mrolds69

I think this best explains it, Ralph. You will need to read it all. I don't think it's a conspiracy.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...er-gas.243334/

pettrix

Virtually most additives that go into any fuel, as specified by the retailer, is done at the fuel terminal when the tanker is loaded. A swipe card lays out the specs for the end retailer, then various lights go on with different tanks as they inject additive into the stream being loaded in to the truck tanker.

Costco is different and adds theirs in their own tanks when the fuel is delivered and pumped into the underground tanks. They have an on-site injection setup to meter and dispense their additive which is supposedly a Lubrizol product.

So additives in gasoline are real and Top Tier is real. It's not all conspiracy theories.

NTXOlds

FWIW, back in the early 90s when I was in college I worked at a petroleum research institute where we performed various emissions tests for all of the major petroleum companies. They would send us barrels of regular pump gas and test batches, and we would run various tests on them. Most of my time was spent "driving" the cars on the dyno (we performed the EPA "city" and "highway" fuel economy tests that you see on the window stickers of new cars) while capturing the exhaust fumes. We would then run the exhaust fumes through gas chromatographs to determine the composition of the exhaust for greenhouse gases, unburned hydrocarbons, etc. We also had a smog chamber where we would pump some of the exhaust into various nonreactive chambers full of air and other emissions and let the daylight create smog, and we were able to create predictive models on how various test fuels and alternative fuels would impact smog.

Anyway, at least back then I can vouch for the fact that there were significant differences between brands of gasoline which was proven by the test results we saw. The dyno monkeys like me were also so accustomed to running baseline tests with the standard out of the pump options from the various manufacturers that we could identify the brands by the smell of the gasoline itself. I am sure that things have changed a lot since then, but back then the differences between brands was dramatic.

Just for fun, when I bought a brand new F150 back in 2003, I recorded my fuel economy, driving conditions (city versus highway), octane and brand of gasoline on every tank of gasoline I bought for the first 20,000 miles I put on the truck. (Yah, I know. That is a bit insane.) I saw small differences in fuel economy between regular and premium but not enough to justify the cost difference since the truck only required regular unleaded, but I consistently saw a 10% improvement in gas mileage on gas from RaceTrac over all other brands. On an F150, that was a nice bump in fuel economy, so I would buy RaceTrac whenever it was convenient.

Vintage Chief

I fail to understand how you believe this to be true? A fuel dispatch depot is composed of numerous either above ground or below ground holding tanks. Holding tanks contain one of several blends based upon octane rating, diesel, kerosene, heating oil, jet fuel, etc. I don't know what fuel dispatch depots you've witnessed these aberrations of fuel delivery, but that is not how petroleum products are delivered to end-user consumer petroleum gasoline stations. There have always been cases where certain select fuel dispatch depots operate far from industry standards (very shoddy outfits), but the majority of fuel dispatch depots operate via normal industry standards. As has been mentioned, some suppliers add their additives to the fuel transport vehicle fuel tank (most do not). Most additives are added at a dispatch fuel depot or at a fungible branch batch point. Many folks had they been performing any research when the Colonial Pipeline was sabotaged by hackers, could/might have easily identified why some gas stations had gas while many others did not. Much has to do with segregated versus fungible networking pipelines and the batch sizes (and their overall fuel dispatch depot holding tank locations) of refined petroleum product and availability of underground fuel dispatch depot holding tanks. I can think of one example where you'd be hard-pressed for this type of shenanigan to occur. Diesel fuels are required to be dyed - red for off-road use only (non-taxed, high sulfur), clear (or often light green) for on-road (taxed, low sulfur) and blue for U.S. Government vehicles only. Those dyes are generally added at either the refinery (there are many throughout the country) or often at a fungible fuel dispatch branch point based upon demand/usage.

Colonial Pipeline
Colonial Fuel & Lubricant Services primarily moves Shell, Citgo, Kendall & Phillips 66 petroleum gasoline products via numerous segregated & fungible fuel dispatch branch points.

Vintage Chief

I disagree. Crude oil is a commodity, gasoline is not a commodity. Branding of what is market hype? The branding of crude oil is defined by the owner of the holding company e.g. Shell, Exxon, etc. They 'extract' crude oil (the commodity), they can (if they choose, many do) refine the oil they extract, or sell the crude oil commodity to any of numerous distillation &/or cracking refinery plants (of many various brand names). I don't believe it's hype - it's based upon ownership & competition in the marketplace. If in fact, you're referring to marketing hype of the end product (gasoline), there are countless reams of research identifying the specific benefits of gasoline additives & detergents which are, in fact, germane to the specific company with specific benefits. Do you really believe Shell, Exxon, Phillips 66, Mobil, Citgo, etc. are not evaluating the cost/benefit of spending millions of dollars for gasoline detergents/additives to their product versus a competitor. Sorry, I disagree - I don't believe it's marketing hype. I'd prefer a diesel fuel w/ a CN = 63 to a diesel fuel w/ a CN = 43. Some might call that marketing hype, but in fact it's real science.

