Olds_71_442

Why would something like that bother you? If the person owning the clone could find the part before the person with the real w30 had the opportunity, why should they give up their part?

If someone wants to spend big money on a rust bucket, just because it is a real w30 or a real H/O, and they have a hard time finding parts for it, that's their stupidity.

I would much rather buy a decent shaped Cutlass S and make it look like a w30 than pay even more for a rust bucket real w30 or (god forbid) spend $150,000+ on a very good shaped w30.

stevengerard

Says the man with one of the coolest W30s every made!!!! (in my opinion)

I agree with you though.

Olds_71_442

Yep......not too many came with a 350!

I love my car, though. Instead of having a dog or cat, I have an Oldsmobile.

stevengerard

yeah, I just love that 71 lime green, your car is awesome looking

Bernhard

Nothing wrong with this the market was over bought just like the stock market.

The wise are cashing in.

I think the market being hit as hard as it was might be a very good thing.
The person that want's to work hard and save can buy a house and pay it off if the job's are there.

Just like the housing market the car market is over bought,

They made money to cheep, and drove the price of houses and cars up past there real value.

Bernhard

X2 more of the car was built by GM
Like I said in my other post I built more of the car on the shop floor than GM or Ford did.

Bernhard

I like capitalism but what we have to day is pure greed how much can I take you for.Look what the stock market and banks did to the unsuspecting people. Look at all the US jobs shipped off shore to max out profit,companys that were built by the citizens.Companies need to make profit I get it. With out profit no company no jobs.

I will not buy from a flipper I like my money to much. I can't wate till they repop every part of the W cars then we all can enjoy a W car at a fair price free from the flipper man.

This is my oppion I love free speech.

J-(Chicago)

Next time you lose your wallet, think about that same question.

Why should a person who found your wallet bother returning it to you when they beat you to it?

It obviously doesn't belong to them, but it fits in their pocket the same as yours I suppose.

My answer to your question is......because It's the right thing to do.


I don't think every part should be returned to every car ever made to make them all original again, but I do make exceptions for the very special ones.

Bernhard

If I found a wallet I would return it.
Because it is the right thing to do,I have in the past and will in the future.
2. I see no problem in a person buying a clean straight std 442 or cutlass and buying all original parts and building them selves a W30 or W31 as long as they do not sell it as the real deal.
If you do it right and buy one out of the Lan plant you can build one that is even closer to the real thing.Start with a cutlass S out of the LAN plant for a W31 and a 442 for a W30 or Hurst Olds. Start with a rust free straight car and you will have one very nice Clone that anyone would be happy with.
The next step would be to buy a basket-case and rebody. As long as you state this when you sell the car, I would put it in writing and make the buyer sign it.

coppercutlass

I will only say this . Letter and numbers dont mean a damn thing to me unless im playing poker. Clone this clone that matching numbers this etc etc. they are just cars. But considering we live a world of supply and demand it's the nature of the beast there will be fakes.

Boldsmobile

The guys opposed to reproduction parts - notice I don't say counterfeit - what brand cotton swab, facial tissue do you buy? What brand ibuprofen? How about your prescriptions? Alway name brand? Never generic?

jensenracing77

I don't think anyone is opposed to reproduction parts. I think we are running in circles now. It is back to the definition between reproduction and altering numbers. I need an upper radiator hose for a 62 Jetfire. There is no used, original, or reproduction of this hose to be found anywhere. I would buy a reproduced one in a second if they would make one.

allyolds68

So what you're saying is the radiator hose is rarer than F heads. So if someone (or company) came along and found a new radiator hose (or maybe an existing reproduction hose) perhaps a little longer but with basically the same bends and he trimmed the ends to make it exact, altered the numbers to make them correct and sold them as a "reproduction", you wouldn't have a problem with that but if the Parts Place or anyone else reproduces F heads that's wrong because you can still find originals out there?

jensenracing77

Nope

Alter an E and make an F
Alter a 0251 and make a 0256
Grind off the numbers of the block and stamp other numbers in them

I don't agree with this.

Boldsmobile

The is no difference up until the point of intent to deceive.

TK-65

who cares.

