joe_padavano

And I agree with that, WHEN THE INTENT IS TO DEFRAUD. I've know Chris Witt for decades, and I am completely sure he's not trying to defraud anyone. On the other hand, if the basic argument is that "counterfeit parts" are being used to increase the value of a car, then where do you draw the line? Is a frame off "restoration" that now includes every single option available from the factory a counterfeit (I would say yes, by the way), since the "restorer" added all these parts to increase the value of the car. I have no problem with someone adding these parts to their car, but document it and be completely up-front about it. Unfortunately, there are plenty of opportunities to defraud people. Be an educated buyer.

stevengerard

I'm against forged parts as well, I guess what I am saying is I understand why they exist - to finish a restoration which at least looks correct.

1) Both my W30s have matching number engines so that's how you can tell they are original but since neither car was owned by me since new how do I really know all the parts are original, I don't - their date codes are correct that's for sure but I can't prove they came on the car can I. One has a replacement radiator, replaced by me long ago before I knew the what the value of a 4-core 1970 Harrison EC code radiator was. D'OH
2) I have documentation for both cars, I should probably dig it out and make copies to have on me but I have them stored away nicely (somewhere!!!??) as with W30s the documentation seems more valuable than the car itself (kind of a shame if you ask me)


Long story about me getting taken.

I got burned myself many years ago. I sent my carburetor to the original Carb Shop in Rancho Cucamunga CA in November. After not hearing from them by January 2nd, I called over and over again only to get no answer. after 6 weeks I finally found out a new owner had taken over the business and the IRS had chased him down, he closed the shop over New Years and ran away with the inventory, I never did get my carb back.

So I called around and folks told me to contact BAP as they have lots of Oldsmobile parts and can get carbs. I called, they said they had a 7040258, when given the price I was cautious as it was no more than a standard 442 carb at the time. I asked if it was matching numbers, was told it was matching numbers. I then looked some more and after months of not finding a replacement I called back, inquired again about the correct numbers and they said yes, then I specifically said "this is not a restamp correct?" which they replied "no, we have a guy we use that has hundreds of carbs just waiting for the correct application." Its now June and I want to enjoy the car, I have no carb so I order it. A week later I get the carb, sure enough 7040258 stamped right on the side - except it looks like Stevie Wonder stamped it, on top of that there is no date stamp or UA factory stamp. I felt I got ripped off. When I called to complain they said "well just return it. I said that's not the point, you deliberately sold me a re-stamped carb when I asked whether it was or not.

Part of the problem is in this hobby is everyone is an expert. I love standing behind people talking about all the know about an Oldsmobile at a show knowing half of what they are saying is wrong. I don't even bother correcting them (unless asked). Then they look at my car and say "do you know you have a reproduction sport wheel?" "You know how I can tell?" and I say "not sure how you can tell but I can tell as I'm the one who bought it." I can careless. I drive my cars. One is in really nice condition, the other one looks like a beater, I have just as much fun in either but some people get caught up making the car look right and sometimes that means needing parts that are reproductions or have been modified to look like a W30 part. And I think in some instances that is ok.

I myself have spent many years looking for odd parts that are used, I seldom pay for NOS unless its cheap but I do like using original parts as often as I can, but that is not always practical, financially, time wise etc.

You know how long it took me to find an original rock screen for the heat tube? Probably a decade, and by then they started to make reproductions. How many people even know that part exists, very few I bet even on this board.

pogo69

.
i am a little curious about this myself. what say you pogo69?[/QUOTE]

pogo says ''no mission from GOD'' no I have ''not been burned''
when you alter a part# it is forgery and yes...you are trying to fool someone or you wouldn't change a number

pogo69

no disrespect but you are not understanding my point about the principle of altering/erasing/restamping,yes the basic argument is the counterfeit part...I think this has turned more into an argument than I would of guessed

charlierogers

i think joe P said it best..... BE AN EDUCATED BUYER. and being a educated buyer you will know that that rare parts are being faked/forged. and sooner or later you are gonna get stung. yea it stinks but most of us have all been there! unfortunatly its part of the hobby and will never go away. its the chances we take when rebuilding or restoring these cars. i have accepted this many years ago. i for one think that it is great some of these rare parts are being repopped. i would hate to be restoring a 70-72 w-30 to concours level only to put rough/cracked original fenderwells back in. how many original w-30 carbs got tossed in the trash after holleys were put on. it would not bother me one bit if i had a original w-30 car with a restamped carb. as long as it was a gm service carb that was built to the exact same specs as olds specified. i know that some people are taking a beating on some rare parts they collected over time but hey maybe some of these repops will bring the original olds parts prices back to a more reasonable price. i mean c,mon $1500 intakes, $2500 oai hoods, $3500++ heads are these guys crooks.......not in my opinion but i think its ludicrous!!! heck regular car guys cant/wont pay these prices. with all the sceptism it seems just about impossible to prove a 70 w-30 unless you are the original owner nowadays.

