Best I could find was this picture from the CSM. It's a little dark, but it shows the bolts and the pry points for tightening.



- Eric

 

Agreed.
It's cheap to do , and easy and highly recommended IMHO.

My 2nd gen Camaro one broke on me last year at an event.
Just cracked and it was useless and I couldn't get it to start.

I changed out my Camaro ignition switch and I'm so happy I did.
Works like new again.

My Olds is getting a new one too just for the hell of it.
I'm not waiting for it to crack like the other one did.

 

Thanks guys .... I found out how to get after the adjustment bolt on the PS. There is a hole on the pulley in front of it that you put the socket / extension through in order to loosen the bolt . It moved enough to get the belts off once again and sure enough ..... The Water Pump bearing is Toast , so its off to the auto parts store for a new WP. I'm smiling because that is the easiest / cheapest thing to fix , and now I can relax a little that it was not anything major . I will also need to get at that Ignition Switch like Aceshigh indicated .

 

Check your timing gears and chain, too!
Easier to change with the water pump off!

- Eric

 

I'll have to take a look at that and post a pic when I get there , I'm actually going to have some extra cash I did not count on , so maybe I can pick up a timing light while i'm there.... oh is there any possibility that the noise could have been the Power Steering ? I ask because the belt that I removed from the water pump also goes around the pully for the power steering . When I removed the belt the noise was gone , but I just assumed it was the water pump right away , and never even thought of the power steering. I will have to give the water pump a spin by hand before I buy a new one just to be sure.

 

Wellll... The noise could be from anything driven or touched by that belt (including the belt itself) if it stopped when you removed the belt.

All accessory bearings should be silky smooth, with no play whatsoever that you can feel.

Try turning all of them - my guess is the water pump will be rough or loose, but the power steering pump is not out of the question. P/S pumps are a dime a dozen, so if it is that, it shouldn't be a big problem either.

- Eric

 

X2 Most likely the water pump. PS is a dime a doz? They range from 50-100 at Rock Auto and are 43 + core at O'reillys. I know, it's an expression. But it's not exactly cheap.

Bryon, if you do have to change out your PS pump? You could buy a rebuild kit which is basically O rings and pressure springs for a lot less. With the savings, buy a set of PS pressure and return lines too. The ones you have are too old to really trust much more. ILT has both (concours correct BTW) for 55/set.

 

Thanks Allen / MDchanic I'll check into that , i'm planning on doing the water pump repair tomorrow , so I will post again then.

 

You'd buy a NEW one?

I've never come across one in a junkyard that didn't work, no matter how bad they looked.

He could probably get one off a wreck for $5-10, $20 tops, that is unless a nearby Olds lover had one lying in the corner to give him.

- Eric

 

How about the PS pump from the 455 I got in my moms garage ? It was out of a 68 Toro , would that work ?

 

Should work fine, as long as the cars have the same accessories (pulley alignment).

- Eric

 

Now that I think of it ... I remember from an earlier thread that it may not work , because the brackets from the Toro are different . I'm not to worried about it , because i'm almost positive that its the water pump

 

I'm not so sure about that, but it shouldn't matter anyway, since we're talking about the pump and not the brackets.

I agree, though - it's always the water pump.

- Eric

 

Isn't the 68 Toro PS pump a different design? I looked it up on WAC and it appears to have a different reservoir and mounting bracket.

 

Oh.

Well, if so, the pump could always be swapped into the correct reservoir, with the help of an $8 seal kit from the local auto parts store .

- Eric

 

Well , I was working at it for about 6hrs , I must of forgot how much fun it was the last time I did this ( still is better then trying to do a water pump on an 87 Olds ) The first pic shows some of the possible differences with a 72 vs a 76 Olds motor ... in the last pic , the short cut piece of orange heater hose I cut off of those two tubes that come together from the thermostat housing to the water pump .... does that look right ? I'm gonna have to get another short piece of hose until I can find the right set up if the one on there is wrong . The second pic shows where I stopped short of checking the timing chain , because time is getting short and I have to drive the car to work on monday . ( I can almost feel MDchanic reaching through his computer to slap me for not checking that AGAIN !) also in the last pic , what is that black plug with the clamp that came with the new water pump .... is that for a car with no heater ?
anyways , tomorrow I go get the piece of hose , a new thermostat and gasket , and some antifreeze.

