oldsguybry

Hey , I have a delima , my 72 CS has a 350 in it now , but it has an engine knock after warm up , and I just so happen to have an extra 455 laying around The motor sat for about 4 years in a garage , it smoked but ran reeeal nice , had 60,000 on the rebuild supposedly. So , how hard could or would it be to drop in the 455 ? Well , this 455 came out of a 68 Toro , so I would need ....motor mounts ? and what about exhaust manifolds , will they work ? also Joe said something about the starter on Toro was mounted on the passenger side , and that I would have to get a RW drive starter , along with a oil filter adapter ? as far as everything else , it should bolt right up ? and what about wiring under the hood , does that hook up the same as the 350 ? meaning , do i have to replace the voltage reg. or anything ?....I will add more along with pics , as soon as the weather gets nicer.

Bry

joe_padavano

This topic has been covered here once or twice in the past:

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ket-455-a.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-question.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...wap-425-a.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...y-cutlass.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...gine-swap.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-455-swap.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ds-change.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...er-rocket.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...5-cutlass.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...questions.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...b-swap-bb.html

GoodOldsGuyDougie

One mans opinion! Keep the 350. rebuild if you have too. For me 455 were always trouble.

geckonz08

Lol --

Bayou Olds

I thought about ditching my 350 for a 455 but hung with the SBO. I figure I am not racing it, I can make decent HP with some work to the SBO, and there is soooooooooo much less hassle. But hey, if it is what you want, go for it!

Aceshigh

If money isn't an obstacle and you don't care about MPG go with the 455. (Although my true opinion is to go LSX)
If money is an obstacle, and you actually want to drive it more often without bleeding your wallet. Stick with the 350.

455's are more fun, but thanks to OPEC, and oil speculators, it's becoming a dying entertainment IMO.

bil

I always had trouble with the 455s too.When you really get after them,it causes a blue flashing light to appear in the mirror.Just ignore it and go faster,it will go away!
The 350 is a good,reliable,fairly economical engine.But if you want something with real low end torque,go for the 455. ---bil

ziff396

After having my 455, I will not change back to a small block eventhough I have the original 350 shortblock in my garage completly machined and rebuilt. For weekend cruises, gas milage is not a factor to me. My work truck all week is less (7mpg) pulling a trailer around. If I want milage, I just drive the wifes car.

oldsguybry

I have all the accessories and belts still on the 455 from when I pulled it from the Toro , so would all that stuff work in the Cutlass ? and whats with the oil filter adaptor ? just curious as to why I would need the RWD one..... also where would be a good place to get the exhaust manifolds ? W -Z ? I beleive ...part of the reason im doing this is , I may have to drive this car this summer again , and with the 350's engine knock , I dont feel comfortable driving it...I also dont have the money to rebuild the 350 , so for little money , this may be the way for me to go for now.....thanks in advance.

Bry

oldsguybry

ok , I found a link where I already asked you about the oil filter adaptor already ...sorry Joe , but I was still confused as to why do you needed the adaptor in the Cutlass , does it interfere with something otherwise ? im assuming the starter maybe ? I cant remember what side the oil filter was on in the 455.....oh and I also remembered now that the flywheel has one or two chipped teeth , cause some dumb **** pryed on it when we were pulling motor from Toro...is this gonna cause any problems ? ...also the chains shifted on the engine hoist when lifting , and the distributor cap got busted too... so hopefully there was no other unseen damage done.

D Appeldorn

if mony is a issue take the best engine of both.

And start from that.

i did put in a 455 longblock and put all the 350 parts on the 455.

Strange thing is, i having 8.5 or 9 to 1 compression, hei, performer, edelbrock 750 carb, home made double exhaust, G heads and 6 degree timing.

And when i put my foot down even under driving at slow speeds it still wants to burn rubber.
Got not to be to enthusiastic when comming out of a corner and putting my right foot down.

Mine is a rebuild engine, but still a low comp.
and it is real fun to drive.

next time be more carefull with pulling the engine out.
small parts, costs money and time to repair to.

and i should change the flywheel with the chipped teeth.

oldsguybry

lol , you should of seen the comedy act it was to get that motor and tranny out of that car , the cheap engine hoist I have almost toppled over . I ended up making training wheels for the engine hoist , and it worked great ....I never seen such a big transmission in all my life yea , I was affraid I would have to get another flywheel .

