80 Rocket

What are you talking about? I was at the OCA Nationals this year. Out of 500 some cars, 7 had aluminum heads. 4 were edelbrocks, 1 rocket racing, 1 batten, and 1 pro comp.

76olds

I get what your saying WR1970, If I had the time and know how I would. I have 3 CNC3 axis machines currently. Mainly machining stamping dies. I have 2 old bridgeports sitting collecting dust and taking up floor space which I should have gotten rid of while scrap prices were so high. I could set my #8's up on the bridgeport and have a go at them if I had the time.
I'm not into getting dirty with cast LOL.
I could purchase a decent mill turn CNC pump out a number of pistons then utilize the machine for other work.
The capabilities are their however that isn't my passion.
When the time comes and I get fed up with the power my 76 has I will make the decision on what to do.
Luckily my 76 has kept me busy doing everything else but the engine to date.
I see your point and thank-you for your advice.

76olds

The last show I attended ther were about 200 cars, my wife and I counted 7 oldsmobiles our 76 being one of them. One had an LS engine, one had aluminium heads not sure what brand, the others didn't have the hood up so I'm guessing stock form.
Many other makes I'd say between the years 73-87 many that open up their hoods had either LS engine or aluminum heads. Just my observation. Many of the older stuff per 60's some had work done to them most not.
Just my observation Don, I'm not a bullshitter just saying what I seen .

wr1970

Dave the freak has me thinking about a port job on a set of iron heads that are extra in my shop. I have new valves to fit them. They are GA but i have a set of c heads ported ready to run that have no engine to use them on yet. So i think 76olds we have reached common ground. We like our oldsmobiles! Good luck with your choices just use sound thinking. Use good info discuss your options as you prepare and have a plan and a goal. Have a very good day.

80 Rocket

I don't think you get it right now. If you want me to detune it, that is fine. Less cam and less compression can all be done at no additional expense.

However, building any engine will require transmission work. If you expect to have a fresh engine built, and mate it to your stock transmission with 130,000 miles on it, you need a bigger budget. If you can't afford it, you can't afford it. It's not a big deal, it is what it is.

You can keep your stock converter and 2.73 gears. It will make it feel more streetable, and there will be plenty of torque to get it moving from a stop light. You can choke it with stock manifolds as well.

I really don't understand where you are coming from or what you are trying to say. You are saying things like "I would just get a bridgeport to do porting" or "you don't need a flow bench or data" or "we need more power from our smog engines" and other stuff that really makes me question your understanding of basic principles.

If you want to improve your J headed "smog" engine, all you do is get the compression ratio up higher and cam it accordingly. Unfortunately, that requires different pistons because you cannot mill enough from the heads to get to a usable compression ratio. And, if you are replacing the cam, you need new springs.......old factory valve springs will not work with newer cams. And now, since you are putting pistons in, you might as well put new bearings in it, grind the crank, and do the proper block work.

You see what happens here? The "might as wells" add up. If I am going to build an engine for someone, I am not looking to make compromises because my name and my word means something to me.

Torque does not rule the street. If you want more torque, simply leave your car in first gear. First gear WILL multiply your torque, but it WILL NOT multiply your horsepower.

76olds

I'm handy with a die grinder when I hit the press and begin bluing in forms to hit the fixture properly.
Cast iron head grinding is a tedious dirty job, Dave has made it very easy for those who want to attempt this at home.
If you have a go at your heads I hope it works out well for you.

76olds

Don ,

I'll make it a simple?
Why would you not build anything under 450HP?

80 Rocket

I believe I said I could......less cam and compression= less power. But not less cost. The only way to cut costs would be to make compromises. I've explained that a few times now.

If you want to wake up your #8 headed 350, get rid of the #8 heads or ditch the pistons and put flat tops in it. You need compression, you have none at the moment (might be almost 8:1). But, as I have already explained, the "might as wells" keep adding up. You can't just throw flat tops in it. You will be rebalancing the crank, putting new bearings in it, etc. etc.

Putting older heads on it would probably be the most cost effective option. Find some #4s, have them milled .030, bolt them on and I bet you feel a little bit more on the butt dyno. You don't need ported heads, you would lose a lot of low end power by going with a ported head like Dave points out in his porting thread.

ALSO, I am only talking about building 455 big blocks. I could build a nice,reliable, honest 300hp 350 Olds motor for $5500.

76olds

[QUOTE=80 Rocket;889221]
I really don't understand where you are coming from or what you are trying to say. You are saying things like "I would just get a bridgeport to do porting" or "you don't need a flow bench or data" or "we need more power from our smog engines" and other stuff that really makes me question your understanding of basic principles.