59-59-59

What he said

pogo69

bingo!! that's my point

coppercutlass

It's all part of the hustle. If you don't know what you are buying that's your fault. Part of being a consumer is being educated.

Octania

Alter an E and make an F
Alter a 0251 and make a 0256
Grind off the numbers of the block and stamp other numbers in them

I don't agree with this.
====================
A Cutlass that came to me with an incorrect 455 and 100 other more serious flaws ended up modified.

When it left, the heads, which used to say J or C or whatnot, sported a "5" as proper for a '68-9 350. The block said "395558-2" also, with no rib. The block's VIN stamp was removed and then the car's numbers were stamped in- for the original purpose- so that if the car gets stolen, and the pieces separated, there is a way to prove that the engine belongs to that car. Whatever car used to belong to that engine is long since dead and buried.

Sort of the opposite direction there, making BB parts look like common SB parts, which the car would have come with. Oh damn 8 buyers later the new owner gets "burned" because they have a 425 and not the 350 they thought it was. Wait, that's not considered a bad thing at all.

Meanwhile, the owner has a nice car with a VERY strong "350" engine.

Similarly, with the frame, which had to be replaced... the original VIN derivative was x'd out, and the car's correct information stamped in. Now that frame is proper and correct for that car body/VIN. The VIN derivative was also stamped in a non-factory but more visible location. The more the merrier, right? Mr. Thief sees the obvious one and removes it... still busted, due to the not so obvious one.

SO, the motivation for all these particular mods was to make the car LOOK like it should, and preserve and enhance the ability of investigators to figure out which parts go together in the event of a future theft of the vehicle. And, simply because it can be done. Like any other automotive customization.

by turning a D and F mismatched set of heads into J castings for a smogger era Delta.... I can help you lucky few with real D and F heads now have "more valuable" parts! [more rare]

Boldsmobile

Non original parts on your car?

Olds_71_442

Thanks man. I liked looking at the pictures of your car in the body shop. For some reason, there's nothing that looks better than a car with a fresh coat of paint on it. And that is a beautiful blue.

Olds_71_442

The person selling the parts didn't lose anything. They sold it for profit to the first person who was willing to meet their price. There is no comparison between losing a wallet and buying parts for muscle cars. Finding the parts first is all a part of the game.

I say this because my Cutlass S has a real OAI hood, while the original 442 has a hood from one of the aftermarket guys because he couldn't be arsed to get someone to fix it correctly. If anyone told me I should give it back because it's the right thing to do, they'd be wise not to do it to my face.

Olds_71_442

Exactly! And that's why people who don't know the ins and outs of a particular car should never try to buy a car that is numbers matching because more than likely, they will get burned.

I will admit, I don't know the ins and outs of these cars. But even if I was rolling in money, I still wouldn't spend top dollar on a car because it is rare. It's just a car. I'm just as happy with my cloned Cutlass S as I would be if I found a real W30 in a barn and got if for almost nothing.

joe_padavano

Help me understand.

Building a "W-30" with repro F heads would be acceptable to you?

Once again, the problem isn't making look-alike parts. The problem is intent to deceive. If someone turned E heads into F heads and sold them for $200 for the pair, with full disclosure, so what? If instead this person sells them for $4000 a pair, then that's intent to defraud.

And yeah, the person who buys them for $200 and turns around and sells them for $4000 is also defrauding, but how is that any different than buying a repro part and selling it as an original? The problem isn't the parts, it's the unscrupulous people. Personally, I'll turn my E heads into F heads and have those ported for use on my W-30 before I hack up the original F castings that I have.

