torque vs. horsepower
January 23rd, 2016, 06:29 PM
#41
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If your interest is just about street driven vehicles then I have to disagree with you and say that torque rules on the street.
Most here know that gas engines make more horsepower than torque at higher rpms and vice versa at low rpms. I doubt anyone here is driving a streetable car and driving it to 4-6k around town just to make horsepower.
A well prepared BBO will make 500HP and 600TQ and never have to go over 5500rpm to do it. Can more be produced? Of course, but then the term streetable becomes a new debate.
A decent 12sec car is probably quicker than 90% of the cars on the road in any given town.
Most here know that gas engines make more horsepower than torque at higher rpms and vice versa at low rpms. I doubt anyone here is driving a streetable car and driving it to 4-6k around town just to make horsepower.
A well prepared BBO will make 500HP and 600TQ and never have to go over 5500rpm to do it. Can more be produced? Of course, but then the term streetable becomes a new debate.
A decent 12sec car is probably quicker than 90% of the cars on the road in any given town.
January 23rd, 2016, 06:31 PM
#42
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Yes but thats not a base muscle car. You are talking roush mustangs which are supercharged , hell cat challengers those are specialty muscle cars. Im using the "base" muscle cars because its more common on the street than roush mustangs or hell cats etc etc. Its gotten out of hand with technology lol.
Base muscles cars fall under mustang gt , camaro ss , and srt challanger.
more special muscle cars fall under roush , hell cat , zl1 etc etc.
Base muscles cars fall under mustang gt , camaro ss , and srt challanger.
more special muscle cars fall under roush , hell cat , zl1 etc etc.
Last edited by wr1970; January 23rd, 2016 at 07:10 PM.
January 23rd, 2016, 06:35 PM
#43
I dont think any mustangs came from the factory supercharged. All the ones tested by hot rod when comparing camaro vs challanger vs, mustang where n/a in base form. So i doubt that mustang you spoke of was stock and fall out of my comparison category since im using base muscle cars that are more common . I know better than to pick a fight with a modern muscle car with blower whine lol.
Last edited by coppercutlass; January 23rd, 2016 at 06:38 PM.
January 23rd, 2016, 06:42 PM
#44
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I dont think any mustangs came from the factory supercharged. All the ones tested by hot rod when comparing camaro vs challanger vs, mustang where n/a in base form. So i doubt that mustang you spoke of was stock and fall out of my comparison category since im using base muscle cars that are more common . I know better than to pick a fight with a modern muscle car with blower whine lol.
January 23rd, 2016, 07:55 PM
#45
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We would all like to have more at the fun pedal without a doubt, however it has to be priced within the market of people you will be serving.
So if you have something "cool" in the "works" , gauge interest with price points and be ready to deliver a good product in a decent time frame.
That would be my business plan rather than lighting fuses, putting something out in the market or forum without prices.
So if you have something "cool" in the "works" , gauge interest with price points and be ready to deliver a good product in a decent time frame.
That would be my business plan rather than lighting fuses, putting something out in the market or forum without prices.
My problem is thinking in terms of peak HP, or a very generous curve in the upper RPM range (4500+). But catering to the street guy is a different ball game. You see, I'd be the dumb *** on the street with a 5500 stall converter and a lot of gear but struggles to go 50mph down the highway.......that's stupid.
I think that a very well put together big block olds could make 460hp/540tq very easily and at a minimal cost. However, when I say minimal cost, I do not mean cutting corners. I mean an engine with aftermarket rods, fully machined block, good pistons, and something with flow numbers and dyno numbers to back it up. Let's face it, this hobby is not cheap......but everything I see out there is pretty dang expensive when you price it out at the end of the day (I would never pay $10k+ for something that only makes 500hp.....never).
Sorry I am a bit secretive on what I am working on, but it is nothing you know about, nor for anyone else to know. If it works, I'll let you, and everyone else know. If it fails, everyone will eventually know about it because it will make for an informative thread.
January 23rd, 2016, 08:16 PM
#46
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Don,
Why not take a poll on who would be interested in what ?
Such as ,
1) Who is happy with the current performance level of their Olds
2) Who would be interested with 300hp , 350hp , 400hp and up
This is what I would gauge my business upon before I proceed with proto typing.
Find out what members would like to spend with the stacked performance levels , then produce with those results.
Have a price set out for members that just pleasure drive that would like a little more power.
When you have to many "Irons" in the fire as you stated, you loose focus on the first thing you are trying to accomplish and sell,things get pushed back, guys move on.
Most people are impulse buyers in the world, Market it , price it , then deliver without changing to more options, have the options set out with prices .
The poll would dictate as to what to bring to the site.
Good luck
JMO
Eric
Why not take a poll on who would be interested in what ?
