1BOSS83

Recently built motor (less than 40 miles on it) having hot starter issues. Power master wouldn't fit with headers so the solution is new starter with solenoid relocation to firewall (ford starter switch). I've got some issues that need to be ironed out with the builder so know the motor is going back but while I have you here..

-When the motor is hot it takes 100ft/lbs on a torque wrench to spin the motor. I didn't get a number when cold but was told it "spins just fine"
-Timing is 44* total advance
-15 in vacuum at idle (no smoke, no bog, no stumble, no heating issues)
- Coolant leak on the back of the intake manifold has me the most concerned. When the car was in the air was getting some coolant drip off the oil filter and it's behind CYL 8. The guys at my shop informed me that an inferior bead may have been used and because of the turkey tray style gasket the intake has to come off.


-Apologies for the hasty details, I'm at work and won't pick up the H/O until tomorrow but I want to get some dialogue going so I can narrow down my issues and avoid any new ones while I troubleshoot.

thanks CO,

oldcutlass

You can use a light and a mirror to check the manifold, heater lines, freeze plugs. Your timing is probably to far advanced for the starting issue if your at 44 total with vacuum advance disconnected. You may want to drop it back to around 36ish.

1BOSS83

The starting issue is when it's at full operating temperature. I'm not sure if the tightness in turning the motor will settle overtime as the new cyl bores wear in and everything seats/settles. I'll have the timing pulled back when the intake manifold is looked into. I'm getting a surge at mid/mid-high cruise RPMS and at near WOT there is a large and noticeable draw of air (louder than any secondaries I've ever heard) and I'm thinking the draw of air+surge+leak = manifold vacuum leak.

Octania

"Recently built motor (less than 40 miles on it)"

what kind of rebuild?

My 403 came to me with forged pistons set at 0.0015-0.0020 wall clearance. And evidence of overheating. And scuffed skirts and walls.

The internet experts said forged pistons prefer 0.004-0.005" clearance.

the machine shop said, oh no, two thou is PLENTY, don't ask us to hone to 4-5 thou, it will be NOISY....

I said do it anyhow.

They did.

It runs fine and there is no objectionable noise, see the you tube video of the startup March 2015 after sitting since October 2014.

PS it no longer overheats.

1BOSS83

Crank cut .010, block .030, speed pro -5.8cc dish , sealed power rings http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SLP-E-297K30. Piston to wall clearance- I'd have to ask but I'd imagine it was manufac recommendation.



Car runs 180-200* max.

Fun71

That may be your problem. I remember reading a bunch of posts over the years that the Speed Pro spec for forged pistons was too tight.

1BOSS83

I'm gonna disagree with you just based on Speed Pro as a whole. If they were pumping out pistons with questionable recommendations there would be more uproar. That said; starting issue is 100% gone after the install of a ford starter switch (returned the powermaster starter). Brought the total timing down to 38* and it honestly felt like some ummph was taken out of the power.

Some observations
1- The intake manifold gasket is actually bulging from the front of the block, this needs to be corrected, still pulling 15in of vacuum.
2- the coolant leak is actually the heater control valve (HUGE relief)
3- The oil looks good, no smell of gas at all on the dip stick.
4- My problem feels like a transmission one to me. The trans was 100% when I went in for the motor swap.
4a- It's choosy about when to down shift
4b- The mid/midhigh rpm cruise surge intensifies as the car comes to temperature (to define- on a scale of 1 to 10, the surge cold is a 3 and warm is a 4.5)
4c- when you hammer it, the car wants to leave 1st as soon as possible, with the ligthening rods engaged- the car will hold 1st fine and bark 2nd and performs the way I want it to.

TV cable is my thought but I'll follow up the thread after a trip to the trans shop.

coppercutlass

What I wanna know is how people have hot start issues with headers. I have a stock starter with full tubes and not once have had a hot start issue. My starter sits less than a inch away from the tubes.

oldcutlass

Try driving it without the vacuum advance connected and see if the surge goes away. I think your right, double check your detent cable adjustment for your downshift issue.

Fun71

So you disagree with me that I have read a lot of posts over the years that experienced engine builders have recommend looser tolerances than Speed Pro states? I counter that I have indeed read many of these posts over the years. I cannot say if they are accurate or not, but I have certainly read them.