jensenracing77

I have to agree with Kurt on this. Reproduction parts are one thing but altering numbers is another story. If you have a complete original car other than the carburetor, what is the reason you buy a restamp and not an original? less money don't count on this question because you can not see those numbers at a car show. If it is money you could use a regular 455 carb and be much less than a restamp. The only time the subject of the original numbers on a carb would come up is when you are selling it. If someone ask you at a show because they can't see the numbers you would have to say it is not original if it is a restamp or a non numbers carb. so what is the point? I feel it is fraud.

There is no winning this one on either side. All we can do is be informed on what we are looking at and educate people in the market to buy. It just sucks for the good people that have the real thing.

charlierogers

pogo says ''no mission from GOD'' no I have ''not been burned''


pogo you are one of the lucky ones in not getting burned on a bad car part! me.......not so lucky. but live and learn. i dont think everyones out to screw over people with restamps. they just want there cars to look correct, i dig that. on my restoration that is just about complete i searched far and long for used original and nos pieces and paid thru the nose. i can tell you for a fact that this alone is just about a full time job. not to mention pulling your hair out getting outbid on a nos part you were looking for over a 1 1/2 and some wise guy beats you in the last second {lol}

pogo69

you don't need to tell me about searching long and hard for a part. I looked for 20 years plus to find a part for my car...and in 20 minitues I could of taken a file and restamped two little letters and I would of been done

pogo69

I get it...adding on a pvc boss to make the other parts functional. what is the point of changing the part number date code etc?...if anyone can tell the difference what would be the point then? what am I missing here

oldcutlass

Look pogo69 you have been at this since you found out that Octania makes manifolds back in one of your previous threads, I'll dig it up if you want. It's been eating on you for a while and you felt the need to vent. I understand that, but enough already, I understand your viewpoint as well as the others here. You can beat on this forever and still have differing opinions.

pogo69

no need to dig up any old posts and like I said I am not going to lose sleep over what I believe. you are right...I was brought up to be kind to animals and this horse has been beaten enough...good luck

Boldsmobile

A restamp, number altered does not equal forged or counterfeit.

Counterfeit and forgery include the intent to deceive.

A restamp that is disclosed as such, like a reproduction part , does not include intent to deceive.

How is buying Chris' replicate intake any different than buying a reproduced horn button from Year One? Neither include intent to deceive. Both recreate that which is no longer factory available.

I fail to see the consistency in your point of view.

Lastly you want to ban forged parts. Who is going to put the time and effort into determining if a part is not as implied in the for sale section? It's impossible to enforce. What if i put up a set of box control arms for sale that I boxed to exact details? How is someone going to verify that are real before I'm allowed to post them for sale?

Our websites tend to be self policing when it comes to misleading items for sale.

lshlsh2

I have read and followed this thread for awhile. I see both sides as reasonable. I don't think there will be a winner. It does make me happy that I have a regular ol 71 convertible. Nobody has asked if my 2bl carb is numbers matching.

Larry

stevengerard

Ha, Larry so true - don't get me wrong I feel very fortunate to have a W30, but believe me, usually there comes an overwhelming sense of responsibility when working on it, it took many years of the car not starting before I broke down and put a high torque starter on - blasphemy!!! but I rather drive it than stare at it!

You have the perfect car, a cool looking convertible, with a reliable engine and decent gas mileage - enjoy it

Olds442redberet

So! After reading this thread, I have a dilemma. I am the proud owner of a real 1970 442, but the engine was replaced years back. And with a 350 rocket! How awful is that! So one of the following must apply:

1. Since my car can never be original again, it'll never be worth anything. So I should just hop it up and drive it.

2. The value of the car is equal to the quality of the parts used combined with the quality of the workmanship. So I can build a modern interpretation of a 442 using an LT1 crate motor, vintage air and a modern stereo. This is exactly what I am seeing happening to the Tri-five cars.

3. The value of the car is equal to the quality and authenticity of the parts used combined with the quality of the workmanship. So I should try to find a late sixty's 455 and do my best to make it look authentic, but then I may run the risk of being accused of misrepresenting the car.