OLDSter Ralph

I was trying to make a point. The person who I quoted and asked the question, was dispensing total BS. I have spot checked gas mileage and performance on every Oldsmobile I have ever owned and driven. The 55, 57, 65, 67, 71, 73, 74 with low performance engines would run on anything and there were marginal improvements in gas mileage. Performance (calibrated butt dyno readings) showed no performance benefits.
The higher performance engines would show performance increases with certain brands of gasoline. Gas mileage checks showed marginal gas mileage increases. This was due to the fact that the differential ratio's were 3.90, 4.10, 4.33, 5.00 and my "style of driving".

This is pretty much a fact.
The person who suggested we sit and watch tanker trucks filled as "proof" it was all marketing crap is poorly informed. That would be about as accurate as someone sitting on a street corner watching taxi cab's driving by and making assumptions how many people had been in the Taxi up to that point.

Grayghost

It is simple, Family owned Gulf and Shell stations.
One of the Shell stations had a Gulf and a Mobil, Texaco ,Sunoco all within a 300 yards of each other. The same truck made drops at all of them. not all 5 at once, but most days 2 different station brands. driving out of one and into the next. Other than the summer as the volume of gallons pumped tripled and most days a drop was the whole truck load, for a single station.
So, believe what you must. I will go with what I saw happen while working at family owned stations, The gulf was 50 miles from the Shell and the same thing went on between the 3 stations on that intersection . As did the Gulf that was one state over with other brands on the corner across from it.
Only when a Shell suit,rep was coming to the station did a SHELL labeled tanker truck show up to drop a load IF we were due for a drop that day. Same with The Gulf .
They both had corporate people that stop by the stations to make sure the place was clean, the bays well stocked with product/oil/tires/filters and tune up parts, belts,hoses,coolant, the fuel islands were painted(steel band around the concrete) and clean,
Pumps clean and maintained .Restroom clean, and food in the station was fresh and in code , In our case it was the Shells, as the Gulfs only had soda vending , the Shells had a tiny by today's standards mini mart with chips, soda, water, and a few other things, state lotto,smokes.
So, believe what you must.
I know that the tanker that I signed for the load and paid for, would leave us and go to another station on the street and drop fuel, never going back to the depot for a different tanker of fuel. other than summer months as a full tanker would most times drop the their whole load. week ends we get a drop at 5am and be out of regular before the end of the day. That station got drops daily all summer season from may to sept (labor day) holiday week ends it was a drop in the early am and another at 3pm. Friday/ Monday. Saturday it be 3 drops 5am/3pm and 8pm most holiday week ends if it wasn't a wash out (rain).
WE always run out of regular and special (mid grade) on Sundays, as did the other stations on the road, on holiday week ends , many times every Sunday we be out of regular.


but the fuel is different, right?

bccan

Just to be devil’s advocate. Most of the tank trailers I see have multiple outlets, possible they are internally segmented for differing blends?

Grayghost

One tanker, regular,(87) mid grade(89) and super 91-94 depending on area, iirc cali. 91 is as good as it gets.
That is what you are seeing as segmented.

mrolds69

I see you're an old guy, a few years younger than I am. What time period was this, because the whole TT deal didn't start until 2004 or 2005. I believe what you're saying, somewhat. The "Bob" article talked about a lot of different scenarios, too.

Grayghost

mid 60's to late 80's

mrolds69

Looks like you're going to need more bathtubs for testing, Norm!

rocketraider

There was a recent thread on AACA about gas prices. Someone posted a pic of a Shell in California that had 87 priced at $4.35. Expensive, but, California. What intrigued me was the price spread between grades. It was only 10c difference between 87/89 and then 89/91.

It was like that here in southside Virginia and north-central NC till about ten years ago. Now, the price gap between grades is 40 to 50 cents. Most 87 here is currently $2.86. 89 will be priced $3.26/$3.36, and 93 is routinely $3.76. Almost a buck a gallon more over 87.

What gives? Other than they can get away with it. I have trouble believing the additive packages and transportation costs are 50 cents more per gallon for the next higher grade.