Such as ,
1) Who is happy with the current performance level of their Olds
2) Who would be interested with 300hp , 350hp , 400hp and up
This is what I would gauge my business upon before I proceed with proto typing.
Find out what members would like to spend with the stacked performance levels , then produce with those results.
Have a price set out for members that just pleasure drive that would like a little more power.
When you have to many "Irons" in the fire as you stated, you loose focus on the first thing you are trying to accomplish and sell,things get pushed back, guys move on.
Most people are impulse buyers in the world, Market it , price it , then deliver without changing to more options, have the options set out with prices .
The poll would dictate as to what to bring to the site.
Good luck
JMO
Eric
I spent a year studying the marketplace and selling iron cylinder heads would be stupid. The average guy, like yourself, just wants something complete that can go in your car and put a big ol smile on your face every time you hit the "go" pedal.
The machine shop I work for has all the capabilities of making that happen. Plus we have the flow bench and dyno to prove it. This Thursday will show me if I am on to something here. I could be wrong, or could be right. We'll see....
January 23rd, 2016, 08:49 PM
#47
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There is no point in the poll you mention because the absolute minimum I would do for an engine would make 460hp/540tq. I wouldn't do any less.
I spent a year studying the marketplace and selling iron cylinder heads would be stupid. The average guy, like yourself, just wants something complete that can go in your car and put a big ol smile on your face every time you hit the "go" pedal.
The machine shop I work for has all the capabilities of making that happen. Plus we have the flow bench and dyno to prove it. This Thursday will show me if I am on to something here. I could be wrong, or could be right. We'll see....
I spent a year studying the marketplace and selling iron cylinder heads would be stupid. The average guy, like yourself, just wants something complete that can go in your car and put a big ol smile on your face every time you hit the "go" pedal.
The machine shop I work for has all the capabilities of making that happen. Plus we have the flow bench and dyno to prove it. This Thursday will show me if I am on to something here. I could be wrong, or could be right. We'll see....
January 24th, 2016, 06:59 AM
#48
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[QUOTE=80 Rocket;888985]There is no point in the poll you mention because the absolute minimum I would do for an engine would make 460hp/540tq. I wouldn't do any less.
So you want to stay in line with most of the other Olds builders. It seems not many Olds builders want to build anything under 450hp. I can see why some drop LS engines in their Olds along with Chebby engines. I wonder what the trend will be over the next few years in the Oldsmobile world. Wish you all the best in your new adventure man.
Eric
So you want to stay in line with most of the other Olds builders. It seems not many Olds builders want to build anything under 450hp. I can see why some drop LS engines in their Olds along with Chebby engines. I wonder what the trend will be over the next few years in the Oldsmobile world. Wish you all the best in your new adventure man.
Eric
January 24th, 2016, 07:11 AM
#49
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[QUOTE=76olds;889073]
Maybe with a gloom and doom out look of under 450HP engines. Maybe we need a bigger chebby Forum for guys thinking this way on a oldsmobile site.Negativity toward oldsmobiles is always refreshing.
There is no point in the poll you mention because the absolute minimum I would do for an engine would make 460hp/540tq. I wouldn't do any less.
So you want to stay in line with most of the other Olds builders. It seems not many Olds builders want to build anything under 450hp. I can see why some drop LS engines in their Olds along with Chebby engines. I wonder what the trend will be over the next few years in the Oldsmobile world. Wish you all the best in your new adventure man.
Eric
So you want to stay in line with most of the other Olds builders. It seems not many Olds builders want to build anything under 450hp. I can see why some drop LS engines in their Olds along with Chebby engines. I wonder what the trend will be over the next few years in the Oldsmobile world. Wish you all the best in your new adventure man.
Eric
January 24th, 2016, 08:07 AM
#50
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[QUOTE=wr1970;889075]
No doom and gloom here with Olds engines not being built under the 450hp margin. We have other options. I also do understand this way of thinking and the business model for not wanting to build anything under that level. I spoke with BILL for the good part of an hour with regards to his builds, not going to get into his way of thinking or business model. He simply will not build anything mild with cheaper parts. That is working for him at the moment.
Some guys don't want to get into swapping out rear gears, Torque converter, and upgrade the suspension and brakes for the min 450hp in a forum such as this . However a poll would dictate this .
I myself have went with lower rear gear, a step up in Torque converter , wilwood brakes etc. However I don't need 450 hp so where does that leave guys like myself ? Shelling out the cash for the Olds or looking into other options for the $$$. Their are other options !!!
I see a huge trend of 73-77 olds coming up and getting saved from the crusher. This could be the market to look into or possibly not. Networking in that market would be the key to know what to bring to that sector.