4. The car is only worth something if it is rebuilt using date coded parts, to which I neither the time, money, nor inclination to do.

And these questions come up every time some expert starts showing me everything on the car that is incorrect. Sometimes it's frustrating to hear real car guys talk like this. But I have developed a since of humor about all this. I had one individual ask if I was going to restore the car, to which I answered "Nope! I am going to drive it!" And seriously, that's what I plan on doing.

Anyway, excellent thread designed to inspire debate. I love what everyone said and I hold everyone's opinion in high regard.

J-(Chicago)

Probably a blessing in disguise if you want to drive the heck out of it. Just build it right. All of that big block power would be a waste of gas money and tires if you're going to drive it around and enjoy it every summer.

It will still be worth plenty in decent shape. Just not top dollar. If you don't care, I don't either. Have fun!!

You will NEVER EVER get back what $ you put into a customized car. It is special for you and only you. Not others. Some people hate 26" wheels, some people hate 442's with Chevy engines. Most Olds guys hate both. My best advice, is if you plan to customize something like that..... use a base model, and not a 442. My Custom stuff, I do to 80's base models, as to not ruin stuff from the "muscle" car era. Your 442 with another Olds engine in it, isn't that big of a deal. As long as the car is yours, it's your problem. No sweat, right? BUT if you were ever wishing to sell, it is in your best interest not to jimmy it up too badly.

This really only pertains to W-30 cars, W-31 cars, and Hurst Oldsmobiles In my opinion. Those particular vehicles are rare in the sense that GM only made 3000 or so of them every year, and considering how many are probably still in existence after 45 years, may some day be museum pieces, or extremely rare collectors items.

I don't blame you. It sucks to do, and the squeeze wouldn't be worth the juice in your case. If you found the original engine for your car, and had it rebuilt for 6k, It probably wouldn't add 6k to the value of your car.
If I found the original engine for a w30 car with all the correct parts, and had it rebuilt for 6k, it actually WOULD add 6k to the value of the car. Maybe more.

Good for you. Just keep in mind, if the top goes down, the price goes up. Looks like you have a 442 convertible. In your case, it would be wise to keep it all olds if you're entertaining the idea of it retaining it's value during your ownership.

stevengerard

X2 Great responses J!

Bernhard

I like original parts! But there are pepole that buy up original parts,they have more carbs,intakes and W27 diffs than they could ever use. They flip them for big $$$$. So to me if some one makes a quality restamp carb or dist that you can not tell from an original I say job well done. I would like to see more quality reproductions not less it keeps the price down on original parts. As long as they are not sold as original nos. I think all parts should have to come with a GM reproduction cert and be as good or better than original.That way every one could enjoy these great cars.I don't care for the flipers,I don't mind some one making a little off a part that they took the time to pick.


If you took the time to have all original parts on your car that is a job well done! It should not be done for re sale value but for your own enjoyment. This is a hobby that should be done for the fun of it not the re-sale value.

stevengerard

I think that is part of the issue, whether we want it to be because of money or not it is. And the more original parts you have the more valuable the car becomes. So those who spend years finding original parts and being honest about get hurt with the repos, bust as you can tell I'm on the fence about it as I agree with your first part - its too hard and too expensive to find everything.

oldsmobiledave

If I was trying to sell a 425 crankshaft, a 1968 steel crank or some decent aftermarket pistons I sure would be upset about you banning the sale of FORGED parts!...

Kennybill

Just get into 88/98's. Then one doesn't have to worry about "exotic" parts. Mission accomplished. Ken

joe_padavano

I'm still unclear on the definitions of "reproduction" and "counterfeit" in this thread. If The Parts Place really does start making reproduction F heads, as they have promised for years, how is using those different from using another head that has been altered to look like an F head? Neither part is a factory original, uber rare F head.

And while we're talking about someone's definition of "counterfeit", does that apply to Faux-Four-Twos, particularly those of the 1972 variety?

RetroRanger

Wait what, you took a part from another car and will now try to pass it off as an original piece ?? That sounds like exactly what you're ranting against....oh wait you'll inform any prospective buyer of any non original to your car parts...well then what's the point of sourcing original date coded parts in the first place ?

The former is a scam and fraud the latter sounds like a waste of time and resources.

OF course I'm playing the devils advocate here, it's your car you can do what you like. And to that point everyone has an opinion, you may find not everyone agrees w your opinion, that's ok, but it certainly does not give you the right to crap on their for sale thread....

Here's my opinion $1000 distributors don't really promote the hobby at all, but rather promote exclusivity and as a result decrease the popularity.