Am I out ther ? Do alot of guys with smog engines not just want a nice reliable 300-400hp build without going all out on gears, converters, etc.?


My point is, why would someone need a flow bench, and dyno if the market is saying we need a cheaper built Olds engine?
Many guys are going to cheaper builders and get a shyt build.
To me that says something, guys want a rebuild but want a better price.
Who is going to capture that market of guys?
Certainly not the shop that has higher overhead costs.
But you mentioned you wouldn't build anything under 450HP . So this means you need the flow bench, dyno etc to prove out the costs associated with your builds.
It leaves the guys that just want a mild , reliable new build to look elsewhere.



Edit,,,,,,,
Ok you can build an honest 300hp 350 for $55hun . Got it .

coppercutlass

The kicker is for the same price don mentioned 5500 you could make more power. Diffrent cam , deck the block mill the heads. Totally diffrent beast with the same engine. So to speak.

I have been building a 355 which the heads that dave ported will be on. There is 2400 in the short block alone and i got it for free but after machining , cam ,parts ,gaskets , 7qt oiling system thats where im at. Then the heads although we traded labor i will value at 2500 minimum . Then you add up head bolts , intake , rockers pushrods . and im well over 5k all said and done. I might be around 400 hp. Thats with me getting that short block for free.

The diffrence between the 355 im working on and the one im running is better parts , No compromises.

My current 355 is balanced but not aling honed , no decking of the block , stock head bolts , stock rod bolts ,stock oiling system , Non ported heads just big valves , and i had a hole in the wall machine shop do the machning. Total cost on that was 4k and thats with some collateral damage from a bad cam that added 700 to the total i mentioned. The shop that machined my current engine build im working on has done special builds for companies like Dart machinery for the pri shows and what not.

For a builder doing an align hone , decking the block and using quality components is their insurance of a quality job. A shop i dont think would ever build and engine like the one im running now. There is too much room for error and its a risk. Thats why i also build my own stuff. I couldn't find a shop years ago to work with me so i gave it a go.

76olds

The smog 350 guys including myself on this forum know exactly what the deal is when it comes to what we need to achieve more power. The newbie's soon find out as well.
I think this engine era is coming on strong as younger people are buying the smog era Olds cars. Most came with 350's . Its up to the engine builders to offer something competitive IMO. If not , its not a big deal you'll see shyt builds from cheaper shops pop up in here and in time most guys will go away and drop something else in its place.
No big deal.

coppercutlass

Smog 350 you say. Easy. You can re use those 14cc pistons deck the block , mill the heads use a thinner gasket and viola. instant useable compression. But the cost to deck the block and mill the heads is half of what a new set of pistons cost.

76olds

Absolutely, for some with time on their hands with knowledge easy yes. The forum questions don't dictate that.
How many guys that just purchased these cars know how to pull heads drop in older heads, mill the intake and carry on.
Not many, its unfortunate that a mild build has to cost that much, but it is what it is.
I'm ok with it really, I've kept myself busy with adding nice new stuff to my car. some expensive stuff that was unnecessary but hey WTH lol. When the time comes that I've only the engine left to do, my decision will be based on what I feel is a good price for what I'm getting. What Ido know is that ther alot of Olds smog engines out ther currently that want attention but certainly not over the 4- 5kmark
As it stands now $5500. bucks for 300hp in a 350 isn't going to make me jump up and grab it LOL. Let me tell ya I'm not loaded with cash but I'm not cheap either.
Lets see where Oldsmobile engines end up in the years to come.

coppercutlass

BTW i mention my builds becasue IM one cheap bastard. I buy used stuff , trade parts , trade labor. But i have build a few engines on diffrent levels. The 355 i mentioned with ported heads i have been slowly building for the last 3 years now. Its taken time but i have not cut corners.

Now machine shop prices are the same pretty much. if you take a 350 chevy your only savings are really only in the parts and it might be a couple hundred less. Sure car craft magazine built a 400 hp 350 using a reman short block (parts store) , vortec heads , thin shim head gaskets and a cam to make it all work along with a used intake for only 2k but it had less than stellar parts. If you take a seasoned 350 chevy and 350 olds and built them equally your savings i think will only be in the parts dept. and like i said it might only be a 500 dollar diffrence. I think atleast.

coppercutlass

FWIW look here. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-46400/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...0008/overview/

Not so expensive after all huh ???