1BOSS83

Surge is present with or without vacuum advance connected. A lean a/f mixture was also fingered as a potential issue; I don't see any evidence of that on the plugs (caramel brown color) and hard throttle acceleration is just a joy. Moreover, the mid/mid-high rpm cruise isn't missing, it feels like the transmission isn't sure what to do. Prior to the swap the car would smoothly climb through the gears and arrive in OD with ease, now I have to crank it up to up shift. Moreover, the transmission will complete the series of gear changes based on the initial acceleration.

Example- If you launch and hit 2nd hard the trans will want RPMS to move to 3rd/4th even if you're out of the peddle. Suggests a weak spring?

1BOSS83

No sir. I don't dispute the information you've received. My experience in working with builders and listening to advice is that this process is more of an individual experience based on a near infinite number of factors rather than black/white right/wrong. When I say I disagree, I meant with the prognosis that the speed pros in my application are causing heating issues.

1BOSS83

Honestly, I'm not sure. With the solenoid relocated to the inner fender well I have not had a problem since.

olds 307 and 403

The only hot start issue I ever had was running a puny 307 starter on a 403. 100 ft/lbs is a lot and we should have warned you the .002" spec Speedpro gives is half what they need. Forged pistons need more clearance because of more expansion. Design plays a factor as does 4032 vs 2618 alloy but they still can't run as tight as a Hyper or Cast.

olds 307 and 403

Complete beads around BOTH sides of the water ports and very generous/tall beads on both end rails is needed. I go one step further and use Permatex Aviation sealant around the other ports which is the same as Edelbrock Gaskasinch.

1BOSS83

In an earlier thread (feb 15') I was advised to have the piston set at least .004-.005. I spoke with the builder at the time. I'm interested to see what ft/lbs are needed after 750-1,000 miles when things have seated. Again, no heat issue at all at present.

Fun71

This is what I was referring to above.

You're contradicting yourself in these posts:
So again, your issue could be from too little piston-to-wall clearance. You need to verify with the builder what he did so you can determine if this is the issue or not.

1BOSS83

Ken, you're absolutely right. Fact is I asked the builder to set them .005 and never verified with a build sheet or follow up. Thanks for pointing it out and the help.


-Got home tonight and took the lady for a ride/do some diagnostics. The surge was REALLY prevalent tonight; to the point where April noticed herself. When we got back I felt like the motor just wasn't happy so I put a vacuum on it and it was pulling 9-10 (was 14-15 few days ago) I put on the drop light and the intake seal in bulging out of the front of the motor.

Now I'm starting to think:
-Lean mixture from vacuum leak around seal would cause a surge.
-Large draw of air I'm hearing at WOT shift point could very well be suction from that leak if it is substantial enough.
-Still think the TV cable is out of whack though because the shifting is very awkward.Could a misaligned shifter cable cause awkward shift points? When I use the lightening rods as a means to experiment I have to give the 1st->2nd shifter a good tug back to get her in 1st.

-The real question is who do I go to first- the builder or the trans shop? Would a manifold leak create a shifting issue? I know it will with a transmission that has a modulator but Its my understanding the 200-4r does NOT have a modulator.

Thanks

coppercutlass

I don't think the end rail seal bulging Or leaking will make a vaccum leak . As you can run open breathers that will not creat a vaccum leak . A quick way to find a vaccum leak is to spritz a little break cleaner or water and see if the idle rpm changes.

1BOSS83

Just want to make sure I understand- If the intake manifold:block seal is failing a vacuum leak will not be created?

-With the front seal bulging as it is at 50 miles of use I'm wondering what is going on where the manifold meets the head.

coppercutlass

What's going on is is either blow by gasses presurzing the crankcase. You need a way to properly recirculate those gasses. A pcv system is cheap and simple. that could be your issue. If that was the case then you have a lot of blow by. Sorry for the short response I'm on my phone.

1BOSS83

The drivers side valve cover has an outlet with vacuum hose running to the back of the carb.