Either way I think an offering of a mild street stocker with 300-400 hp would keep the overhead going in any adventure while waiting for the guys that are searching for bigger numbers.
Again good luck I hope things go well for you Don.
Wr1970 you are nothing but a shyt disturber !!
Some guys don't want to get into swapping out rear gears, Torque converter, and upgrade the suspension and brakes for the min 450hp in a forum such as this . However a poll would dictate this .
I myself have went with lower rear gear, a step up in Torque converter , wilwood brakes etc. However I don't need 450 hp so where does that leave guys like myself ? Shelling out the cash for the Olds or looking into other options for the $$$. Their are other options !!!
I see a huge trend of 73-77 olds coming up and getting saved from the crusher. This could be the market to look into or possibly not. Networking in that market would be the key to know what to bring to that sector.
Either way I think an offering of a mild street stocker with 300-400 hp would keep the overhead going in any adventure while waiting for the guys that are searching for bigger numbers.
Again good luck I hope things go well for you Don.
Wr1970 you are nothing but a shyt disturber !!
Last edited by 76olds; January 24th, 2016 at 08:14 AM.
January 24th, 2016, 08:09 AM
#51
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So you want to stay in line with most of the other Olds builders. It seems not many Olds builders want to build anything under 450hp. I can see why some drop LS engines in their Olds along with Chebby engines. I wonder what the trend will be over the next few years in the Oldsmobile world. Wish you all the best in your new adventure man.
Eric
The thing I see that is the driving factor in driving people to LS motors is the price. A BBO that only puts out 500hp and is over $10 grand is way too much.
January 24th, 2016, 08:36 AM
#52
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I don't follow. It would cost the same for 400hp as it would for 460hp (we are talking 455s here). The cam will cost the same, crank regrind is still the same, rods are still the same price, block work is all the same, even the head work will be the same.
The thing I see that is the driving factor in driving people to LS motors is the price. A BBO that only puts out 500hp and is over $10 grand is way too much.
The thing I see that is the driving factor in driving people to LS motors is the price. A BBO that only puts out 500hp and is over $10 grand is way too much.
What age group is purchasing these cars at the moment? What income bracket are these guys in? They all want more but for what price?
Do they want to upgrade the whole car in order to handle and utilize the only power level your are offering?
Maybe so , what about all the small block guys ? Ther is a huge number of new members coming up through the forums with 73-77 cars its the age group that were in at the moment.
Not everyone wants to go with the 455.
Pro-comps have and will be the head of choice soon IMO, Why because of cost.
I think the number of Olds engine builds in the next few years will dictate the fate of Oldsmobile engines going forward.
January 24th, 2016, 08:52 AM
#53
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Pro comps are cheaper than some heads that doesn't equate to being better period. You assume a lot. I find on this site several pro comp guys have taken this stand because of price. Do i think they could make a pro comp head for very high performance engines? Yes the over sea guys have stolen so much what stops them. Corporate greed of some company's also helps this. No way to get around it when it comes to cheap of not using off shore parts.
January 24th, 2016, 09:09 AM
#54
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Pro comps are cheaper than some heads that doesn't equate to being better period. You assume a lot. I find on this site several pro comp guys have taken this stand because of price. Do i think they could make a pro comp head for very high performance engines? Yes the over sea guys have stolen so much what stops them. Corporate greed of some company's also helps this. No way to get around it when it comes to cheap of not using off shore parts.
Its a good thing pro comps came to the market, what if they didn't?
Corporate greed is here to stay.
I do assume alot yes, but the trends tell it like it is.
If I were starting out building engines in a competitive market I would definitely need to come up with a well thought out business plan.
If I was to take a hundred smog 350 engine blocks, I would'nt start out with a CNC machine to do cast iron heads.
You guys say cast iron is as good as the pro-comps, so I would purchase a few older style bridgeport mills ( get them for $500 bucks now) make a fixture and tip the head on the proper angle and with some good 2 flute carbide endmills ( ballnose, square corner with different radiuses) you could pound out alot of smog heads. 3 bridgports plunging out cast heads with different head angles will get you ther with minimal handwork to finish.
If you think Irons can be made as good.
Then build to any performance level.
Ther is a ton of smog engines just waiting for something good to happen .
Anyway I may be out ther with my way of thinking so have at er' wish you guys all the best man.
Eric
January 24th, 2016, 09:18 AM
#55
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Offshore parts are here to stay, Price dictates every market now even if your selling candies.
Its a good thing pro comps came to the market, what if they didn't?
Corporate greed is here to stay.
I do assume alot yes, but the trends tell it like it is.
If I were starting out building engines in a competitive market I would definitely need to come up with a well thought out business plan.
If I was to take a hundred smog 350 engine blocks, I would'nt start out with a CNC machine to do cast iron heads.