To be honest, however, I have no problem separating an idiot from his money. If someone is too lazy (or too stupid) to do his homework before laying out hard earned cash, then too bad.

wmachine

I won't answer for Eric, but I will for me. (though I think we're seeing things the same way)
Yes, the problem *is* making "look"alike parts. *Exact* lookalike parts. Almost all reproduction parts are not *exact* and can be distinguished from the originals. Reproductions can have the "look", form, and function of originals without being exact (meaning indistinguishable from an original).
Any talk of "intent" and "full disclosure" may be noble thoughts, but end up being useless in the real world. The part itself doesn't know what that means. Unless the the "disclosure" is stamped on the head, what good is that?
And likewise, being a "knowledgeable/informed/etc buyer" and "buyer beware" advice in not the answer when a repop or altered numbered part is *exactly* like an original.
Vintage Hemi blocks are being recast now. And they are being cast with features that intentionally distinguish them from original blocks. That is the way to do it if you want to help preserve the integrity of vintage cars.
(And I haven't even addressed the absurdity, counterproductive, and unethical practice of changing/altering/adding a part number or identification of a part that is not even the correct part)

2blu442

OK... we've left the original topic of this post long ago. To address that, I don't think we're in a position to ban anybody from posting an item for sale that clearly states, RESTAMP, REPRODUCTION, FABRICATION, etc. etc. If you don't want to buy one of these items don't buy it. But also don't flame the seller. It's not appropriate to bash other member because you disagree with them, period.

Should there be restamped, reproduction, fabricated parts in the world? We all have an opinion on that and most of us feel strongly about our opinions. Many people have stated their opinions here and responded to other members when they disagreed with them. Thank you to all for being respectful and allowing others to disagree with you. Are we done here yet? Has this thread run is course? Can we respectfully agree to disagree and get back to focusing on what we do share in common, this hobby of playing with our Oldsmobiles?

J-(Chicago)

I seem to hold w30 cars in a higher regard than yourself. That is fine by me, as you are free to think and do as you please, and set your own moral code during your stay on this planet. Nobody is calling anyone a thief, so don't take it personally. There are a ton of great cars and owners in this thread. I was merely sharing my thought process about certain situations.

1970-W30

I think this thread has run its course, lets not ban forged parts, because next thing you know somebody else will want to ban cast parts also, then extruded parts, then molded parts etc, etc, who knows where it would end..........

pogo69

[QUOTE=2blu442;510038]OK... we've left the original topic of this post long ago. To address that, I don't think we're in a position to ban anybody from posting an item for sale that clearly states, RESTAMP, REPRODUCTION, FABRICATION, etc. etc. If you don't want to buy one of these items don't buy it. But also don't flame the seller. It's not appropriate to bash other member because you disagree with them, period.

Should there be restamped, reproduction, fabricated parts in the world? We all have an opinion on that and most of us feel strongly about our opinions. Many people have stated their opinions here and responded to other members when they disagreed with them. Thank you to all for being respectful and allowing others to disagree with you. Are we done here yet? Has this thread run is course? Can we respectfully agree to disagree and get back to focusing on what we do share in common, this hobby of playing with our

As you mention above I will correct you, I never suggested that a poster be banned. It seems that the status quo is alway's easier to maintain rather than integrity. New interest in these cars will become more difficult...a new enthusiest just buying a car that was sold a few times over,finding out his car is just a forgery. Oh well buyer beware. Dont be surprised if some of your cars go up for sale you are prepared to pull the engine and dissassemble the entire car so it can be examined. For those that do not have a valuable car one poster pretty much called how this post would play out and yes the lunch bell has rung

aliensatemybuick

I'd be impressed if those restamping parts like distributors, carbs and the like actually made the appropriate internal changes that made them unique (advance curves, jetting, etc etc). Then at least you'd know the part would perform like it should. But of course that's not the point, is it?

The POINT is to eventually separate some poor fool from his money, and as much of it as possible. That Is the inevitable end result, since there is no "provenence" for fakery (like someone is going to preserve documentation of what was faked for future owners).

coppercutlass

I wonder how you guys feel about re paints techincally resto's should not have clear coat base coat or urethane paint is this a form of forgery since you are reproducing the original paint and scheme with a diffrent product ?

pogo69

If you mixed up a batch of paint and painted the car and i bought it as an original paint I would have a problem
. The seller or maker of fake forge is always in a win win situation they are saying its fake and a forgery, When the part or car car gets circulated and memories cloud and become selective ...