If your real beef is I spent all my money on a car and now I can't recoupe half of it then just say it

Octania

"If it were up to me anyone wanting to sell restamped, forged, number-altered parts would not be allowed... I am very clear on what I mean. "

Well, one option of course is to start up your own Oldsmobile Space in the interwebs and set all your own rules. You can ban folks that talk politics and ban folks that talk religion and ban folks that offer restamped or modified parts.

Let me know how that works out for you.

As for the argument that sellers of altered parts will never divulge thus, nor can folks in the future discern the part as altered...

I don't see how that applies to the heads and intakes I fabricate. They are ALWAYS advertised with a complete description, including what they used to be, what they are now, and how they got that way:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/REPLICA-68-7...b2728e&vxp=mtr

Each one has features or imperfections that only a very unskilled onlooker would overlook. Side by side with a real part, the differences are obvious. They are generally marked with my ID so I know each and every one ever made. Sometimes that mark is underside or only visible when not installed. Sometimes VERY well hidden. Heads have the factory final 3 digits intact underside also.

The reason they exist, of course, is so that upon a CURSORY inspection, like at the local drive-in, with the General Public, it _LOOKS_ like it should.... and e.g. with the '69 H/O 405233 intake, it has the proper fitment provisions. One has to presume, as with ALL such transactions, in the event of a subsequent sale of any car or part, the buyer will execute due diligence in verifying that all crucial components are present and of factory origin, or priced accordingly if otherwise. Would you buy a 2-bbl intake if the seller said it was a W30 part?

Nobody is getting deceived, ripped, or hosed from _my_ replica pieces... now or after numerous future owners. This "fraud" that is allegedly the only possible reason to alter a casting ID... is not even possible.

Where does the "P" head fall, then? Altered "B" - but altered to a casting that never existed! [Seen on epay some years ago, not mine]

"Be an educated buyer" - so true!
I had "faux" H heads at Homecoming some time back, $600 I think.... Sign said "FAUX" H heads. One possible buy looked and poked and asked this and that, it finally became clear that the 90% off price meant NOT REAL... the word "faux" was lost on him.

ggoudas

Thanks I needed that Hehehe

I have practically the same thing a 67442 with no documentation. It has been apart for too long and I am itchy to get it back together. I am not worried what I have to do and will not be looking to sell or tell lies. I will try to get the correct stuff, I did find a 67 400 engine $500 hope it is buildable. If I cannot get everything I will have to listen to the critics at a local show but I don't care, at least for now. We will see when it is happening to me at the time.

I was wondering what would happen if someone found some original GM castings for say the F heads. If they started producing them what would they be classified as?

Another thing while I am at it. How do you know If anything is Origional on a car? I know some years the engine transmission has numbers that match documentation but what about other things? Who knows what happen over the years.
My problem is everytime someone makes a point I see it and say yea!
Then I read the next guys 2 cents and say Yea again!

Lots of good stuff bottom line is
A fake is a fake
A fake trailor queen is a Shame!

stevengerard

The only thing that has VIN numbers on my car (that I know of) is the dashboard main VIN, the engine, the trans and the frame. Literally everything else could have been replaced at one point or another. The date codes all make sense but who knows. And even if it was my car since new, you'd have to trust me that it was all original.

allyolds68

Joe talked a little about it above when he mentioned The Parts Place reproducing rare heads so what you're talking about is obviously in the works anyway. When they do they'll probably put poor guys like Chris out of business.

I've personally looked into reproducing tri-carb manifolds. With technology like point scanners and and 3D printers how long do you think it's going to be before we can produce EXACT copies of anything, using any materials. Patents have expired on most of this stuff long ago. (the friggen Chinese and others are doing it on stuff that IS patented). In ten years they'll be able to reproduce one-offs of ANYTHING for reasonable cost. You can gripe all you want about it not being fair but you're not going to stop it. It is difficult, if not impossible, to police advances in global technology. As long as this stuff is being represented as a reproduction it's legal and ethical. Parts suppliers have been doing it forever, they're just doing it better now. What makes them any better than what Chris does, because they're a "business"? What I think you'll see to combat fraud in the future are advances in technology for determining original from misrepresented reproduced parts (if that's important to you)

.

jensenracing77

That is the problem, there is no definition that will ever cover it outside the law. You can't change the VIN, outside that it is all legal as long as you are not representing it as original to someone that is purchasing it. At the end of the day all we are doing is bickering about something that can not change.