You guys say cast iron is as good as the pro-comps, so I would purchase a few older style bridgeport mills ( get them for $500 bucks now) make a fixture and tip the head on the proper angle and with some good 2 flute carbide endmills ( ballnose, square corner with different radiuses) you could pound out alot of smog heads. 3 bridgports plunging out cast heads with different head angles will get you ther with minimal handwork to finish.
If you think Irons can be made as good.
Then build to any performance level.
Ther is a ton of smog engines just waiting for something good to happen .
Anyway I may be out ther with my way of thinking so have at er' wish you guys all the best man.
Eric
Its a good thing pro comps came to the market, what if they didn't?
Corporate greed is here to stay.
I do assume alot yes, but the trends tell it like it is.
If I were starting out building engines in a competitive market I would definitely need to come up with a well thought out business plan.
If I was to take a hundred smog 350 engine blocks, I would'nt start out with a CNC machine to do cast iron heads.
You guys say cast iron is as good as the pro-comps, so I would purchase a few older style bridgeport mills ( get them for $500 bucks now) make a fixture and tip the head on the proper angle and with some good 2 flute carbide endmills ( ballnose, square corner with different radiuses) you could pound out alot of smog heads. 3 bridgports plunging out cast heads with different head angles will get you ther with minimal handwork to finish.
If you think Irons can be made as good.
Then build to any performance level.
Ther is a ton of smog engines just waiting for something good to happen .
Anyway I may be out ther with my way of thinking so have at er' wish you guys all the best man.
Eric
January 24th, 2016, 09:24 AM
#56
I like how people over complicate things. A stock w30 made 370 underrated hp and over 500 lf lbs of tq. With iron heads and "wild" cam. cam technology has come a long way so you can actually have a much bigger cam than the w30 and still have power brakes. Anywho I honestly dont think its that hard to make a little over 1 hp per cubic inch on an BBO or SBO with iron heads and relatively nothing special besides carefully picking components and addressing a few areas our engines fall short on. I think the oldsmobile market is plagued by opportunist who come up short when its time to deliver and people go with other engine brands. But i get it its an oldsmobile its complicated and only certain people can build em right ????? lol. I think this brand is also plagued by a bunch of check writers to be honest and it goes hand in hand with getting hustled. Thats why i dont trust anyone and build my own stuff and i advocate for people to build their own stuff . If i can do it anyone else can. I dont have years of experience but the info is out there for the taking.
January 24th, 2016, 09:33 AM
#57
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I like how people over complicate things. A stock w30 made 370 underrated hp and over 500 lf lbs of tq. With iron heads and "wild" cam. cam technology has come a long way so you can actually have a much bigger cam than the w30 and still have power brakes. Anywho I honestly dont think its that hard to make a little over 1 hp per cubic inch on an BBO or SBO with iron heads and relatively nothing special besides carefully picking components and addressing a few areas our engines fall short on. I think the oldsmobile market is plagued by opportunist who come up short when its time to deliver and people go with other engine brands. But i get it its an oldsmobile its complicated and only certain people can build em right ????? lol. I think this brand is also plagued by a bunch of check writers to be honest and it goes hand in hand with getting hustled. Thats why i dont trust anyone and build my own stuff and i advocate for people to build their own stuff . If i can do it anyone else can. I dont have years of experience but the info is out there for the taking.
January 24th, 2016, 09:47 AM
#58
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I agree copper, all the info is out there. Good thing we can buy cheap Chinese mics, bore gauges etc as well. Tools are getting cheaper and cheaper . You can fill a tool box for under a Gnote now. These tools are good anuff for any application really. No need to buy mitutoyo or starret measuring instruments to mic a crank or measure a bore anymore.
Maybe guys will start building their own engines, just sending machining out.
Its guys like you in the forum that inspire many to go at it on their own .
For some its complicate , for some they just don't have the time, for some its all about the cost.
Either way building Olds engines will be debated until they become extinct be it over complicating things or cost effective decisions.
Maybe guys will start building their own engines, just sending machining out.
Its guys like you in the forum that inspire many to go at it on their own .
For some its complicate , for some they just don't have the time, for some its all about the cost.
Either way building Olds engines will be debated until they become extinct be it over complicating things or cost effective decisions.
January 24th, 2016, 09:53 AM
#59
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I think the market that's on the rise are the 70-77 year Olds . The 80-87 olds are building chevy engines because thats what they were born with and they are inexpensive to build.
Some 80-87 Olds guys throw a smog 350 Olds in and then wonder WTF , then they figure out what a bad decision it was.
If Olds engine builders are just building 450hp plus, they are missing out on a market that is on the rise.
