pogo69

In the interest of the classic oldsmobile I would vote that any existing part that has been altered or forged be banned from being sold...altered meaning a part with a given number erased,modified,altered to take on a different number

J-(Chicago)

I don't like it either, but there is no such way to create a police force on a free website to regulate these matters.

pogo69

I think website administrators would have such authority to ban counterfeit parts.

allyolds68

I think as long as you identify it as such there's no problem selling things like that at all. The problem usually comes down the line when it's been bought and sold a few times and the seller may or may not know the part is real or not. Octania sells replica 69 H/O intakes. If you know what you're looking for you can tell it's a replica.

If you have a specific issue with someone ripping you off you should contact the police

GAOldsman

My sentiments exactly Mike. And as always buyer beware on any and all transactions.

Indy_68_S

How would they enforce it ? Personally examine each and every part that's offered ?

As long as the seller discloses that the part has been altered or is not orginal, I don't see a problem. (although this practice can lead to the situation allyolds68 describes above..)

This site does a pretty good job of policing itself. Dishonest sellers are outed and the good ones are lauded...

stevengerard

its a tough call, some of these parts are now either very hard to come by or are extremely expensive so the repos or tweaked parts make sense. I have a repo W30 intake still sitting in a box just in case mine warps or cracks etc. Not sure I could afford to buy a used one now-a-days with the full "OLDSMOBILE" on it as those are getting rarer and rarer.

I think this thread is in response to the restamped carb, many many people buy those to "finish" their car. The seller gives a lot of honest info about it. I bought one myself at one time as before the internet you couldn't find W30 parts, then all of a sudden there were a ton around and all worth 4 times as much.

I always bring up the duesenberg frame found on a farm, based on that frame number a body was rebuilt, now they have a "rare" duesenberg, or do they. Well for the money it sold for it is. What about the Shelby Cobra body found in a storage locker, it has its own unique VIN but it needed everything else. I'm sure that will go for a ton as soon as its complete. I'm not for forgeries but as an owner of a rare car I know how hard it is to get these parts. Many of us paid less for our cars than some of these parts are going for now.

pogo69

Sure .... Theres nothing wrong with someone buying a rare part or car with a forged number on it....hell i think production numbers for original w-30's should increase every year

J-(Chicago)

Since you have both pieces at hand, let me ask this.......is there a noticeable difference between the 2? I would think so. I highly doubt those castings could be duplicated to the tee. Luckily, for some people, the intakes date codes are on the underside in the valley.

Eightupman

Well, based on this definition, ported and polished heads, turned crankshafts, and 403 motors with 350 heads should be banned as well.

You are also asking every repro part in every catalog be banned for sale. None of the chinesum parts have original part numbers on them.

You are asking an impossible task.

Bottom line is "Buyer beware"

pogo69

[QUOTE=Eightupman;508077]Well, based on this definition, ported and polished heads, turned crankshafts, and 403 motors with 350 heads should be banned as well.

Bottom line is "Buyer beware"

I agree with one thing you said '' buyer beware''. I guess if its a perfect forgery you dont have to beware though no difference in your original part and a clone forgery

jaunty75

I don't think we should stop with "forged" parts. I think we should ban nuclear weapons, and, while we're at it, cloudy days.

stevengerard

I didn't say that - lets just say your manifold on your car cracks or the wing, what would you do?

stevengerard

From 5 feet away no difference at all. Side-by-side, the font for the numbers of the firing order are different and the snowflake is a bit different. The texture is a bit different too but again that would not be noticed. Only real difference as you mentioned is the stamp on the bottom.

pogo69

you dont get it, I am talking about forging a part with a number and changing it to a part with a greater value. If i started restamping distributors say 100 or so with the correct number and date code selling them cheap lets say for your w-30 car then those with original distributors in the car would be screwed. I am not talking about repo parts or authorized parts

GAOldsman

Only if you do not disclose the fact that you changed part #'s and try to deceive potential buyers by trying to pass it off as the real deal. Same thing goes with taking a plain jane Cutlass or 442 (pre '72 of course) and trying to pass it off as a real W30 by bolting the right parts on it and then listing it as a W30 to unsuspecting buyers. Then either of these two examples is fraud and illegal in all 50 states. Buyer beware goes with anything and everything in everyday life. I see no problem with knowingly buying a re-numbered part if that is what you choose to do.

pogo69

I seem to stand alone on this issue...i guess there are a lot of fake parts on cars here

J-(Chicago)

I'm sure there are. People love to cheat. They look at the crossword puzzle answers when they get frustrated because it's easier than working harder and reading more. I can't do anything to make these people better, and more honest souls however.

I think these phoney parts would be just fine for "tribute" or "wannabe clone" cars......but I also think that if a clone car has a LEGIT w30 or h/o part on them, they should have to forfeit it to the rightful car. Makes me sick when a real w30 item is on a clone.

Octania

Well..... I may be somewhat biased, but:

Suppose you have a real '69 H/O and it's missing the intake? Where are you to get one? Are you supposed to do w/o... or use an ordinary intake and ONE PCV. No. To be CORRECT in form and function, it must have the divorced choke and PCV in the intake. Thus the demand, thus the supply.

