oldschool85

Would anyone who knows their specific dyno numbers care to share them and their engine builds with us so those without dyno time can accurately gauge what we have?

Please include:
1/4 times:
overbore:
cam specs - lift and duration @ .050"
intake type:
carb cfm:
header type:
compression ratio:
head type and flow numbers:
piston type:
ignition type:
Dyno sheet or numbers:

and anything else to help us get an idea of what we have...

60193W30

461
9.4:1 compression

1/4 times: 12.32 @ 108
overbore: .030
cam specs - lift and duration @ .050" JM 25-28 236/248 108
intake type: Edlebrock Air Gap
carb cfm: 750 QF
header type: Hooker SC w/ 3" Pypes
compression ratio: 9.4:1
head type and flow numbers: Bone Stock Edlebrock
piston type: Speed Pro L2323F
ignition type: MSD
Dyno sheet( please attach): Not yet
Rear: 3.42 w/ TH400 3000 Stall

oldsmobiledave

An older 455 build from a decade ago

1/4 times: 11.69 @ 115 mph in 1972 442 T400 4.10 gear
overbore: 0.040"
cam specs - Mondello JM 4-5 flat tappet
intake type: Torker with 1" Wilson spacer
carb cam: AED 850
header type: headman
compression ratio: 10.25:1
head type and flow numbers: C heads big valves
piston type: Speed Pro 2323
ignition type: HEI
Dyno sheet( please attach): 485 hp @ 5000 RPM & 522 TQ @ 4250 RPM


I added a pdf of the dyno sheet

cutlassefi

I have a bunch of them on here, just do a search.

VORTECPRO

Although this engine was a Buick its very similar to the Olds in fact they run in the same class, this information could be useful as I have dyno tests, track tests and flow tests. If nothing else you will know what to expect from a power curve like this.

cutlassefi

Next time put some temp in it, Pro.��

VORTECPRO

I run the car at 120 degrees.

cutlassefi

Of course you do.

drjr56

Wondering what made the the second build with C heads,(oldsmobiledave) car half a second,and 7mph faster than the first build (60193w30) car,that uses Eddy heads.Builds are pretty close...first car has 3000 stall,better heads,better headers.Just curious...

oldsmobiledave

Compression
Slicks and a well prepped track
4.10 gears
3550 lbs car with driver
Hundreds of passes and chassis dyno time dialing in the car.

Note that time was at 4000' elevation. At sea level it would have run at least 3/ths and 3 mph faster.

oldsmobiledave

That is flywheel hp and TQ.

That engine was pulled and replaced by my 524 stroker. Best pass now 10.89 @ 122.5 at 3850'.

oldcutlass

Have you looked at this thread?
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ld-thread.html

Bernhard

Is this a NHRA stock class engine?
I see you are running the stinger ignition, I know this unit is popular with the Buick performance guys.
What are your thoughts on the stinger compared to all the new types of ignition units on the market today?

Thanks for sharing

VORTECPRO

That dyno test posted above was for the car as it was run in IHRA C/PS, since then I switched to NHRA G/SA and F/SA with a freshened engine with more development which ran into the 10.6s with roughly 50 more HP.

Several years ago I bought the car with the stinger, it was one of the first things that went into the trash when I rebuilt the whole car for NHRA racing, I have no experience with it.
http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=63449

VORTECPRO

11.30 car in good conditions 30.0 plus baro.

matt69olds

Ok, I’ll share 😎

1969 Cutlass, A/C, cruise, power door locks, tilt steering, pdb, etc. Car weighs 3960 with its “dangerously” underweight driver🤣

71 block bored 4.155, Speed Pro pistons, stock rods with ARP rod bolts, stock N crank, balanced.

Custom Comp roller cam 248/256@ .050, .584/.612 lift on

Stock Edelbrock heads, comp springs and Harland Sharp rockers

Torker intake, 850Q-Jet (now Holley Sniper EFI, still sorting that out!)

