Proposed text for "numbers matching"
#1
Proposed text for "numbers matching"
"Matching numbers" or "numbers matching" is the most mis-used term in the collector car hobby (with the possible exceptions of "classic" or "rare"). Starting in 1968, the Feds required a VIN-derivative to be stamped on the engine block and transmission. For Oldsmobile this VIN-derivative was nine characters long and comprised of the first character and last eight characters of the car's VIN. If these numbers match each other and the VIN, then you can be assured that the car has the original engine and trans and this is "numbers matching" (or that the block and trans have been restamped, which is a different problem). Any Olds built prior to the 1968 model year predates these "VIN-derivatives", so there really aren't any numbers to match.
Having said that, there are other, less definitive things like casting numbers and date codes. A certain year and configuration automobile should have specific parts, so these casting numbers must be correct for that factory build configuration. In addition, major items (block, heads, manifolds) will have cast-in date codes, which should predate the build date of the car by one to three months. As I said, these are not definitive since Olds built thousands of cars in that one to three month period. Having a date code or casting code that is clearly incorrect is proof that the part is not original, but just because it is in the correct range doesn't prove it's original. Finally, on the pre-1968 cars Olds stamped an engine unit number on the front of one of the heads. This number does not match the VIN, but certain characters in the number can provide additional (but again non-definitive) proof of originality. For example, the 65-67 442s carried engine numbers that started with the letter "V". A 442 of that vintage without one of these engine numbers clearly doesn't have the original engine. Later Olds engines also carried a paper code tag on the oil fill tube, but these are available as reproductions and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Whenever I see a pre-68 Olds that is advertised as "numbers matching", I immediately ask the seller to please point out the numbers that "match". Of course, there aren't any.
Having said that, there are other, less definitive things like casting numbers and date codes. A certain year and configuration automobile should have specific parts, so these casting numbers must be correct for that factory build configuration. In addition, major items (block, heads, manifolds) will have cast-in date codes, which should predate the build date of the car by one to three months. As I said, these are not definitive since Olds built thousands of cars in that one to three month period. Having a date code or casting code that is clearly incorrect is proof that the part is not original, but just because it is in the correct range doesn't prove it's original. Finally, on the pre-1968 cars Olds stamped an engine unit number on the front of one of the heads. This number does not match the VIN, but certain characters in the number can provide additional (but again non-definitive) proof of originality. For example, the 65-67 442s carried engine numbers that started with the letter "V". A 442 of that vintage without one of these engine numbers clearly doesn't have the original engine. Later Olds engines also carried a paper code tag on the oil fill tube, but these are available as reproductions and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Whenever I see a pre-68 Olds that is advertised as "numbers matching", I immediately ask the seller to please point out the numbers that "match". Of course, there aren't any.
#4
"Matching numbers" or "numbers matching" is the most mis-used term in the collector car hobby (with the possible exceptions of "classic" or "rare"). Starting in 1968, the Feds required a VIN-derivative to be stamped on the engine block and transmission. For Oldsmobile this VIN-derivative was nine characters long and comprised of the first character and last eight characters of the car's VIN. If these numbers match each other and the VIN, then you can be assured that the car has the original engine and trans and this is "numbers matching" (or that the block and trans have been restamped, which is a different problem). Any Olds built prior to the 1968 model year predates these "VIN-derivatives", so there really aren't any numbers to match.
Having said that, there are other, less definitive things like casting numbers and date codes. A certain year and configuration automobile should have specific parts, so these casting numbers must be correct for that factory build configuration. In addition, major items (block, heads, manifolds) will have cast-in date codes, which should predate the build date of the car by one to three months. As I said, these are not definitive since Olds built thousands of cars in that one to three month period. Having a date code or casting code that is clearly incorrect is proof that the part is not original, but just because it is in the correct range doesn't prove it's original. Finally, on the pre-1968 cars Olds stamped an engine unit number on the front of one of the heads. This number does not match the VIN, but certain characters in the number can provide additional (but again non-definitive) proof of originality. For example, the 65-67 442s carried engine numbers that started with the letter "V". A 442 of that vintage without one of these engine numbers clearly doesn't have the original engine. Later Olds engines also carried a paper code tag on the oil fill tube, but these are available as reproductions and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Whenever I see a pre-68 Olds that is advertised as "numbers matching", I immediately ask the seller to please point out the numbers that "match". Of course, there aren't any.