 

Looks good, Bry!

That short piece of heater hose is just that - a short piece of heater hose.
They'll want to sell you a foot, but all you need is about three inches.
Pre-71 cars had a shorter nipple on the thermostat housing and used a special J-shaped piece of hose.

That rubber cap is exactly as you say - some later cars (no, I don't know which ones) had the nipple for the heater hose somewhere on the radiator if I'm not mistaken. They had a one-nipple pump, and including a little rubber cap is a lot cheaper for the company than stocking a whole different pump for those applications.

As for the timing chain - you've still got a good chance, while everything's off, to pull the fuel pump and wiggle your finger in there to see if the chain's loose. Someone else may have na exact number for you, but I'd say it should have no more than about a quarter inch of play if you can get a finger on it. Half an inch would be too much.

Either way, if you gotta get to work, you gotta get to work.
"No workee, no wrenchee," as the ancient proverb goes...

- Eric

 

It took me awhile to even get up the courage to even type this on here , I feel like a fool .... I was suppose to take one belt off , which would eliminate the water pump and alternator as a suspect . The only thing that would of been hooked up was the Power Steering , and I would of had my answer , but I must of took both belts off right away ??? WHY ??? The thing that also threw me off was when I removed the water pump and spun it by hand , there was some resistance so I never went any further ... at this point I just want to sell the POS .

 

I'll have to price out a power steering pump for this POS . It sucks when you only get 3hrs of sleep
oh .... is there anything I need to know about that repair ? What I mean is can I just remove hoses and the pump , put the new one on and go ? or is it like the brakes , where you have to bleed the air out or something ?

 

Eh. Happens all the time.
You'll get over it.

So I take it the water pump was good, but the P/S pump was bad?

You need to see who's on here and close to you with a replacement.
Also, if the Toro one that you've got has a different tank, you can switch them - I think the seal kit is about $5.

- Eric

 

To answer your second post:
The main thing is to expect that all of the P/S fluid will be on the floor by the time you're done.
Basically, you just disconnect the hoses, reconnect, fill, and roll the steering from lock to lock a whole lot of times, adding fluid as necessary (easier with the front wheels off the ground). When you're tired of that, go drive it, and it will bleed the rest of the way while you drive.

You should look at your return hose - if it's got hose clamps on both ends, you may want to buy a replacement piece. The make special P/S return hose, but fuel line should work fine if it's not in stock.

- Eric

 

Bryon, don't beat yourself or the car up. You just learned a valuable lesson about how to isolate a problem one step at a time. Put that to good use when you coach others on this forum.

Far as the PS pump goes, you know how to get it off? Like Eric mentioned you can get a rebuild kit and do it yourself pretty cheap. Or you can buy a 'new reman' for about 40. ready to install. Your call because I know this is your dd. Probably faster to buy and install the reman, but I'd still keep the OEM and rebuild it down the road.

Noooo! The car is NOT a POS. I know you're just venting a little because of the frustration. You think you're the first and only one who's ever made a mistake like this? You just need time to calm down. No apologies needed and don't be embarassed. Life's too short for that. I think you're doing a commendable job keeping it on the road. I vote for keeping it!

 

Besides, just think of how much more work and money it would have been to change the water pump on a Japanese POS, never mind a P/S pump!

1. Remove front bumper cover
2. Remove front bumper
3. Remove fan shroud
4. Remove electric cooling fan
5. Remove radiator
6. Discharge air conditioning system using federally approved recycling machine. Wear safety goggles
7. Remove condenser
8. Remove intake plenum. Be careful when disconnecting all six sensors.
9. Remove air cleaner assembly. Be careful when disconnecting all eight sensors.
10. Using special factory wrench, contort right arm like pretzel (using ancient Japanese art of bone-bending) and remove fasteners. Kiss skin on knuckles goodbye.
11. Use special factory puller to remove water pump
12. Assembly is reverse of removal. Use special factory installer to install water pump.

- Eric

 

wow , sounds like fun . I remember replacing the water pump on the 87 CS my wife use to own , and from what I can remember , you had to take almost everything off the front of the motor to get the WP off ! It was a PITA , but sounds way easier then the import repair .