76olds

Not at all crated complete pan to carb 330+ HP combo's . That would rock any 79-87 Olds cutlass. Put-r-ther
You know what the 79-87 olds guys would do. The guys that transplant the Olds 350's in these year cars kick themselves after the fact LOL.

coppercutlass

My point is the savings in reality is somewhat negligible. The guys who transplanted olds 350s into these cars and werent happy where idiots because. I have so far not built and engine that has not met or exceeded my goals. Don said he could build honest 300 for 5500 i think you would have more for the same price. depending on cam and compression which is part of an equation which will not alter price but will be dependent on the overall combination and goal.

You truly fail to see what the point is.

Go ahead put a chevy in your olds but if you dont know what you are doing someone like me might come along and make you think twice when you get your doors blown off by a pile of junk olds 350 like mine ., regradless of what engine is in your car. Now im not claiming to know what im doing but i put to shame my fair share of bowties that had more than me.

76olds

I haven't ruled anything out when it comes to what engine will go into my 76. Having said that you couldn't get a 330HP Olds engine complete with roller rockers, aluminium heads for that price regardless.

For $55hun you get 300HP with a flat tappet cam and iron heads.

You would need one hell of a good sales pitch for the 79 -87 Olds guys to get them to move over to Olds Power LOL.

wr1970

Let's see would need a tranny change for one! No exhaust from a olds will bolt to the chebby! Gee that olds looks cheaper!

coppercutlass

HAHAHAHA . Sorry but like i said that 300 hp 5500 figure can be tweaked. Cam cost the same. so you pick a bigger cam bump the compression and you can make more than 300. You sir are very naive . I think for the same figure don quoted you could make closer to 400 with a few select choices.

Im not gonna beat a dead horse but thats what happens when people dont have the marbles to build what they want. They will pay a premium.


WR1970 just Put the icing on the cake. hahahaha.

Im done here. Don im sorry if i mucked the thread up with this endless banter . But we got people here who wanna jump ships with out real insight. trying to avoid that but it happens. In the long run they come around.

80 Rocket

I could build you 330hp with roller rocker and aluminum heads for that price (would make more power actually). Thing is, they are not needed and would kill low end on a 350. Dude, you are totally clueless and make so many assumptions. Stop being a keyboard jockey and start getting your hands dirty on your car and you would realize how foolish some of your assertions are.

Sorry to be blunt, but sometimes people need to hear it.

80 Rocket

No, this thread could not have gone any better. I learned a lot.

However, this thread is pretty much done unless someone wants to comment on the hp vs. tq thing.

wr1970

You just need to tell us your story Don when you are ready.I also am sorry i mucked up this thread.

76olds

What are you guys talking about? This thread isn't mucked up.
Don has clearly done his homework,he knows exactly what price point he needs to get for his minimum 450hp.
He know what age groups are currently purchasing these Olds, what amount of HP to begin them with along with what income levels these guys are currently making to afford his builds.
Call me clueless that's Ok, But I'm not the one wondering why people that don't know much more than I do think that Torque is much better than HP on the street.
So yeah, call me what you want no biggie. Get the sales pitch going and start building you'll be hitting big numbers in no time Haha.
Carry on man.

76olds

[QUOTE=coppercutlass;889275]HAHAHAHA . Sorry but like i said that 300 hp 5500 figure can be tweaked. Cam cost the same. so you pick a bigger cam bump the compression and you can make more than 300. You sir are very naive . I think for the same figure don quoted you could make closer to 400 with a few select choices.

Copper, I must have missed something or my eyes and reading skills aren't all together either when reading Don's reply.
I didn't know that 300hp for 55hun can be magically turned into 400hp for the same price depending on pickn's. Is this depending on the builders mood that day ?

coppercutlass

I will say this one more time. For that 5500 decking the block and milling the heads I assume is included. It would not cost more to mill them a little more to gain more compression and be able to run more cam and thus make more power. YOU SIR need to pick up a few books. You just proved you have no clue. Your biggest gains in power is cam and compression.