I myself like to see iron heads on an old car at the shows, but how many do you see with irons now ? Not many!
JMO.
Eric
Some 80-87 Olds guys throw a smog 350 Olds in and then wonder WTF , then they figure out what a bad decision it was.
If Olds engine builders are just building 450hp plus, they are missing out on a market that is on the rise.
I myself like to see iron heads on an old car at the shows, but how many do you see with irons now ? Not many!
JMO.
Eric
Last edited by 76olds; January 24th, 2016 at 10:00 AM.
January 24th, 2016, 10:08 AM
#60
I see lots of iron heads still. But the reality is our brand has no market. If there was we wouldn't have the issues we have with piston supplies running out , and limited runs of heads etc etc. Look at Pontiac look at Buick they have support . I think if it was a money maker they would be making stuff by now. Sad to say but it's a reality. One small group of people won't do jack squat.
January 24th, 2016, 10:27 AM
#61
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I see lots of iron heads still. But the reality is our brand has no market. If there was we wouldn't have the issues we have with piston supplies running out , and limited runs of heads etc etc. Look at Pontiac look at Buick they have support . I think if it was a money maker they would be making stuff by now. Sad to say but it's a reality. One small group of people won't do jack squat.
You don't need a 5 axis mill to do heads, you don't need flow testing, dyno testing with the 70-77 olds car owners IMO.
The 70-77 guys want a bit more out of their smog engines but not with a huge price tag. Chances are they own a newer LS based daily driver if they are car guys.
Their Olds is just for fun, showing and wanting the old school dual exhaust sound that will lay rubber down once in a while. This is the way I see it .
January 24th, 2016, 10:29 AM
#62
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I see lots of iron heads still. But the reality is our brand has no market. If there was we wouldn't have the issues we have with piston supplies running out , and limited runs of heads etc etc. Look at Pontiac look at Buick they have support . I think if it was a money maker they would be making stuff by now. Sad to say but it's a reality. One small group of people won't do jack squat.
January 24th, 2016, 10:29 AM
#63
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I like how people over complicate things. A stock w30 made 370 underrated hp and over 500 lf lbs of tq. With iron heads and "wild" cam. cam technology has come a long way so you can actually have a much bigger cam than the w30 and still have power brakes. Anywho I honestly dont think its that hard to make a little over 1 hp per cubic inch on an BBO or SBO with iron heads and relatively nothing special besides carefully picking components and addressing a few areas our engines fall short on. I think the oldsmobile market is plagued by opportunist who come up short when its time to deliver and people go with other engine brands. But i get it its an oldsmobile its complicated and only certain people can build em right ????? lol. I think this brand is also plagued by a bunch of check writers to be honest and it goes hand in hand with getting hustled. Thats why i dont trust anyone and build my own stuff and i advocate for people to build their own stuff . If i can do it anyone else can. I dont have years of experience but the info is out there for the taking.
January 24th, 2016, 10:31 AM
#64
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torque gets it moving..horse power makes it fly.
there....all the mumble jumble and i fixed it in 1 sentence
"I am a racer and want horsepower. Thats what I feel going 7 seconds down the 1/4 mile."
7.47 at 175...
well 7.47 aint 7 seconds is it?..its a lot closer to 8 than 7.....no wait...i took my other shoe off counted some toes..and did some calculating..and 7.47 is an air plane....
after i posted i realized 7.47 is closer to 7 than 8...dang..sometimes im thick
just bustin *****...i know its fast..
there....all the mumble jumble and i fixed it in 1 sentence
"I am a racer and want horsepower. Thats what I feel going 7 seconds down the 1/4 mile."
7.47 at 175...
well 7.47 aint 7 seconds is it?..its a lot closer to 8 than 7.....no wait...i took my other shoe off counted some toes..and did some calculating..and 7.47 is an air plane....
after i posted i realized 7.47 is closer to 7 than 8...dang..sometimes im thick
just bustin *****...i know its fast..
Last edited by marxjunk; January 24th, 2016 at 10:53 AM.
January 24th, 2016, 10:37 AM
#65
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torque gets it moving..horse power makes it fly.
there....all the mumble jumble and i fixed it in 1 sentence
"I am a racer and want horsepower. Thats what I feel going 7 seconds down the 1/4 mile."
7.47 at 175...
well 7.47 aint 7 seconds is it?..its a lot closer to 8 than 7....
just bustin *****...i know its fast..
there....all the mumble jumble and i fixed it in 1 sentence
"I am a racer and want horsepower. Thats what I feel going 7 seconds down the 1/4 mile."
7.47 at 175...
well 7.47 aint 7 seconds is it?..its a lot closer to 8 than 7....
just bustin *****...i know its fast..