Hooker 1 7/8 headers, torque tech 3.5 inch before the X, 3 inch after, Dynomax mufflers

GM HEI with MSD 6AL, timing locked at 34 degrees

Owner built TH400, Coan custom 10 inch converter, 3800, Gear Vender, Chevy 12 boot, Mosier 3.73 gears, spool, 35 spline axles, UMI control arms, QA1 shocks.

Best 60’ has been a 1.54, best 8th mike 7.42, best quarter mile has been 11.68 at 112. The short block is 16 years old, been on 3 partial power tours, 2 Drag Weeks (won fastest Olds in 2016) is very streetable (taught my oldest stepdaughter how to drive with it, told her no pressure, if she wrecks it she will receive nothing in my will!). Pump gas

Bernhard

Nice!

Are you running Alf's suspension?

coppercutlass

Dyno numbers are great but I'm more worried about track numbers. E/t , MPH, WEIGHT! . Its one thing to post Dyno numbers it makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside but you gotta make it all jive.

I don't have a big block but having a 3300 lbs 72 cutlass that's almost all steel makes a few guys wonder WTF lol. That's the only way I can make my low buck stuff to haul plus all the testing and suspension work to make it shake. crappy suspension can eat up tenths. On the street we don't drive the HP. I had fun driving around with a 307 3.73 gears 2500 stall and all my go fast gear from my 350 on a stock engine.

HP is one part of the equation. IMO an 11 sec BBO is pretty easy with a well thought out over all combo and that's including weight and a well working suspension and all that.

My SBO is running 12.20's and I have my eyes on an 11.99 before the new mill which will for sure go 11's . Pump gas and iron heads still ! But this isn't about SBO's lol.

Sadly most guys who claim certain HP numbers don't always translate to the times they should run. For serious racers its a great tool for baselining the engine but once in the car there is a lot of variables. HP loss through driveline, weight, experience behind the wheel etc etc.

Bernhard

What clearances are you running?
What rpm are you shifting at?

VORTECPRO

What MPH @ 12.20?

VORTECPRO

No I run TRRC suspension. I had intentions of installing the metric trans with a 4.30 gear but my oil pan problems put that on hold.

coppercutlass

The car ran 12.20's @ 107 with a 2800 stall.

I changed converter ( 3500 now ) backed the valves .020 and car went 12.20's Spinning ! with a slightly better 60 ft. and 109 mph. Once I get it to hook we will what the true gains where with the new 3500 stall .

I either had a crappy 2800 stall or backing the valves helped on the big end.

VORTECPRO

109 @ 3300=329 crankshaft HP
1320/109=12.11

coppercutlass

Yeah but dropping the 60 pay's off in the E/T dept. That's where I think I can get it there. from 12.11 to an 11.99 is not too far off to say its possible., plus that 109 mph run was done spinning pretty bad off the line . I can still back the valves out .015 to have .005 pre load. These lifters can be ran at 0 load.

I might add weather was till hot that day. I think a 45 degree night will help if it can hook. Last time out it was low 70's I wanna say. Good weather but cooler would have been better. I still got a lot of little things I can do to gain some hp.

Bernhard

Nice work on the heads and finding 50 more HP in the engine overall WOW.
Would you mind sharing ring pack, bearing clearance, cam design.
You don't have to give specific details just your thoughts in general on finding HP/TQ in a stock class build.

VORTECPRO

No problem but I'am no Buick expert. When I pulled the engine apart the previous owner built the bearings looked ok, so I measured everything and took notes. On the mains the clearance was like a funnel, the further backwards you got they got tighter, from .0025 in the front down to .0018 on number 5, very strange, so we ground the crank to get .0025 all the way down, the stroke was 3.912, rods were around .0025, never changed them. On the Buick the main oil galley that feeds the rear main runs down one side of the lifter bores, I never liked the idea of the lifters going up and down as the oil was going past the lifter to the rear main. The material around the lifter bores on a Buick are thin, we welded extra material around the lifter bores on oil galley side so we could sleave the lifter bores with a .063 oil feed hole.

The rings are a 5/64 ring back cut with spacers behind the ring, the oil ring was modified for 7 lbs of drag.