Ditto for a '71 W30.... Got H heads? Of course not. Where are you going to get some? That's right, there are NONE for sale.

Now, I do a pretty good job, viewed from 5 ft away, when you pop the hood... but on close inspection, the changes are obvious... so no one familiar with Olds details is going to miss the fact that they are replicas. See other thread here, with photos.

Furthermore I have ALWAYS fully divulged, repeatedly, exactly what each part began life as, and what it now looks like- contrary to the less than truthful rumors circulated by certain vendors a while back.

OTOH, when one advertises oh say a distributor on oh say epay, with a certain number, having been restamped, then provides evasive bullshed answers when DIRECTLY questioned on the nature of the beast... well, they deserve the negative feedback they get then, eh? And that reputation follows them. Even when they try to convince the buyer to undo the NFB and refund the money and say "keep the [useless POS] distributor."

There's preserving the heritage thru the execution of proper replacement parts, offered honeslty and above board, then there is shady deceitful peddlign of fakes while pretending they are factory issue.

Are we to believe that if the W43 Hemi were reproduced, no one would be interested, because it's not factory issue?

BULLSHED.

I'll take one.

Bernhard

I have seen a 69 442 W30 rebuilt from the firewall and roof is that a real 442 W30 built by GM. I have built cars were I built more of the car on the shop floor than GM of Ford did at the factory. To me these cars are one big patch,could you tell no. I would rather have a re body car that was built on the factory floor with all the right parts. In a perfect world there wood be no repop parts. I want ram air on my 69 4442 will I pay for the real thing no way two much money to part with. As long as pepole do not pass the parts off as the real deal I have no problem with them. Same goes for a rebody or a car that was built from a roof and cowl,there not original they are rebuilt. There is nothing wrong with rebuilt cars if they are done right, the problem is a lot are not built right.

joe_padavano

Sorry, but you're just figuring this out now? Ever looked at the cars for sale at BJ?

And I'm not sure what you mean by "counterfeit parts". Is a repro W-30 intake counterfeit or reproduction? If you want to take a stand, how about repro build sheets?

pogo69

[QUOTE=joe_padavano;508330]Sorry, but you're just figuring this out now? Ever looked at the cars for sale at BJ?

And I'm not sure what you mean by "counterfeit parts". Is a repro W-30 intake counterfeit or reproduction? If you want to take a stand, how about repro build sheets?[/Q

I think my example of restamping worthless distributors or carbs with a valuable part and date number explains ''counterfeit'' the person or people with the originals are the ones getting screwed

Oldsmaniac

One of the problems arise when the car or part changes owners a few times and "somehow" info is lost in translation. This coincidentally happens to make the value rise. I subscribe to "let the buyer beware" school of thought for the most part but a restamp should be a no-no and repro parts should be distinguishable from original. Just my 2 cents.

stevengerard

I do get it and I actually mostly agree with you. I guess I just understand the dilemma. How many H/Os or W30s have all their original parts, I am fortunate enough to have purchased my convertible so long ago it had all its parts and was loaded, I knew what I was looking for and I knew it was an incredible hidden gem that others most likely looked past because of a terrible paint job and a smoking engine. But without paying big bucks, now a days it is very, very difficult to find a W30 with all its parts (let alone documentation), especially with the original carb and/or distributor.

My car is insured enough to replace parts with factory pieces but not everyone can afford that. And please don't say if they can afford a W30 they can afford the insurance - some of us bought our cars a long time ago. My point is if the hood got crushed many would just buy a 500 repo - from 10 feet away it looks fine, is that any different then buying a carb that has been re-stamped to at least "look" like a W30.

The issue is, even if the present owner is honest about it by the next owner it becomes "original" and I guess with W30s that is why it is so important to have paperwork. I for one rather buy a W30 with some parts missing and paperwork than buying one with all the parts and no paperwork.

Back to the repo W30 manifold, once mounted to the engine 98% of people, including those on this board, will not be able to tell the difference without taking it off to see it doesn't have the date stamp on the bottom - to me that isn't any different then using a re-stamped carb.

EDIT: Though I agree even more with you on "forgery vs reproduction" but again once the part is on the car the manifold may all of a sudden become real.

J-(Chicago)

Nobody is getting screwed. They are all 500 dollar hunks of scrap steel in this lifetime, and they are non existent when you're dead. I wish I would have sold off my stuff when the market was ridiculously high. I kept this crap out of love and pride however and screwed MYSELF.

The Money thing is what everyone gets caught up in. It's either....

"Boo freakin hoo, I can't sell my car for a million dollars, and now these repops are ruining my life."

Or, "I can't get a million dollars for this base model heap o **** so I'll fake it and get rich off of an idiot."

Both types can burn in hell. Sorry pal.

I like the way Brian Trick runs his W-30s, because he's not afraid to race them, and doesn't sit and polish the hubcaps all day.