coppercutlass

Thats just the nature of the beast being able to tell the diffrence between a fake and a real one. Just like forged id's forged money when there is a demand there will coppies plain and simple. banning them wont do much. It's like priceless art. can you afford the mona lisa. Chances are not but you sure can find a fake on ebay and hang it on the wall can you call it real "no". Most educated people will know it's obviously fake. Now here is where this plays out. can you afford the rare and hard to find intake for your engine . You might but what if it's through the roof on price., now lets sey a fellow has one that is a forging of the real deal looks legit and to most people they cant tell the diffrence. It just makes sense to go that route. If you sell the car and can pass it off as real more power to you becasue you didnt let the one missing link drag your price down by adding an edelbrock intake to the mix. Knowledge is a powerful thing specially when it comes to things like this. My question is . Can you really call it a fake if the part is reproduced so good that even purist could not know the diffrence. Im sorry but if im trying to sell my consourse restoration and lets say a few parts where hard to find or over priced but with a little time we forged the right numbers to not make it look cobbled together ., whats wrong with that if someone buys it why would you tell someone " well we could not find the right heads so we just made the right marks" common sense's say's no dont do that we need to make money" which is the way i see it. personaly to me a car is original once and it's only worth what you are willing to pay or risk on te line to get what you need. So maybe you need to put that certain letter on those heads to make you happy is it really such a crime to not let the next owner know you did that. if someone buys it chnaces are it will not be taken appart for a long time. this is the other aspect i see of this thread not just selling forged parts.

wmachine

There is no amount of knowledge in the world that would justify asking that question let alone answering it.
Yikes! Now fraud is a question of quality.

coppercutlass

I'm just saying that as a hypethetical . I can appreciate and w-30 442 w31 etc for what it is pedigree to me means nothing. I just think it's a bit much to just flat out say ban the sale of forged items. So you mean to tell me the guy bulding his w30 should wait to get the right heads to build his dream car when putting that little letter could make a diffrence and cost less time and money. That's the way I see it. Buying forged items maybe a means to an end for someone.

wmachine

You appear to miss the point of what the OP (and I) have been saying. Which is why this thread is going in circles. Nothing wrong with reproduction parts. Never said there was. The issue and objection is altering/adding/restamping and otherwise identifying a part as an original part that it isn't.
Has nothing to do with keeping anyone from doing anything other than trying to rip you off!

coppercutlass

What I'm getting at. Is let's say your engine needs a set of d heads to be dead nuts. You find a set of c head care fully grind the c off and re create it to a d and call it a day. Now fast forward you sell the cra and fail to mention the said modification. I'm all against riping people of by modifying parts to appear as what they are not. But given certain circumstances where do you draw the fine line. Would you tell the buyer hey I did this one little mod due to the circumstances and risk the deal on selling the car ? Or let it ride out. That's where I'm getting at.

Octania

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-OLDSMOB...99035c&vxp=mtr

Not one clue that this is a restamp, at this time, anyhow...

Now, THAT seems deceitful. Full disclosure is not attempted.

1968 tabless ? bumper brackets, set forth as 442/W30 parts- is that iggernance or fraud?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WOW-NICE-196...1fec1f&vxp=mtr

"exhaust bolts" - well, maybe suitable, but not what the factory used- again, this fact is not mentioned. Ignorance, or fraud? Or, a matter of "who cares? they fit and work!"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WOW-NICE-196...1fec1f&vxp=mtr

The list is endless...
================================
Update Monday 515pm:

"> Thanks for the info!
>
> -desertdogauto"

And, yet, the [to be generous] "misinformation" is still in place:
"originally installed on a 1968 Oldsmobile F-85, Cutlass, 442, W-30, W-31 or Hurst/Olds left and right rear bumper brackets that still wears some of its factory applied black color and should clean up and restore nicely. This should fit all 1968 Olds F-85, Cutlass and 442 models"

And the fake '9254 carb seller [eBay Member: zasko-52]:

"Dear zasko-52,
You might want to mention that this carb has been restamped.
-*the*rocketscientist"

"OK"

and still, the ad is not altered, nor was the "question" and reply added to the item description in either case- to me, THIS is fraud. You are made aware, if you were not before, and yet the inaccurate information is not corrected.

sicky olds

But I daily drive my H/O.....Does this mean i should tpw is home every day?