The cam was a Comp 252 @ .050 on a 108, .398/.466 same as the previous engine.

We can talk about the induction tomorrow night.

Bernhard

Thanks for the feed back!

Bernhard

With so many thin specialty rings available why did you choose to run 5/64 rings that are back cut with ring spacers/expander?
Could you explained the tech behind running this set up?
I know stock class racers are very protective with bore finish,ring packs etc.
What kind of ring life can one expect with this type of set up?
Advantages and disadvantages compared to some of the specific rings designed for racing like low tension total seal,gap and gapless 1.5mm 1mm run with spacers etc?

VORTECPRO

There was no tech behind the 5/64 ring, I had the pistons, they were rough and didn't mess with high dollar rings always knowing there was more on the table later. I will say you can turn my short block over by hand with the crank flange. What I did focus on was the induction, that's were the big power is. The question is: lets use Don Little as an example, would he spend hundreds of hours on a customers heads, and if he did how much would hundreds of hours of labor cost? I witnessed a very well know stock racer get very visibly excited over the fact his head guy found (2) cfm on his new set of heads.

Bernhard

Thanks for the reply
I read your class racer thread and found your search for low lift flow very informative. I'm always amazed at stock class ET/MPH performance.
I think this is overlooked on many street strip and bracket engines as they fail to perform with so many mail order performance parts.

VORTECPRO

Some on this forum might be surprised to find stock 455 Oldsmobile 442s can run 10s @ 3800 pounds with:

1. Stock cast iron factory heads
2. Stock cast iron factory intake
3. Q-Jet
4. Stock rods
5. .470 lift hyd flattappet cam
6. Stock 455 stroke + .012
7. Stock type piston design

George Thomson comes to mind G/SA Oldsmobile.
Danny Lattimore 10.40s in D/SA

matt69olds

The stock class racers are hardly what you could call stock cars. I recall reading an article on what those stock class racers got thru to build their cars. Things like finding the stock rocker arms with the highest factory rocker ratio, lightest/longest factory connections rod, offset grinding the factory crank to the maximum allowed stroke, lightest blocks, smallest cooling system that will do the job, minimal charging and electrical systems, lightest factory wheels, oiled wheel bearings instead of greased, no cotter pins in the suspension system, lightest tires, rotors and brake drums cut to the minimum thickness allowed, all of these things either to reduce weight/ rolling resistance, or both. I’m not saying they all go to these extremes, but i bet a lot do, and probably hundreds of other little tricks

Bernhard

Andrew Wiebe 72 442 ran 10's as well.

I'm a Oldsmobile guy through and through but I do think the 455 Buick has a design edge on the Oldsmobile 455 as cast from the factory.
The stage 1 were always a little faster and the stage 2 head was ahead of there time.
The Buick can run with the best of them

Bernhard

True
But a lot of their performance is do to refinement

VORTECPRO

In my opinion the only advantage the Buick has is its bore size, and that it in my opinion. I've ported both Olds and Buick production heads, there's not much difference. Not trying to argue but do you really think a production based Buick will run with a production based LS6? The reason I run the low HP Buick combination is the stage 1 70 engine is a time bomb.

Bernhard

What I should have said is that for a luxury division the Buick engineers did well extracting HP/TQ out of a non performance engine.
The stage two Buick cars ran impressive ET/MPH in the early 70's with the addition of the stage two package. The purpose built engines like the LS6, 426 Hemi, and big block Fords, are true performance engines that have a design advantage.
The Oldsmobile engineers also did well making their non performance engine produce HP/TQ.

VORTECPRO

Well stated!

matt69olds

Absolutely. No way in hell someone could copy every trick a competitive class racer has learned and apply it to another car and run the same numbers. Those guys have hundreds of runs, detailed log books, and lots of trial and error learning what works and what doesn’t. I think it’s impressive what those cars can run “handicapped” with the rules and restrictions. They run better than probably 90% of the modified cars you see at the weekend races. And it’s not just the engine and trans, lots of little suspension and chassis tricks that most people probably wouldn’t notice.

VORTECPRO

Its not rocket science.