As you can see, there are several w30 guys in this thread, and every one is a bit different. I appreciate your input as well and adding diversity to the group.

oldcutlass

There are such a small percentage of counterfit parts vs genuine and repro's that I don't see this as a major problem. If you have a documented car it is worth "x" amount vs a clone, resto-mod, etc...

pogo69

OK Steven...let me try this angle with you. someone asks you to prove your carb and distributor even engine are original to your w-30 convert. you cant prove it. If someone forges the underside of that manifold how can you tell? someone now has the same manifold as yours at a fraction of the price

Indy_68_S

...so ??

Is your concern that repros drive down the value of original parts ?

wmachine

You are not alone, trust me. But you will be quite outnumbered by this (and most) forums. No, they don't get it. Which is to the delight of counterfitters. Of course there is nothing wrong with reproduction parts. We know that original parts are worth more, thus the attempts to pass off parts as original that are not. And it is *not* just about the value. But again, don't expect much understanding there.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. There is one and one reason only to alter numbers: FRAUD. There are those that naively think that "full disclosure" somehow fixes the problem, but it doesn't. Far from it. Does not take into account liars and bad memory, for starters.
The problem is the guys that have original cars/parts are outnumbered by by those that would eat your lunch. And the opinions of those with nothing to lose don't help the situation.

pogo69

unfortunatly there is no denying the fact certain cars have become extremly valuable and suspect to forgery, however when I see a rare car now and want to appreciate it for how it came from the factory and be able to say ''wow thats how it looked when it rolled off the line'' I have to beware that that car may be an illusion (looks authentic but who know's)

pogo69

I appreciate your comment and agree that this thinking is in the best interest of the enjoyment of the classic oldsmobile. From a preservation standpoint

jaunty75

I think a little clarification is in order here as the focus of this thread has changed.

No one disagrees with the notion that counterfeit parts or "forged" parts are bad and should be discouraged and that people selling them should be shunned.

But what the OP originally requested in his first post, although he's now changed that post, and what he still has in his second post ("I think website administrators would have such authority to ban counterfeit parts"), was that the administrators of this site somehow be given the responsibility of poring through "parts for sale" or similar postings and requiring the seller to somehow verify that the part was not counterfeit.

This struck many people, including me, as a somewhat ridiculous idea. How on earth are administrators supposed to do this? Make every seller post a photo of the part showing a close-up of the stamped-on part number and/or the original box? Make the seller post a "certificate of authenticity" of some kind? There's no a chance in hell of this ever happening, and it shouldn't fall to the administrators to be required to do this kind of policing.

Hence my sarcastic "let's wish for no more cloudy days, too" posting above. We have about as much chance of accomplishing this as well.

There is no way to do this in a forum like this. As has been pointed out, it is up to buyers to verify with whom their dealing, and if they come across a bad apple, post the info here so the rest of us know not to deal with that person. This is essentially the way it's always been stretching all the way back to the first replacement car part ever sold, and it's about as good as it's ever going to get.

J-(Chicago)

Truer words have never been spoken.

pogo69

I have not changed anything in my post...if it were up to me anyone wanting to sell restamped, forged, number-altered parts would not be allowed... I am very clear on what I mean.

J-(Chicago)

I understand him loud and clear, jaunty. And I don't think he is out of line with his opinion. However, there is never going to be a division of NCIC with officers dedicated to the eradication of such items.

Hell, we're lucky that there hasn't been a country wide ban on all cars with 8 cylinders the way that people think nowadays.

jaunty75

First, you DID change your first post. It says so right under it, and I recall that your first post was asking for administrators to take action just like your second post does.

Second, as I said, no one disagrees with your basic point. You're preaching to the choir here.

Of course forged parts should not be allowed to be sold. But how are you going to stop this? No one selling such a part is going to advertise the fact. The administrators can only take action if they hear through some kind of back-channel means that someone is selling bad parts and remove them from the site, but there's no way to screen "parts for sale" postings in a systematic way before the posting goes up. It's a fact of life.


I've kind of wondered from the start what prompted this thread from you in the first place. Did you recently get burned by someone selling what was claimed to be an authentic part only to find out later that it wasn't? Or, like Jake and Elwood, are you just on some kind of mission from God?

jaunty75

I never said his basic point, that counterfeit parts are bad, was out of line. What I said was out of line was his idea that the administrators police this. It's just not a realistic idea.

pogo69

I am not out to make enemies here.I just think it is an important issue that needs to be deeply thought about. I will not lose any sleep knowing someone is producing parts believing they are doing the right thing, but I look at the flip side of that and the consequences of that over time.

jaunty75

I think that if your opinion is that counterfeit parts are bad for the hobby and that those who make and sell them should be found out and identified for what they are, you will not make too many enemies.

charlierogers

I've kind of wondered from the start what prompted this thread from you in the first place. Did you recently get burned by someone selling what was claimed to be an authentic part only to find out later that it wasn't? Or, like Jake and Elwood, are you just on some kind of mission from God? [/QUOTE]
.
i am a little curious about this myself. what say you pogo69?