2blu442

The Toronado oil filter adapter is angled down and forward, causing the filter to interfere with your exhaust. But the 350 adapter will swap over as will the flexplate (automatic transmission flywheel). The 350 exhaust manifolds will bolt up and if money is tight you can run those for now, they are smaller inside so they won't breath as well as big block manifolds. I think your good to go! Any other questions not covered yet? John

oldsguybry

wow , so the flywheel from the 350 will work on the 455 too ? cool , I may just do this after all , looks like the only thing I will need short term is a radiator...lol , I know I wont get the one from the Toro to fit , cause I have the one from the Toro and it is quite wide....maybe I could rig it I could get a new aluminum radiator from a speed shop in town for about $300 , does that sound pricey ? They also offer a rebuilt TH400 for around $450 , but then I would need shorter drive shaft ...if anyone has a radiator that would work , and lives somewhat local to me , I would be interested possibly...other than that , im also wondering if the wire connectors from the Cutlass harness will fit in the accessories on the 455...like the alternator and sensors ....etc...and im also worried about clearance issues with valve covers , cause the Cutlass has AC....if I decide to do this I made need to examine/lube the cylinders before trying to start this beast , if this requires removal of heads or any other major work , I dont have a whole lot of expierience in that field , so I may need some assistance or guidence if it comes to that

oldsguybry

Thanks in advance , experts

oldsguybry

oh well , I guess I should feel fortunate that I got the answers that I did , there is only a couple of things im not sure about.....ive done everything on my car by trial and error and learning the hard way , so I'll figure it out on my own. New guys can be a pain , I know .....but everyone had to learn or ask those stupid questions at somepoint in the begining (except for Joe , he always knew everything...lol)

joe_padavano

Yeah, I wish...

I just made all my stupid mistakes decades ago. (well, MOST of them, anyway)

oldsguybry

While moving stuff around in garage , I found the starter from the 455 , now I noticed the gear that contacts with the flywheel is not at the end of the shaft where the hole is , its down the shaft a little , but it is moveable by hand....is this normal ? How does it engage ? I dont have a lot of exp. with starters , so any input would be great.

Bryan

MDchanic

Solenoid on top of starter is energized by ignition switch, pushes gear into position to crank engine (also closes circuit to run starter motor), gear is pulled back by spring when key is released.

- Eric

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

Ha ha, if that light is gone that means you are the new *itch in the cell

64Rocket

It will be tight with the 455, but it should fit just fine.
You need to use everything off the 350, brkts, starter, pulleys, water pump, power steer pump, alt. distributer and the 350 motor mounts. Wire harness is just fine, The starter will mount on the same side on both engines.
You should have read all the post that Joe put up and all your questions would have been answered. Your T-350 will work just fine as long as you don't abuse it to much. If you go with the T-400, be sure to get the short shaft one and move the cross member back a couple of inches. Also a drive shaft with a T-400 yoke.
If you have the notched valve covers, that will give you a little more room.

Gene

oldsguybry

cool , thanks everyone.....I will start thread on this swap with pictures in summer when its good and hot.

oldsguybry

oh no ,why cant I use all the brackets and pulleys from the 455 ? I left all that stuff on the 455 when I pulled the motor out of the Toro , including the belts ....I read through some of those links , but only one or two pertained to the 350 to 455 swap....I know I have to use the Toro starter with the 350 adaptor , im not understanding why i need to use the 350 alternator , water pump , distributor and the power steering pump....can someone explain ? I will review those links again....

oldsguybry

I read through the links Joe provided , just so there is no confusion....I have a 72 CS which has a 350 with A/C ......I want to put in a 455 from a 68 Toro which also had A/C I beleive....So , I still have to use 350 accesories and brackets ? I still dont understand why the parts on 455 which are already lined up and on the motor , wont work in 72 CS... is there a clearence issue....

thanks in advance
Bryan

D Appeldorn

singel exhaust won't work without changing it.
it is 2 inches to short and hit the oilpan.

rest i don't know

oldsguybry

I cant even think about trying to swap the 350 to the 455 now.....I'm not sure what to do now , I got a few different answers on this......can someone please help me on this? do I really need to use the accesories from the 350 and why , my last couple of entries should explain everything else.

