to me.
I don’t need to boost my ego and call myself a piston designer….even if I got the valve reliefs correct.
Got you!! Custom and for the masses. Are two very different things.
Nope…once a piston is made and in the manufacturers data base it can be remade at any time with the serial number.
from then on it’s not a custom piston.. you can order a single one if you break one at any time.
they are no different than an off the shelf piston from then on. Believe me, all this screwing around spending money to whack a bunch off the heads or block or expensive thin gaskets is just wrong.
OK, I will bite. Price for custom piston compared to what is on the self? I know what custom CP pistons 4.155 are costing me. From my builder, I know that my build is a little out of the ordinary.
OK, I will bite. Price for custom piston compared to what is on the self? I know what custom CP pistons 4.155 are costing me. From my builder, I know that my build is a little out of the ordinary.
.
why would I need to bring something to the market when I can order a custom set, with everything correct for the application?
Because not everyone has that expertise.
I could give a rats *** if you never buy any of these, who cares.
Of course you wouldn’t bring anything to market, that everyone can buy almost anywhere. That would be out of character for you.
And you have absolutely no idea of the commitment I had to make to bring these and other pieces to market.
Conversely, I agreed to some of their “requirements” as well. Don’t you think that took a little burden off me if they didn’t sell? There are so many parts to this and the other projects I’ve been involved in that you clearly don’t get.
So please DON’T buy these, or any of the other stuff I’ve helped bring to market, ie the Molnar and Scat SBO rods, or the new Molnar BBO 6.735 rod. And most of all, PLEASE don’t purchase the new SBO head once it’s out. I’m tired of hearing you bitch and criticize about shyt you had absolutely nothing to do with, or clearly don’t want to take that next step to help with, for ALL to benefit from.
This is the last time I comment on this
Last edited by cutlassefi; November 1st, 2023 at 06:25 AM.
Again, My point is the cost between the two. You need only to look in Summit. To see the cheap and high end. Not sure what Mark charges.
custom about the piston
I am not the engine builder on this. Not my expertise. Best I can do is check, dissemble, fix and reassemble. Done that to my existing 350 SBO.
I left up this new one to a great builder. Told him to use the best parts.
Engine builder and race drivers. Most do not always give straight answers. Trade secrets like.
Machine Shop Work Suggestions. I learn the hard way! Had my last engine built, by guys my auto mechanic recommended. Just the block. crank, rods and pistons. He had the hacks from Kannapolis NC. Poteat's Engine Rebuilding. Did not put what I ask for. I tried to turn the crank, it would not move. Totally screwed up the crank and bearing. And never cleaned out the oil passages. And just silicone on wrong size rear freeze plug. I took it all apart and checked everything. John Wooten Automotive & Machining Hickory, NC polish my old N crank and align home.
You must do yourDUE DILIGENCE. To find a good Oldsmobile engine builder. Ask as many people that you can. To find a trustworthy builder. Oldsmobile experience is a must. To many chevy hacks out there. Google, facebook, Yelp reviews. Do not rush to get it done. That was my mistake.
Because not everyone has that expertise.
I could give a rats *** if you never buy any of these, who cares.
Of course you wouldn’t bring anything to market, that everyone can buy almost anywhere. That would be out of character for you.
And you have absolutely no idea of the commitment I had to make to bring these and other pieces to market.
Conversely, I agreed to some of their “requirements” as well. Don’t you think that took a little burden off me if they didn’t sell? There are so many parts to this and the other projects I’ve been involved in that you clearly don’t get.
So please DON’T buy these, or any of the other stuff I’ve helped bring to market, ie the Molnar and Scat SBO rods, or the new Molnar BBO 6.735 rod. And most of all, PLEASE don’t purchase the new SBO head once it’s out. I’m tired of hearing you bitch and criticize about shyt you had absolutely nothing to do with, or clearly don’t want to take that next step to help with, for ALL to benefit from.
This is the last time I comment on this
don’t stop now…you’re on roll. if you take credit for designing anything, then you can take constructive criticism. when you designed those pistons, why didn’t you ask on here or privately ask what guys would like in a piston? Remember, you asked me offline what I would like to see in a new edelbrock head back in 2017? I gave a suggestion, sent you pics and that suggestion was used by you.
then you came here and lied about it..saying nobody knew about the new head..well, I did, because you told me about it and as asked for my input and asked me to keep quiet about it…you’re welcome
oh ya, you have no problem attacking other builders..you do it all the time….that’s a fact.
as far as buying parts through you..I’ve spent at least $2,000 previously and was recently 100% committed to two crankshafts.
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; November 1st, 2023 at 07:54 AM.
Here’s the dyno pull on that 435 HP engine someone linked to earlier .
look at the low end TQ and where it finally starts to come in? Does anyone think this would work ok with a 2500 converter and 3:08’s? or go look at Marks mule motor dyno pull compared his mule with the new heads..exactly the same..soft on low end TQ. Yet his Mule motor with iron #5 heads makes great low end TQ..over 400ft pounds in the low 3k range
The cost was $650 for pistons, rings, pins and locks plus shipping when Dave and I bought them. Honestly I should have thrown my 330 crank in the bush. For all the Mallory needed to balance it, I should have bought the 4" stroker crank. The 9 to 1 SB iron head, small roller cam 350 stroker, 422ci Mark did made 400+ HP and 500+ ft/lbs. The owner was very happy even with the 2.73 gears and 2500 stall. I bet 87 octane would be no issue as well. Yes, that build is on here. Why bother with a 350 at all? I'm at 9.5 to 1 with these horrible pistons and a cam small enough to protect GM's fragile automatic transmissions. Hmm almost like the 10cc works with factory early SB heads, hmm. Holley Terminator X Max here I come!
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; November 1st, 2023 at 10:10 AM.
And yet some will throw money after a 307, I'd consider a 358 to be the smallest that I'd use, and they , obviously, do well when done correctly !
You can't give away a good Olds 350 sometimes and those that use 307's "because that is what they have", are either missing the point, lazy, or thinking that they'll find a "silver bullet" !!
I learned a lot about displacement while in high school when the 327's wanted to race my low compression 350, all 3 lost their race. Even the higher compression engines, and 2 4-speed cars. Of course , other variables are involved too , but this was the outcome in each instance.
Just had this discussion on a truck board because of someone thinking a destroked sbc 400 would be the bee's knees instead of the full 407 cu in, and then the small displacement peanut gallery chimed-in for his support claiming my "theory" didn't hold water !
Cubic inches - get all you can unless gas mileage is the main concern.
Mark , you've done a lot and there are now great pistons, rods, and crankshafts available, and I hope they're taken advantage of by many !!!
October 25th, 2023 | 04:38 PM