1BOSS83

Ran the car to temp, few adjustments of a/f mix brought me to 12 in of vacuum, sprayed the top of the intake manifold (water) and idle grew sluggish. Time to head back to the builder.

1BOSS83

Ran the car to temperature yesterday to re-check vacuum, pull plugs.
Plug from cyl 8

Plug from cyl 3 was also pulled and looked the same (no odor of gas on the plugs). When the car had run for about 4 minutes (temp was showing 135-140*) I pulled the vacuum advance and it stalled. The motor came to me with no vacuum advanced hooked up and 44* total timing, now it is 38* total.

Some things I found odd when I was tinkering that I cannot figure out.
1- Why did the motor stall when I pulled the VA? If the timing is that dependent on VA at idle should I set the initial timing with the VA attached?
2-I let the car idle to full temp (about 10 minutes) and shut it down. After a 3 second pause I hit the key again and it spun (quick, no lag) but didn't turn over until I gave it a little gas.

olds 307 and 403

Unplugging the vacuum advance will drop the idle speed and timing IF it is off manifold vacuum. Get the intake fixed, how many miles on the motor?

Fun71

1 - The engine likely stalled because the timing suddenly decreased, which makes it sound as if the vacuum advance was connected to a port with manifold vacuum. Do not set the initial timing with the vacuum advance connected - that will make what you saw even worse.



Just FYI for future troubleshooting discussions, "spin" and "turn over" are the same thing. A description of the event could be your engine "spun", "turned over", or "cranked" but didn't "fire" or "start".

1BOSS83

The vacuum advance is pulling from manifold vacuum. Motor has 100 miles on it.

olds 307 and 403

Was the motor properly broke in? The rings may not be seated in those cylinders. The idle will drop and much less timing, whatever your vacuum can is putting out will no doubt cause harder starts. Always set timing with the vacuum advance unplugged and the line plugged. Your base timing should be around 20 on most HEI distributors.

1BOSS83

Motor was broken in by the speed shop who did the install. Took the car to the builder yesterday and they checked for vacuum leaks and were unable to find anything conclusive. I swapped the plugs from delco r46s to r43s, set initial timing at 12*, A/F adjustments have me at 13inHG. Car is going to the transmission shop today for off shifting diagnosis. Will keep updating.

olds 307 and 403

What distributor is in it? As long as you have 36-38 in by 2500 to 3000 rpm, your initial will fall wherever the distributor is set up for in mechanical advance. A lot of factory distributors were set up with 16 degrees mechanical advance that came in well over 3000 rpm. You motor will probably like more initial timing like most Olds V8's.

Convertcrazed

Hey Adam,
Did you ever confirm with your machinist about what they cut your piston clearances? Just asking....cause I told mine about the 4-5 thous and said he would cut them at 35 and I just measured tonight and he cut at 25 Why doesn't SP/FM change there recommended clearance?????) I'm not sure I want to argue with my machinist about it anymore....so waiting to find out what Dick Miller does there blocks at??? Then I'll probably take it to another machinist to have it redone?
Also....did I read somewhere in your posts, that you don't like the comp xe268?
I'm hoping to assemble my motor soon.....but only want to do it once


Eric M

olds 307 and 403

He should just have to hone the cylinders the extra .001, if you asked for it, you should get it.

1BOSS83

Proform distributor. Motor is happy at 36-38* total timing, new plugs (r46 to an r43), vacuum is steady 13in, no hard start hot or cold, runs 180*-200* all day. Picking up tomorrow- needed trans mount and final TV cable adjustment.

1BOSS83

Pistons are set at .005 according to the builder. I have no issues with the cam thus far. Idle is nice, 13" vacuum at idle, mid-range power is really impressive and throttle response/low end torque is great. Plenty of things to consider with the cam but with a 9.4: motor with 3.73 rear, 2400 stall it looked like a good option when I bought it. Not sure where you are at in your build but there are plenty of great resources on CO in regards to cam selection/custom piece.

Good luck

1BOSS83

Picked up the car from the trans shop and shifting issue has been corrected. Still surge in mid rpm cruise. Going to check float level and then off to the jets. I read that Quick Fuel's use holly secondary jets but I can't verify if I can use holly primary jets. Will keep posted, thanks for all the help.