67 Cutlass Freak

I think he said to use all the accessories from the 350 because your engine wiring harness was set up for them. Sometimes the water pumps have a different length snout. They moved the alternator around. The power steering pump may be different. You should put the two engines next to each other and check out all the differences. I would forget about the AC if it was my car. I would also not install an engine that already has a problem, like- "smoking". Usually there's only a few things that would cause this, like valve guides, seals or rings. I would yank the heads and send them out to a qualified machine shop to have them gone through. A descent valve job should run you close to $200. If guides or seats have to be replaced, it could get costly, but heads are readily available. I believe the oil pan on the Toro was different. Has a different hump in the center and holds one quart less oil. I know you said money is tight, but I hate doing a bunch of work to install a motor only to be dissapointed in how it runs. It never fails the guy sais, "It ran great five years ago when I pulled it." A lot of things can happen over time to an engine that just sits. The cylinder walls are probably rusted up pretty good if it wasn't turned over periodically. Did you do that or lube them up? I live in Salem, Wi about 45 minutes south of Milwaukee. If you need something I would be glad to help you. I have a ton of Olds stuff. Just PM me-Dave

oldsguybry

Thanks Dave , that explains it better.......64 Rocket said i also had to swap the distributor?....is he refering to the distributor cap ? why would you need to switch that ?

oldsguybry

mannnn , this really sucks..... I cant drive the 72 CS with the engine knock.....my 2001 Chrysler Town & Country van has a unrepairable transmission problem , gas guage is inaccurate , rpm guage dont work , motor for window on drivers side dont work , airbag light is on ( unrepairable ) , automated doors wont open...etc...etc...and it has expired plates..... I have no choice I guess to just drive the 72 CS with the ready to explode 350 in it , and get slammed on the gas prices this summer.....better yet , i think i may have to start riding my mountain bike.

oldsguybry

ok , maybe look back at the 350 again ......I have an engine knock , sounds like top and bottom of motor at times , just changed oil , using a thicker oil along with some motor honey.....it did tame the knock down , but still there , so with that said , what are my options on diagnosing the problem? maybe this wont be that costly of a repair if i do it myself. I never been inside a motor before , so I would need some assistance on that matter.....I could also swap parts to the 455 like stated above and put that motor in , but since it sat for about 4 yrs in a garage and smoked when the motor was in the Toro , I was advised not to put that motor in with out some work done on it first....not to mention I'm not understanding the fact why i would have to swap distributors ??? so any input on the new idea would be grand.

Bryan

67 Cutlass Freak

Well Bryan you are in a pickle. First off I would never use Motor Honey, Slick 50, or any of those type of products to try to fix a knock. They tend to gel up, and build up on the bottom of the oil pan. I hear you about the price of gas. Maybe you should focus your efforts on getting a reliable daily beater with great gas mileage. I had a rusted up Nissan Sentra that would get 36 miles to the gallon. I paid $600 for it, put some tunes in it and sold it after a year for $1200.
Let's get back to the Olds. Most comon cause of a knock is too much rod or bearing clearance, which can cause reduced oil pressure. Do you know what your oil pressure is, at idle, hot? It could also be a wrist pin or piston skirt slapping. It could also be a broken rocker bridge. That would be a very easy and cheap fix. You might want to pull the valve covers just to see if you could get lucky. You might be able to isolate which cylinder is causing the problem by removing the ignition wires one at a time to see if the noise goes away. I recently put together a spread sheet of what it cost me to put together a performance short block Olds 350. It would cost about the same to build a performance BB. Keep in mind that I did choose some high end parts, and this was by no means a stock rebuild. You can pick up a stock type rebuild kit for about $650. The machine shop bill would probably be $1000-$1200 depending on what all they do for you. Do it once, and do it right. Take it one step at a time. Do your research. Know what you want. Be sure to have your goals and budget in mind. Probably most importantly find a good machine shop that knows Oldsmobile engines well. Take a look at this build sheet and you'll get an idea what I'm talking about-

Olds 350 CI Race Engine


1972 350CI engine block core
1967 330 steel crank core
1967 Flex plate
1972 Damper
JE Pistons Custom 2300077 $680.75
Rings J100F84080-5 $100.00
Rod bearings 02-5029 $60.00
Main Bearings MS805P20 $60.00
Rod bushings 02-5029 $40.00
(2) Heavy metal slug 1”X1” $70.00
ARP rod bolt RB-200 $58.00
Freeze plug kit FP-640 $14.00
Race Cam Bearings RCB-499 $69.00
Gasket Set GS-550 $95.00
High Volume Oil Pump SP-754 $69.00
Bolt on pick up PU-3 $35.00
J&S 5 Main Halo $250.00
J&S Main Stud kit $85.00
Machine Work Performed by LAM Racing Engines