January 24th, 2016, 10:42 AM
#66
FWIW in todays age of technology suppliers are probably going on sites like ROP to see what demands are ., and they see all the bull$hit talk , How people slam vendors , How $hitty vendors are Not to mention us as consumers complain as well. It does not look good. IM sorry but you wanna put the world on end and bring attention to the olds world Do something totally new. If that has not been done yet it should tell you something. But in order to do something great you need to truly put in some serious coin have a run ready to go. But NO ONE is willing to do that obviously., otherwise we wouldnt be willing to be using ancient $hit.
I built a buick 350 years ago and was amazed at how many parts there was available NEW ! All from one source pretty much too. When we do have a vendor who supplies something worth while they f**k it up with sh**ty service , shotty work or not doing what was said and there goes that. How many times has that happened.
We have doomed out own brand pretty much. Im gonna be real ., but if i was serious about going fast i would not be doing it with ancient technology why the hell would you hold your self back.
Guys in the olds world work so hard to go 10's when you could build and ls series engine with low boost and be right there with not so much investment. Thats how technology works. Im not saying our oldsmobiles are not worth while but lets be realistic here. The fastest's olds have done it with batten heads and they where designed how long ago ????? That should tell you where we stand.
I built a buick 350 years ago and was amazed at how many parts there was available NEW ! All from one source pretty much too. When we do have a vendor who supplies something worth while they f**k it up with sh**ty service , shotty work or not doing what was said and there goes that. How many times has that happened.
We have doomed out own brand pretty much. Im gonna be real ., but if i was serious about going fast i would not be doing it with ancient technology why the hell would you hold your self back.
Guys in the olds world work so hard to go 10's when you could build and ls series engine with low boost and be right there with not so much investment. Thats how technology works. Im not saying our oldsmobiles are not worth while but lets be realistic here. The fastest's olds have done it with batten heads and they where designed how long ago ????? That should tell you where we stand.
Last edited by coppercutlass; January 24th, 2016 at 10:56 AM.
January 24th, 2016, 10:49 AM
#67
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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Well not droves but they are sitting waiting.
January 24th, 2016, 10:53 AM
#68
Smog engines done matter. if you are building an engine you will need new pistons , You can find core heads that will accomedate compression. There is a guy out there running 11's i think with J heads. Just because its a smog engine dont mean it cant be built.
January 24th, 2016, 11:09 AM
#69
Hookers under Hood
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Alot of these guys want more, the posts show it here. I'm one of them!
Now without doing my rear gear first, getting the tranny done, suspension etc I would be throwing money away having a 450hp build.
How many guys with 70-77 year cars that they just purchased can do all of that in order to dump a 450hp engine into. I wouldn't think many !
Anything can be built and made to work yes, but will it all work together in these Old cars without throwing a ton of cash at the components needed to make it happen.
January 24th, 2016, 11:20 AM
#70
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At the end of the day, If I were thinking about building olds engines, my focus would be on the 70-77 year car owners that just drive them on the street . I would build torque monsters that stay within the 2500-3500 range . Big HP is no dam good for the street plus the fact the current 73-77 market cars could handle 450hp unless just going in a straight line.
Torque plays a big role on the city streets .
Torque plays a big role on the city streets .
January 24th, 2016, 11:37 AM
#71
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,607
At the end of the day, If I were thinking about building olds engines, my focus would be on the 70-77 year car owners that just drive them on the street . I would build torque monsters that stay within the 2500-3500 range . Big HP is no dam good for the street plus the fact the current 73-77 market cars could handle 450hp unless just going in a straight line.
Torque plays a big role on the city streets .
Torque plays a big role on the city streets .
January 24th, 2016, 11:44 AM
#72
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Don a ? here for you ,
If you happen to take this adventure over and I were a customer and came to you with;
A 73-77 year cutlass with a TH350 , 2:41- 2:73 rear gears or unknown gear as many don't know, and asked you to build me something with more power.
Would you tell me, you only build to a minimum of 450HP and turn business away because the car isn't capable of utilizing the power without upgrading the converter, rear gears, carb , exhaust,headers and possibly soft suspension?
Or would you just sell me an engine?
If you happen to take this adventure over and I were a customer and came to you with;
A 73-77 year cutlass with a TH350 , 2:41- 2:73 rear gears or unknown gear as many don't know, and asked you to build me something with more power.
Would you tell me, you only build to a minimum of 450HP and turn business away because the car isn't capable of utilizing the power without upgrading the converter, rear gears, carb , exhaust,headers and possibly soft suspension?
Or would you just sell me an engine?
January 24th, 2016, 11:46 AM
#73
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Do most guys run over 3500rpm thru the city streets in your area or do you for that matter? Do you fly around the city streets at 5-5500 with 4+ gearing stopping at every gas station to fill up with shyt gas until your high stall converter turns purple ?