Having said that, there are other, less definitive things like casting numbers and date codes. A certain year and configuration automobile should have specific parts, so these casting numbers must be correct for that factory build configuration. In addition, major items (block, heads, manifolds) will have cast-in date codes, which should predate the build date of the car by one to three months. As I said, these are not definitive since Olds built thousands of cars in that one to three month period. Having a date code or casting code that is clearly incorrect is proof that the part is not original, but just because it is in the correct range doesn't prove it's original. Finally, on the pre-1968 cars Olds stamped an engine unit number on the front of one of the heads. This number does not match the VIN, but certain characters in the number can provide additional (but again non-definitive) proof of originality. For example, the 65-67 442s carried engine numbers that started with the letter "V". A 442 of that vintage without one of these engine numbers clearly doesn't have the original engine. Later Olds engines also carried a paper code tag on the oil fill tube, but these are available as reproductions and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Whenever I see a pre-68 Olds that is advertised as "numbers matching", I immediately ask the seller to please point out the numbers that "match". Of course, there aren't any.
As '67 post says, pre-68s can have numbers matching with the POP. And the build sheet.
I think even '68s and newer cars being claimed to be "numbers matching" are not necessarily referring to the VIN match on the engine and trans.
What it boils down to with me is that any reference to "numbers matching" has to include what "numbers match what" to mean anything.
#5
All the more reason to build it like you want to big wheels and all
95% of the "matching numbers" and original cars are just recreations of what the owner / builder think it was. To me the only cars worth big money should be real unrestored survivor cars. It looks nice to build up the primer thick and block them out arrow strait but thats no where near what it left the showroom like. Just do what you want with a car and don't worry about it. Its better than being reincarnated as a Honda.
95% of the "matching numbers" and original cars are just recreations of what the owner / builder think it was. To me the only cars worth big money should be real unrestored survivor cars. It looks nice to build up the primer thick and block them out arrow strait but thats no where near what it left the showroom like. Just do what you want with a car and don't worry about it. Its better than being reincarnated as a Honda.
#8
First, I'd like to put the term "original" right up there with "numbers matching" for miss-use and abuse. But discussion of "original" should be another thread. I don't believe *either* term should be used by itself without further explanation, because by themselves, the terms are meaningless.
As '67 post says, pre-68s can have numbers matching with the POP. And the build sheet.
I think even '68s and newer cars being claimed to be "numbers matching" are not necessarily referring to the VIN match on the engine and trans.
What it boils down to with me is that any reference to "numbers matching" has to include what "numbers match what" to mean anything.
As '67 post says, pre-68s can have numbers matching with the POP. And the build sheet.
I think even '68s and newer cars being claimed to be "numbers matching" are not necessarily referring to the VIN match on the engine and trans.
What it boils down to with me is that any reference to "numbers matching" has to include what "numbers match what" to mean anything.
One question. What year was the P-O-P first used with engine and trans numbers, and when did it transition to the plastic version with only the VIN and dealer info? I've found references back to 1962. Was it earlier?
#9
I don't know what the first year was, but '68 was the last year. '69s got the plastic cards.
#10
95% of the "matching numbers" and original cars are just recreations of what the owner / builder think it was. To me the only cars worth big money should be real unrestored survivor cars. It looks nice to build up the primer thick and block them out arrow strait but thats no where near what it left the showroom like. Just do what you want with a car and don't worry about it. Its better than being reincarnated as a Honda.
So let me add the word "preservation" to the words and phrases we should be using. And the word "correct" where far too often "original" is used. But again, this should be another thread.
Sure you can do whatever you want with your car. And there is no need to try to "preserve" every car, nor make every car "correct". But there is obviously a huge contingency out there that *is* interested in exactly how they came from the factory. And some of us want establish and "preserve" this information! As my good friend Ron Forsee would say, we need to be on guard for "truth decay".....
#11
"...Our main weapon is fear. Fear and surprise, our two main weapons..."
But did P-O-Ps after 1967 have any kind of engine unit number? Would it have been the one on the oil fill tube? Were the plastic P-O-Ps all of the same layout every year, or did they change?
I don't know what the first year was, but '68 was the last year. '69s got the plastic cards.
#12
I was exagerating a little but you know what I was getting at. Many many parts on muscle cars were thrown out years ago and many bodies were rusted or crashed beyond repair. The whole idea of scouging for years to get just the right date in an intake, set of wheels, or exhaust manifold just does not do it for me. As most know here my taste goes through a broad range from restored original to very custom but like you said they are only original once.
#13
I was exagerating a little but you know what I was getting at. Many many parts on muscle cars were thrown out years ago and many bodies were rusted or crashed beyond repair. The whole idea of scouging for years to get just the right date in an intake, set of wheels, or exhaust manifold just does not do it for me. As most know here my taste goes through a broad range from restored original to very custom but like you said they are only original once.
#14
Engine numbers aren't on '69+ POPs. I'll look into what's on them and let you know. Product Information Manuals (aka "assembly manuals") have a page on POPs.
#15
There were a few cars in the Barrett-Jackson auction that should of had VIN/engine number matching that said "all numbers on car match, engine is date code correct", what a can of worms.