67 Cutlass Freak

Someone once told me "Horsepower is for bragging rights, it's torque that wins races". This statement was made by an idiot that just wanted to show boat, churn his tires off, and billow smoke. He was not a racer. Fact of the matter is we do need torque to leave the line. After that horse power takes over. You don't need aluminum heads to make good power. My race car has a very mild 461 CI power plant,running on pump gas that has propelled me into the tens. Don's car was very close to being in the tens with a 350. Since I started the porting thread three years ago, I have learned a lot more valuable data that would not have been possible without flow benches, dynos, or good friends like Milan and Don. I am very proud of the fact that the porting thread has had over 80,000 views. That tells me a lot of people are still interested in working on their own junk in an effort to make it better. There will always be individuals out there that can't afford to pay for good parts or quality machine work and assembly. That's simply a fact of life. Don has been working with me to try to bring the highest quality cylinder heads to the Olds world at a fair price. I am trying to learn how to maximize my time and present a head that is custom taylored to each application. I have learned bigger is not always better. The most important things to consider are:
1) Air speed/ cross sectional area
2) Port shape
3) Actual flowed CFM
In that order.
There's good reasons why no one is CNC porting cast iron heads. It's very hard on tooling. There's too many inconsistancies between cores. Very few people out there are willing to pay good money for quality work.

I think the smog era '73-'77 cars are kind of Fugly, but they will grow on you.

76olds wrote: "Not at all crated complete pan to carb 330+ HP combo's . That would rock any 79-87 Olds cutlass. Put-r-ther
You know what the 79-87 olds guys would do. The guys that transplant the Olds 350's in these year cars kick themselves after the fact LOL."

These are not Olds guys. They are kids that have been brainwashed into cookie cutter Chubby mentality. If they couldn't build their Olds to go fast, or were too cheap to pay for a quality Olds powerplant, then they deserve what they got. Oldsmobiles are not going away. The following may be getting smaller, but the real men of Olds know what it's all about. Yeah we are different. Some might even call us crazy or stupid for spending our hard earned money on a dying legacy. Some of us will pass our passion on to our children. Some others will give up and go with an LS, or whatever. It's their money, but I feel sorry for those individuals that really never fell in love with thier Olds.

The BB smog engines were the same block as earlier castings. The SB on the other hand all had windowed main webs. If I were to build another SB I would always start with an earlier casting. They are still readily available. Some day they won't be.

In this thread horsepower numbers have been tossed around like anyone can have whatever they want for a price, which is true. However 95% of the people out there have no clue what to do with a 450 HP engine. It takes some serious coin to build a drive line that can handle even that. A close friend of mine has a '65 with a 425 CI engine that's probably putting out close to 450 HP. Each time she went to the drag strip she broke something one piece after the other, trans, rear end, drive shaft. She should be good to go now, but we drive old brittle cars that are bound to break things, unless you start fresh, and build from the ground up.

I have been following this thread, between porting, football, & beers. I'm glad you guys have faith in me. Very soon we are about to present some very relevant scientific data about real world heads that I am porting. We just may be on the edge of supplying a reasonably priced head, that will be custom taylored to each application, and should make people question whether or not the Pro Comps really are a better choice than cast iron. Sorry for going off on a tangent, but I may have inhailed too many metal shavings today.
Carry on you knuckle heads, Dave - The Freak
20160102_114239.jpg

76olds

I just proved to you I had no clue now LOL, well damit was this your first clue since I came to CO haha. I also don't need to read any books thank-you. I have no need to pull my engine out and start pulling it apart. I make my money other ways. I'm not cheap and I don't mind spending money. I'm a numbers guy, it has to be realistic without BS. I've been an Olds/pontiac guy for many years. I chose the 76 to be different, you don't see many done up with cragars etc. I want my engine to be different as well, this is why when I pop the hood on my boat it gleams like the hopped up chevelle that I'm parked next to with better brakes go figure haha. Yup all that and more just without the aluminum heads Lol.
Anyway at some point someone will be getting my money for an Olds engine if it happens to cost 10k then so be it. I'll want what I want and be willing to pay the coin , would I like the option to choose from different performance crate engine levels you betcha,but olds guys can't seem to get there maybe because its all magical. Anyway In the meantime I can't see the BS about every build needs to be different when chev can put together some serious numbers in crate engines .
Thats all I've got its Jack Daniels time!!!

76olds

Lord tunderin' Geez, This thread hasen't seen much action since yesterday, Dam I wonder if you guys did actually muck up this thread. I haven't had a drink yet tonight haha.

MDchanic

Torque is an instantaneous measurement of force, while HP is a measurement of energy applied over a period of time.

That being said, high HP will apply high torque over a period of time, through a range of RPMs, which is kind of the point if you want to accelerate rapidly.

The broader that range of RPMs, the more "streetable" (or driveable) your car will be.

If you have good low-end torque, but "eh" HP, your engine will pull well for a while, then peter out.

If you have great high-end HP, but poor low-end torque, your engine will be a dog unless it's screaming.