Just wait till they make a W-27 reproduction. The $8000 rear ends will become $5000 rear ends over night. Good or bad, there is no question that reproduction brings down the price of the hobby. Also good or bad, I see restamps not affect the price of original number parts any at all.

ah64pilot

So you wake up one day and realize you've got a killer headache. You go to the doctor and he tells you it's a tumor the size of a baseball in your head...he has to operate right away or you'll die. You call your family and tell them the news. They show up to support you but alas, you didn't survive the surgery.

Now you've got two kids sorting through your possessions and they come to your 1969 Hurst Olds. One of them wants to sell it, but the other thinks it's a keepsake to remember you by. So they make an agreement and the sentimental son keeps it.

As he's driving it home BAM!!! a semi smacks into the side of it and kills him instantly. The car is a total loss and is crushed in the scrap yard.

Now, the only surviving family member...the other son, wants to build a tribute to his father and brother. He decides to recreate the 1969 Hurst Olds that his father owned, and that his brother died in. But, where does he find the parts? Surely he can't reuse parts from the old car because it was crushed. So what does he do? He turns to the aftermarket...

Lessons:
1. Don't wake up with a baseball size tumor in your head.
2. Don't drive a 1969 Hurst Olds home, have it towed.
3. In the end, it's just a damn car. Build it how you want, sell it for what you want, and if a jackass is uneducated enough or dumb enough to buy it from you then, well, that's their problem. Don't police me, and I won't police you

P.S. This is sort of a joke so don't get your panties in a bunch

Bernhard

There was a guy in Cal that had 5 W27 diffs, he did not even have a car. Total BS Parts flipper/dick head. I hope offical GM repo parts flood the market and bring down the price. This is a hobby that is all about having fun with very cool cars and saving a part of car history.Like I said before I don't mind a guy making a little off a part but there is a piont were you turn into a douche

jensenracing77

This is off topic but where is that point? This is another grey area like restamps. There is a WELL known Olds parts seller that gets a bad rap for this very thing at times (even by me). I literally seen him in 2009 buy a set of NOS 70 headlight bezels for $400. He sold them to a guy later that day for $420. I overheard people calling him names because he was so stupid on his prices... they had no idea that he paid $400 for them. If the market said it is worth $XXX is the person so bad for selling it for that or is the guy bad for paying that much. If i ask $8000 for my W-27, am i a Jerk? what if i was offered $8000 and took it... should i say no that is to much? The market says what something is worth, not the seller.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand what you are saying about some people using the hobby for big money. I just like people to understand that some sellers that appear as bad may not be. There may be more to the story.

Bernhard

Its simple if he re sold them for $20 profit I have no problem. If you have one W 27 and you sell it for $8000 fine but if you go around buying up all the hard to find parts just to flip your just taking from the hobby and your a flipping douche. If your in it for the hobby you will be on the plus side some times and the negative some times and there is a balance.

Aceshigh

Valid concern.

Proposed solution.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...rotection.html

joe_padavano

Sorry, but like it or not this is called capitalism. You don't have to like it, but the alternative (socialism) has already been proven not to work.

And that's the end of my political comments in this thread...

oldcutlass

x2

stevengerard

Yep I don't like it either and that's why I really appreciate 99% of the folks on here as they are very fair with what they have and sell. But unfortunately its no different in any industry. Think about those with cash right now buying houses of those less fortunate then them right from under them, or apartment buildings or Buffet buying Heinz, those with the means can take advantage of opportunities.

oldcutlass

Just not going here....

allyolds68

Wow....

I guess I need to find a new country to live in if this is a bad thing......

jaunty75

That was my thought! There's nothing illegal or unethical about buying a house in foreclosure or buying a distressed apartment building, fixing it up, and reselling it or Warren Buffet buying the Heinz company. Heck, American Airlines and US Air just merged. All kinds of things go on every day in our economy. That's the way it is.

How this has anything to do with counterfeit car parts is beyond me!

stevengerard

Did I say it was a bad thing? Nope, its the reality, and that is why it happens. I don't look at it as Buffet is bad, I look at it as he is a brilliant man with hard work, luck, smarts and now money on his side and at his age still takes advantage of it - good for him.

if I could afford to buy all the Olds parts I have seen for sale I would have bought many but I also can't afford the space to store them in, not where I live. But again there are times on this site where I pass up deals. Like just today where I saw the speedminder speedometer for sale the instant it was posted. That's a great price. I could have bought it and then gone to the swap meet coming up, flip it for 50 or 100 more. But I guess I look at this site as a resource and there are others on here who could really use it.