Last edited by 76olds; January 24th, 2016 at 11:52 AM.
January 24th, 2016, 11:54 AM
#74
76olds sorry to say this but you have no clue. This is how i would do it build a 455. pretty easy to hit 450 as its been said and the tq. will be well over 510. A stock th400 with a shift kit will handle the power no problem. Its really not that hard.
My car although an sbo is proof it can be done . Its basic . I have a th350 trans with a basic rebuild and extra clutches and shift kit. 3000 stall runs 12.6's and its a full street car. easy to drive on the street. great street manners and its more aggressive probably than a comparable 455.
I had a lesser combo that was ridiculously fun on the street. 9to1 350 pretty tame actually , th400 2200 stall and 3.42 gears ran 13.9's in the 1/4 mile. It would roast em like no ones business.
What i dont get is you want tq and gobs of it BUT for what . a well balanced set up will yeild a fun street car as i mentioned. I think alot of people dont get that to have a fun street car you dont need X amount of tq. or hp. Like i mentioned before i had a 307 in my 72 cutlass the engine was stock. I had it topped of with a holley 650 DP , headers , 2400 stall on the th400 and 3.73 gears. That thing would smoke em with ease and kept up with traffic and moved very very well considering it was a p.o.s worn out 307. I could stomp it and leave a stop light like a jack rabbit.
You could probably freshen up a 455 with 9 to 1 compression and a mild cam and be right where your @$$ dyno would wanna be. Its been done and its simple.
My car although an sbo is proof it can be done . Its basic . I have a th350 trans with a basic rebuild and extra clutches and shift kit. 3000 stall runs 12.6's and its a full street car. easy to drive on the street. great street manners and its more aggressive probably than a comparable 455.
I had a lesser combo that was ridiculously fun on the street. 9to1 350 pretty tame actually , th400 2200 stall and 3.42 gears ran 13.9's in the 1/4 mile. It would roast em like no ones business.
What i dont get is you want tq and gobs of it BUT for what . a well balanced set up will yeild a fun street car as i mentioned. I think alot of people dont get that to have a fun street car you dont need X amount of tq. or hp. Like i mentioned before i had a 307 in my 72 cutlass the engine was stock. I had it topped of with a holley 650 DP , headers , 2400 stall on the th400 and 3.73 gears. That thing would smoke em with ease and kept up with traffic and moved very very well considering it was a p.o.s worn out 307. I could stomp it and leave a stop light like a jack rabbit.
You could probably freshen up a 455 with 9 to 1 compression and a mild cam and be right where your @$$ dyno would wanna be. Its been done and its simple.
January 24th, 2016, 12:02 PM
#75
76olds . You want tq. and power a certain engine will need certain reuierments. you can stuff a 460 hp engine with 2.72 gears and have a great low rpm engine but guess what the gear will make it a dog how long will it take for it to hit peak tq. rpm range ???? . My sbo would probably leave a set up like that like it was tied to a tree stump. Tq. converters and gear ratios multiply tq.
My dad's 77 pontiac with my old 9 to 1 350 is proof of what i just said. It has a stock converter and 3.08 gears. It can bearly spin the tires. My dad is not after all that. But if we stuffed a 2400 stall and 3.42's like how i once had it it would probably move alot faster. How much a little change can a big diffrence. his car might have 500lbs on mine but when you drive it you can watch the tach and watch at what rpm the engine wakes up at. if i had a 3.42 and that stall it would spin up faster and the rest is self explanitory.
Thats just my observation based on my experience.
My dad's 77 pontiac with my old 9 to 1 350 is proof of what i just said. It has a stock converter and 3.08 gears. It can bearly spin the tires. My dad is not after all that. But if we stuffed a 2400 stall and 3.42's like how i once had it it would probably move alot faster. How much a little change can a big diffrence. his car might have 500lbs on mine but when you drive it you can watch the tach and watch at what rpm the engine wakes up at. if i had a 3.42 and that stall it would spin up faster and the rest is self explanitory.
Thats just my observation based on my experience.
Last edited by coppercutlass; January 24th, 2016 at 12:04 PM.
January 24th, 2016, 12:08 PM
#76
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76 olds i have no trouble driving my car on the street with a 3600 stall converter. My engine will max out at around 5100to 5400 with no real tire spin period. The reason why is chassis set up. Mine just leaves and this isn't bragging. Just a fact when a car is set up right the less tire spin puts more power to the pavement. Copper said it you have no clue!
January 24th, 2016, 12:10 PM
#77
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Copper, Perhaps I don't have a clue. Im no where near an engine builder nor do I have the interest in doing so.
If it takes x amount of $$$ to build an Olds, be it 350 or 455 then so it does.