Balancing these characteristics is what leads to an enjoyable engine, but since certain immutable physical characteristics of the engine (such as port diameter and volume, and cam timing) strongly support one type of power or the other, it is very hard to come up with a build of an older engine that satisfies all of the requirements.



Exactly. When added to valve and ignition timing, and compression, you have the whole recipe, which needs to be backed up by parts with sufficient strength to survive the reciprocating forces generated.


So, here's the question:
Once Dave has come up with some pretty good objective data on flow optimization, who wants to design and produce a variable-tract-length intake manifold and variable cam timing setup (probably derived from the system used in a modern car, such as BMW's VANOS), which will settle this question by allowing you to have both a strong low end and a screaming high end in the same engine?
No, it's not me. I'm not an engineer, not a foundry expert, not a machinist, and I have a job that they make me go to.
But, seriously, if those two items could be made to work within the space constraints of the engine, nobody would need an LS in his Olds.

Of course, if you could then turbocharge it...

- Eric

80 Rocket

Here is an example of an engine that focuses on the HP generating aspect. Milan and I have discussions about this frequently, and about the things said in this thread.

http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic120.html

This engine makes 600hp, is pump gas friendly, has a 3.08 gear in it, very modest stall converter (3200 10"), has plenty of torque down low to get it moving, and a lot of top end to make a blast down the street. I can attest to its power, and how fun it is to have it up top as well........holy sheet!

The thing to take away from the dyno sheet is the broad RPM range it has on the dyno sheet, but don't think nothing is going on below 4100RPMs. Like I said, it has a numerically low gear and a 10" 3200 stall converter.

So with that said, balancing the characteristics is exactly what it is all about to have a real street thumper if that is what you are after. It seems to me I see a lot of guys on this site fall into the trap of thinking you simply need a power range in the lower RPM range (trying to make a bunch of torque before 4500RPMs or so), and completely forget about trying to generate HP in the upper RPM range.

Widening your power band is the way to go for sure, and has been explained a few times in this thread already. Peaky engines suck for the street. They are fine for drag race applications, but that is not the intent of this thread. I think there is a lot of info to be derived from this thread for some of the guys who might be new to the hobby and want to learn.

So, don't get into the pitfall of thinking a street engine simply needs torque and that it rules the street. When you widen your powerband, you get everything you need.

Dave and I live 10 miles from each other. We are in contact with each other almost daily and we see each other once or twice a week to have discussions about cylinder heads. That list of three things is something I gave to him. I've been trying to stress the importance of port velocity with Dave. We are trying to achieve a cylinder head that also balances velocity and flow.

I will be doing some very interesting flow bench testing this Thursday and velocity/ the ability to minimize flow separation from the short turn radius will be my main focus this week. My testing will not be concluded this week as it will be ongoing for a long time, but this week will be another stepping stone in analyzing the characteristics of an Oldsmobile head.

I have some oddball theories here and if it works, I think it will be an interesting head that can make some decent power because it will have some things that other heads lack. However, it might completely fail and be a complete waste of time.

My airflow mentor told me that 33% of the time, his ideas work. He told me that the first day we met. He said if you hit 33% success rate you are doing pretty damn good. I flow test with him on the latest bench offered by Super Flow (SF-1020) every Thursday. I have a good amount of useful data right now, but want to get a few more things together before I post.


Why would you need that stuff when you have a big block? The big block I listed above would smoke any N/A LS engine.

MDchanic

No argument here.

Cubic inches are the solution to any problem except fuel economy.

BUT, wouldn't it be cool to get even wider torque / HP bands out of an older engine, whether small or large displacement?

Makes me think: Electric cooling fans, construct electric water pump that can be located a bit away from the front of the engine, reroute belts to account for lack of water pump, locate Vanos servo and concentric cam drive parts in a remodeled front engine cover, create custom-machined cam to work with VANOS drive...

I believe that system provides something like 10° of cam timing adjustment - could make for a car that's very powerful at 6,000 RPM, but still reasonably torquey and stable even at 1,000 RPM, even a 350.

I wonder whether you could create an intake out of bent steel tubes, like a set of headers, and graft it on top of a cast intake, so that a valve just under the carb switched between the long, narrower tubes and the large, shorter cast intake tracts? Actually, I guess you'd want to use multiport injection on that one.

Maybe it's something I should look into when I retire (whenever that is...).

- Eric

coppercutlass

Stock n/a ls ? Just curious . Besides the ls I personally like the coyote motor. 435 hp from a 5.0. That's got potential. If I where to build another car I would have to build a Ford just to use the coyote engine. Again technology is a great thing but it does make our engines obsolete to an extent.