What's the price spread between grades in your area?

mrolds69

Maybe they're trying to make more $ from the turbo cars. I've been looking at luxury cars to buy for a few months, and it seems many are 4cyl turbo cars, or twin turbo 6cyl cars. They all need high test. I have an XSE V6 Camry now that's over 300 hp and runs just fine on regular. I've got enough cars here that run on hi test, already.

Vintage Chief

Olds64

The price spread here in OK is generally less than $.25 / gallon between grades. Interestingly, I recently drove momma's Palisade to Dallas, TX. As I mentioned earlier, I generally put 100% gasoline in it. In TX I was able to find a pump with 100% gasoline (at the Buc-ee's travel stop in Denton, TX) but it was at least $.80 / gallon more than Regular E10. I was too cheap to pay the difference.

old greybeard

There is a additive that is used to create higher octanes. Read over a year ago it was in short supply. About the same time the gap in prices grew. Have noticed as they jack the low octane base price the gap has narrowed.

I won’t burn super market or convenience store gas, have seen mileage drops occur too often with different brands. There is a reason it’s cheaper. Because it’s not as good.

OLDSter Ralph

There has always been a price difference between the various grades since the 1950's. Diesel was actually cheaper than "regular" back in those years. People actually considered cars that required "Ethyl" a deal breaker.

StarRacer

My 425 was built to run on leaded gas so that's what I use. Pure Sunoco leaded gas in the 5 gallon pails. No I am NOT rich. I live in a climate where we're lucky to take the car out a dozen times a year so it sits more then it moves. Which is another reason I will always stay away from ethanol.

4+4+2=10

Well I gotta admit..... I underestimated the shelf life of this topic.....

66_Jetstar

The price of gas definitely influences my willingness to drive the old stuff. The Jetstar does reasonably well- usually around 16-17 mpg in town. Note I live in a very rural area and cruise 50-55 with few stops. The bummer with that car is it needs premium with the UHC 330. My hotrod Buick nets 11 on the road. I'm getting to the age where that just seems dumb to drive around. I often consider swapping the motor for a more reasonable driver instead of the race type engine I built for it. Time will tell.

Hammerdrop

Not exactly sure of the compression, but my 442 "runs on" unless it has has name brand premium Shell or Amoco. Other big names probably good too. Stay away from the big truck stop's stuff. I think Dick Miller did the engine to run on good premium. Timing set at 14° initial but vacuum advance probably adds some advance at idle.

fleming442

Carb isn't right. My run-on went away with EFI. I like more initial, like 16⁰.

Hammerdrop

Hah. My run-on went away when I got back to good gas.

fleming442

I get it; went through the same thing.

olds 307 and 403

Our company, Federated Coop, gas and diesel are Top Tier. They had to tweak the formula to meet Top Tier specs. With Premium, it is good idea to go to a high volume station. Premium gets pulled much less than regular. I use the STP additive, my boss also likes it. Especially in boats or other motors that sit a long time. Either you like or don't like additives, a personal choice. As far as run on, that seemed to be mostly a Ford problem. Their carbs were junk, so no surprise there.

fleming442

I know you've seen the threads on GBF about the solenoid that opens the throttle blades to cure run on. It's almost like (or the same as) an AC idle up.

olds 307 and 403

Yes, the anti dieseling solenoids. Makes sense. Like you said Bruce, probably a carb tune issue. It was one of the multitude of Ford factory carb issues.

Fun71

I use Top Tier gas from Costco that is 91 octane with 10% ethanol (that’s all we have here) and have no problems, even after that fuel sits in the tank for 5 or 6 months in 100+ garage temperatures. In the fall I just prime the carb and the engine fires up and runs well.

olds 307 and 403

Sucks some areas can't get non ethanol gas. I never saw issues on cars with 87 Octane with 10% Ethanol. My old 2 stroke carbed boat had issues and I had multiple 2 stroke carbs plug over the Winter with 10% Ethanol. I don't miss owning 2 strokes other than my 45cc and 49cc Jonsered chain saws which I don't really use anymore. I just added stabilizer a few years back and every now and then since. They fire right up and run great. Fun71 you are the sites extreme heat tester of Oldsmobile's.

jensenracing77

I have all kinds of problems with it in the small engines. Most cars I don't have a problem with it after sitting over the winter but I do have troubles with it freezing up the power piston in the Jetfire carburetors. I started running non ethanol and that problem went away.

I have yet for it to make a fuel pump go bad like so many claim.