Thanks for the kind comments Allen and Eric , you are right , I was pissed... after I broke my back for hours bent over the front end of that car , I didn't even fix it . grrrrr !

 

Yeah, but you live for that kind of fun. I didn't think you owned one of those. Aren't you a BMW guy? Probably the same thing.....only in German.

 

Yeah, but think of how good at it you'll be the next time .

- Eric

 

It turns out that my initial diagnosis was not that bad after all , there was no way to just have a belt going to the PS pump and nothing else , so I got mad at myself for nothing. The pulley on the PS turns good and there does not seem to have any play in it , but it seems a little off as far as alignment with the other pulleys .... could this be a difference between a 72 vs a 76 motor ? or is it because something inside the PS pump is bad like a bearing that could throw it off ? Either way its making a lot of racket and the noise comes and goes ( a hollow grinding noise ) and seems to get worse with higher RPMs . The hoses are gonna be a real bear to get off ( no room ) I will post some pics when I do the repair this weekend. I was kinda hoping that the hoses were included , but they are not. The one hose seems to be leaking a little , not to mention I may destroy the fitting trying to get the hose off ... I may have to get some hoses too.

 

I was also going to change the oil and use that Marvel Mystery Oil to see if I can get rid of the upper engine tap/knock

 

Bryon
It sounds like you need a new pump assembly. You can take the one you've got apart and put in the new pump. Faster and easier than rebuild, plus you keep the original reservoir. As far as ease to work with? It's far easier just to take the whole bracket assembly off the block and go from there. If you decide to rebuild or replace the pump I think you have to take the mounting brackets off to get the pump out. Also makes it much easier to get at the hose fitting. If this is the first time it's coming off the car, it will take about 50-60 ft/lbs to break it loose. I think it's around a 13/16" Use your box end wrenches to prevent rounding the flare nut bolt. A leak on the PS hose it really matters if it's the pressure hose. Get a new set of hoses (I mentioned back on the 25th - ILT has them for 55/set and they're concours correct) The power steering is much easier to get to and work on when the inner fender liner is out. But that's a lot of work for this project.
Pn# - OCE7102 $55.00 set

Quote:

These sets are concourse correct. The set features the high
pressure supply hose and the low pressure return hose. These
hoses run from the power steering unit to the gear box mounted on the frame.

Here's the link to the catalogue - page 74 http://www.inlinetube.com/PDF%20cata...dsmobile05.pdf

 

I don't know what to say about the noise without hearing it, but the misalignment is probably because you've got mixed and matched accessory brackets.

ALL of the brackets and pulleys should be EITHER from the 1972 motor OR the 1976 motor.
Now, that being said, I had not been aware of any difference between the brackets from those two motors, but I do know that my '73 Delta with the '78 260 in it had an alignment problem because the P/S pump had the 1973 single-sheave pulley, and the pulleys on the motor were the 1978 pulleys. The P/S pulley landed right smack in between two sheaves of the other pulleys. I replaced the crank and WP pulleys with ones from a '73 455, and they still didn't line up with the P/S pump (they were in the same places as before, though the pulleys were VERY different diameters), so I swapped the P/S pump with one I got off of a '73 455 in a junkyard with a 2-sheave pulley, and it matched perfectly. I would have gotten a perfect match if I had just swapped the P/S pulley in the first place.

I don't know if all that made any sense, but I sure hope it helps .

- Eric

 

thanks a million , I did not think about removing the inner wheel well as of yet , that's probably the ticket right there . I was running real close on time again today , so I did not get a chance to study the hose removal to much ... one thing for sure is , I have to use a open end wrench like you said . I tried using an adjustable wrench and found out that is going to strip it. I will also get the brackets out of the way and see if that will help make some room . The hose I was talking about has a wet spot near the fitting , I'm assuming its PS fluid , but the reservoir is still pretty full . I may wait and see what happens on those .

 

I'm not sure if its the wrong brackets or not , there is one missing bolt where the bracket bolts to the side of the motor ... it was like that when I bought the car ( the last owner must of missed that when they swapped the motor) on the other hand , the misalignment is only like about 1/8" , but the other end of the pulley seems where it should be .... maybe a bent bracket ? or maybe the shaft is pulling to one side , because of the failed bearing ? If the brackets were mixed and matched , it would be off more then that wouldn't it ? either way I will snap some pics this weekend once I get the old pump off . I'm gonna have to dodge the apartment manager/owner that is quick to remind me that there is no working on cars in the heated parking garage ..... yea right !