#16
The whole reason for the VIN derivative on the block and trans case was federal requirements in an attempt to curtail auto theft and chop shops. In later years the VIN was required to be etched on glass and major components like body panels.
#17
Did you hear one of the 'Great Barrett-Jackson' heads talk about the re-bodied Yenko Nova????
His position: It's still a real Yenko. Why?????
If you have George Washington's axe that felled the cherry tree and the handle was gone and you replaced it, it was still the same hatchet.
His position: It's still a real Yenko. Why?????
If you have George Washington's axe that felled the cherry tree and the handle was gone and you replaced it, it was still the same hatchet.
#18
Here's how I see it:
If bad guys can counterfeit a $20 bill, or, a $100 bill manufactured with seceret techniques, paper and ink. Then.... bad guys can counterfeit data plates, build sheets, POP's, mill and re-stamp engines etc.
My point is... be happy with your non-matching car and buy another one with the money you save.
Disclaimer. - If I was lucky enough to have a high dollar matching # car I would be arguing the other side.
If bad guys can counterfeit a $20 bill, or, a $100 bill manufactured with seceret techniques, paper and ink. Then.... bad guys can counterfeit data plates, build sheets, POP's, mill and re-stamp engines etc.
My point is... be happy with your non-matching car and buy another one with the money you save.
Disclaimer. - If I was lucky enough to have a high dollar matching # car I would be arguing the other side.
#19
1. Almost all of this talk is coming from those that don't have them, and most of the talk comes from those that have a vested interest in the numbers *not* matching. By that I mean that they are or have or plan to sell a car that does not have "matching numbers".
2. And this is the biggest smoking gun: If it is *not* so darned important, then why is there such an interest and effort to have/make/fake "matching numbers"???? A lot of trouble to go to if it doesn't really matter!
Here's a snapshot of how bad it is: A '66 442 convertible was recently offered on E-bay (ended a no-sale). It was an original 4-speed 442. A profiteer (who parades around as an enthusiast) decided that he didn't like that it had been repainted red, though is was originally green. His greed prompted him to put a reproduction body tag on the car changing the color to red to "match". Being a real 4-speed 442 wasn't good enough for him. So he destroyed the documentation (the original body tag) to feed his shameless greed. And the car *was* being advertised as an original red car.
#20
Ah, there is the very honest truth to the matter. Not even being a high dollar car, just "numbers matching". I hear a *lot* of talk out there about how worthless and unimportant it is. But:
1. Almost all of this talk is coming from those that don't have them, and most of the talk comes from those that have a vested interest in the numbers *not* matching. By that I mean that they are or have or plan to sell a car that does not have "matching numbers".
2. And this is the biggest smoking gun: If it is *not* so darned important, then why is there such an interest and effort to have/make/fake "matching numbers"???? A lot of trouble to go to if it doesn't really matter!
Here's a snapshot of how bad it is: A '66 442 convertible was recently offered on E-bay (ended a no-sale). It was an original 4-speed 442. A profiteer (who parades around as an enthusiast) decided that he didn't like that it had been repainted red, though is was originally green. His greed prompted him to put a reproduction body tag on the car changing the color to red to "match". Being a real 4-speed 442 wasn't good enough for him. So he destroyed the documentation (the original body tag) to feed his shameless greed. And the car *was* being advertised as an original red car.
1. Almost all of this talk is coming from those that don't have them, and most of the talk comes from those that have a vested interest in the numbers *not* matching. By that I mean that they are or have or plan to sell a car that does not have "matching numbers".
2. And this is the biggest smoking gun: If it is *not* so darned important, then why is there such an interest and effort to have/make/fake "matching numbers"???? A lot of trouble to go to if it doesn't really matter!
Here's a snapshot of how bad it is: A '66 442 convertible was recently offered on E-bay (ended a no-sale). It was an original 4-speed 442. A profiteer (who parades around as an enthusiast) decided that he didn't like that it had been repainted red, though is was originally green. His greed prompted him to put a reproduction body tag on the car changing the color to red to "match". Being a real 4-speed 442 wasn't good enough for him. So he destroyed the documentation (the original body tag) to feed his shameless greed. And the car *was* being advertised as an original red car.
Seriously, though, if a tag can be changed to match the current color of a car, who is to say it can;t be changes to "make" a car whatever you want it to be (a 442, not a Cutlass; a 4 speed, not a Jetaway; etc etc). its a pity what use some people will use expert knowledge of trim tag codes to.
BEFORE (Forest Mist with parchment interior, remote mirror and power driver's seat):
AFTER (Target Red with black interior, codes for remote mirror and power driver' seat deleted):
Last edited by aliensatemybuick; January 21st, 2009 at 09:40 AM.
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