The price going forward will dictate how long Olds engines continue to be built and for what cars.
Yes I could have someone freshen up a 455 for in around $2500 up here.
That isn't the problem, the problem being is if someone wanted to have a fresh build, the price for many is to expensive.
This is why so many here have posted bad deals when trying to get a deal on an Olds rebuild.
Wr1970, I've never claimed to know anything about engine building, but I sure as heck don't ask builders to explain how they do things when my engine isn't in their shop .
ANUF-SAID
If it takes x amount of $$$ to build an Olds, be it 350 or 455 then so it does.
The price going forward will dictate how long Olds engines continue to be built and for what cars.
Yes I could have someone freshen up a 455 for in around $2500 up here.
That isn't the problem, the problem being is if someone wanted to have a fresh build, the price for many is to expensive.
This is why so many here have posted bad deals when trying to get a deal on an Olds rebuild.
Wr1970, I've never claimed to know anything about engine building, but I sure as heck don't ask builders to explain how they do things when my engine isn't in their shop .
ANUF-SAID
Last edited by 76olds; January 24th, 2016 at 12:18 PM.
January 24th, 2016, 12:19 PM
#78
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,607
Copper, Perhaps I don't have a clue. Im no where near an engine builder nor do I have the interest in doing so.
If it takes x amount of $$$ to build an Olds be it 350 or 455 then so it does.
The price going forward will dictate how long Olds engines continue to be built and for what cars.
Yes I could have someone freshen up a 455 for in around $2500 up here.
That isn't the problem, the problem being is if someone wanted to have a fresh build the price for many is to expensive.
This is why so many here have posted bad deals when trying to get a deal on an Olds rebuild.
If it takes x amount of $$$ to build an Olds be it 350 or 455 then so it does.
The price going forward will dictate how long Olds engines continue to be built and for what cars.
Yes I could have someone freshen up a 455 for in around $2500 up here.
That isn't the problem, the problem being is if someone wanted to have a fresh build the price for many is to expensive.
This is why so many here have posted bad deals when trying to get a deal on an Olds rebuild.
January 24th, 2016, 12:41 PM
#79
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My apologies as well wr1970. So what I don't get is the cost period. I'm not a cheap person in any way, but I simply can't see spending huge coin on an old iron horse. N Hey I've spent alot of money on my iron horse LOL. I think I can say that about a few here on the forum that went with cheaper builders and were left with a POS.
I have the coin to spend on my car and on any engine I want. I would like to stay Olds power most definitely, but the one thing I can get past is the cost and like I said most are the same way.
Is their or will their ever be price alternatives in the olds world, likely not. Will people continue to look at cheaper shops to do engine builds and have complications, absolutely.
I get the pro's and con's with the heads yes. Would I keep my Irons on my 350 if I ever had it built? Yes .
Who would I get my heads from " Dave the freak" I would have to eat the cost of an olds build at that point using Dave's heads.
Would I like to spend more than 45hun on a 350 build without at least 400hp nofn way.
Am I temped, sure when I think ah what the heck I may as well just spend 8-10k and have a wicked Olds.
But then the LS bells go off and I keep putting it off.
Anyway good luck to Don on his future endeavours, I hope they work out for him.
To me Torque rules with the olds motors in stock form at the moment. HP will cost a little to much for me at the moment.
I have the coin to spend on my car and on any engine I want. I would like to stay Olds power most definitely, but the one thing I can get past is the cost and like I said most are the same way.
Is their or will their ever be price alternatives in the olds world, likely not. Will people continue to look at cheaper shops to do engine builds and have complications, absolutely.
I get the pro's and con's with the heads yes. Would I keep my Irons on my 350 if I ever had it built? Yes .
Who would I get my heads from " Dave the freak" I would have to eat the cost of an olds build at that point using Dave's heads.
Would I like to spend more than 45hun on a 350 build without at least 400hp nofn way.
Am I temped, sure when I think ah what the heck I may as well just spend 8-10k and have a wicked Olds.
But then the LS bells go off and I keep putting it off.
Anyway good luck to Don on his future endeavours, I hope they work out for him.
To me Torque rules with the olds motors in stock form at the moment. HP will cost a little to much for me at the moment.
Last edited by 76olds; January 24th, 2016 at 12:51 PM.
January 24th, 2016, 12:59 PM
#80
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,607
76 olds Dave the freak has shown the world how to port a olds head! Why not try it. Small block heads are cheap. The pick a combo that has some performance with proper cam. Build it yourself and use the motor you have till it is done. You will get a lot of satisfaction of learning and doing.This is what copper did built his combo found what worked and what didn't. The short cut is higher $$$$. A little know how can go a long ways in performance.