 

Is it the pressure hose or return hose? The return hose attaches to the tube that comes out the back of the pump. The pressure one is the one with the fitting that's hard to get to. When I went to take my PS pump off, the pressure line wouldn't let me move the pump and I couldn't get it undone. I had to take the PS brackets apart to do the job. Here's some pics that shows the PITA it was. My car doesn't have AC so the pulley needed a special tool to remove it.
The mounting bolts are stupidly designed. The one bracket that goes to the e-manifold will come undone with just a bit of force. As you can see there was a lot of crud and grease build up that needed to be scraped away too. Take pictures of which nuts/bolts go in which spots. If you don't you'll be learning a new vocabulary when you go to put it together.

I cleaned up the pump (about 3 hours of degreasing and spot dremeling) to get it perfect. Then I shot it with gloss black. Fortunately my pump is in good operating condition - just add new Dexron 3 and bleed the system. Eric told you how to do that.

 

Hey that looks great , good job ! I looked at the PS pump that I bought today and it looks like one hose couples into the back of the pump , and the other one looks like it threads into the back of the pump on the opposite corner. I'll have to see which hose ends I can get to budge . I do beleive it may be a pressure line that has the wet spot , but I will have to verify that .

 

Bryon if it's the pressure hose, don't mess around - just replace it. That thing handles up to 1100psi.

 

Bry, two things:

One - you definitely need to use a flare nut wrench on those fittings to avoid making a mess of them. A square open end wrench is almost as bad as an adjustable wrench.

Two - I would bet that your misalignment comes from one or both of the spacers being missing. Read this thread for more information.

- Eric

 

Bleeding the power steering pump and gear is easy, but it is easy to screw things up, too!
NEVER turn steering wheel until system stays FULL after running engine!

After everything is hooked up and ready to run, fill reservoir to the full position with Dexron 2 ATF.
Start car and shut off after only a couple SECONDS! Pump will growl when pump runs dry (fluid gets forced into steering gear).
Check for leaks. Tighten hoses with only a line wrench.
Fill reservoir to full again and start car and run a couple seconds and shut off again. Refill.
Start car and let run a bit longer - like 30 seconds. IF you hear the growling sound, stop it as soon as possible and refill.
After it holds a constant full, procede with turning the steery wheel...

At this point, spreading some sand under the front wheels is advised.
When level stays at full, slowly turn wheels from left to right to center.
Shut off car and top off fluid. Shouldn't need much.
Restart and slowly turn wheels lock to lock a few more times slowly to bleed little air bubbles.
Shut off and top off. You should be done.
Check for leaks and tighten hoses. Make sure pulley nut and belt is tight, too.

Turning the wheels when the pump is/runs dry introduces big compressed gulps of air which can pop a pressure valve in the pump. It will require disassy to purge the air and reset the pressure valve. So that is why you need to make sure pump will stay full before turning wheels!

 

Hmmmm... I re-read my post and can see how it might be misinterpreted.

When I said, it never occurred to me that someone might start the engine and run the pump dry.

Whenever I've done it, I've poured the fluid in right up to the top, then turned the pulley by hand a bunch of times to circulate the fluid at least somewhat through the system, then put on the belt(s), started the car, and topped off until it kept its level, using a long-nosed funnel, with the engine running, then rolled the steering back and forth to expel air, checking the level quickly after the first leftward and the first rightward roll.

Thanks for pointing that out - just goes to show how much we can skip over because it's "obvious" (like reading one of your grandmother's recipes - just how much corn meal is "enough," anyway???).

- Eric

 

I tried this and it did not work. Not even spinning the pump with my cordless drill! It did not drop one tad. A high speed drill might work, but that might be too big to get on the pulley. Mine was only 500rpm or so.
Just start the car to be safe. Faster, too. Bottom line - if you hear growling, do NOT turn the wheels!

 

Hmmm... Maybe I was just making myself feel good by doing it.
It just seems right.

Agreed. It never occurred to me that anyone would, but, as I say, I guess I should have realized that that ain't necessarily so.

- Eric