Install rod bushings, Fit/ assemble rods & pistons,
final polish rod beams, Recondition rods with ARP bolts-
includes R&R bolts, machine oil relief grooves in rods,
deck block, piston height + .0001,
Balance rotating assembly, regrind crank
Rods - .020 Mains - .020, install slugs of heavy metal (mill),
Install main studs, mill for main girdle (halo) to 2.175 depth of caps
Dial bore gauge main bearing bores, low limit to middle of spec,
Final wash block and install cam bearings & freeze plugs, check main
bearing clearance and ring end gaps. Total machine shop services - $1311

total investment- $3160.75
109-0977_IMG.jpg

GoodOldsGuyDougie

see my earlier post in this thread!

oldsguybry

thanks guys , I would love to keep the 350 in the CS , I will try and locate the cylinder that has the problem and go from there.....I have very little exp. with the internal workings of the motor , either way I would have to pull the motor right ? The car knocks on warm up , you notice it in first gear and when you put it in park.....sounds like tapping on the top of the motor and a deeper louder knock on the bottom.....after changing the oil I dont notice the lower knock as much now....feel free to come on over this summer and help...he he he , ill supply the entertainment ( lots-o-bars around )

MDchanic

Are the tapping in the top of the motor and the knocking in the bottom the same sound, or are they two different sounds?

As has been said, top end ticking is usually fairly easy to fix - could be a loose rocker bolt or a worn rocker or tower, could be a bad lifter or pushrod.

Find the offending part of the valvetrain, then start at the top and check each component until you find the perpetrator.
Everything but the lifter can be accessed through the valve cover with no further disassembly.

For a bottom end noise, bite the bullet, jack up the car, raise the engine slightly if you have to, drop the oil pan, and give each rod a good wiggle. If you've got a bad rod bearing, you should be able to feel the extra play in it (there should be no perceptible play in any of the rod bearings). If you want to go nuts, you can remove the rod caps (Mark them first!), remove the bearing shells, clean off the oil, and Plastigage them. You can do the same to the crank bearings if you're really motivated. If you've got a bearing bad enough to hear, you'll probably see it when you look at it, though, without having to measure anything, or at least feel it once the oil is off of it if you didn't feel it at first.
You can replace the bad bearing shell, and get plenty of more miles out of it before you have to do any of that fancy machine shop stuff. A single pair of shells should run you about six bucks.

I agree with Cutlass Freak, though, your best bet is to buy the cheapest piece of crap junker you can get you hands on for transportation, THEN start taking the Olds apart.

- Eric

oldsguybry

the two knocks are definately different , I have no option to buy another vehicle , because all my money goes to my wife and two kids to survive.
if anyone could give me a reason why I would have to put the 350 distributor on the 455 if i did the swap ....that would be great , cause i will just put the smokey 455 in , depending on the condition of the cylinder walls....like i said befor im assuming when you say distributor that you are talking about the distributor cap right? Man , this aint lookin good

67 Cutlass Freak

The distributor for the 350 & 455 can be interchanged. You need to check if you have a points type distributor or HEI. The HEI version has a larger cap and base with the coil built into the cap. The HEI unit is much more reliable and an easy swap. All you need is a good heavy gauge 12volt power supply with the key on and in the crank position. It sounds like you are gung hoe to install ole smokey, which is fine. You need to do more research though, on what the biggest differences are. The engine mounts or frame pads should be an area of concern. The deck height is different so the heads will sit up higher. That might cause some exhaust fitment issues. The 455's tend to run a little hotter, so a bigger radiator might be a smart option. Sounds like you need a new one anyway. Try 1-800-RADIATOR. They are out of Chicago and very reasonable.

oldsguybry

Thanks...I have the old points distributor .....how hard is that to remove , I never tried to remove that before , and if i dont put in right , isnt that going to screw up the firing order or something ? Not only that , but im still wondering why you would have to swap distributors in the first place....im dying to know

MDchanic

1. I don't agree that you need to use the 350 distributor. I'm not sure why Gene said that. Might have been a slip of the keyboard.
   
2. Two important rules:
   1. Always fix the most important or dangerous problem first
   2. Check the easy things before checking the hard things.
   You have two options:
   1. Fix the motor in the car
   2. Put in a new motor
   Which one is less work?
   Usually fixing the motor in the car - swapping motors is a pain in the a$$ unless you've got a fully equipped shop.
   So, it's better to try to fix the motor in the car than to change it.
   
   What's wrong with the motor in the car?
   Two noises: Upper end and lower end.
   Which is more important or dangerous?
   The lower end noise - it could destroy your engine. A sticky lifter will not destroy your engine.
   
   So, you need to investigate the lower end noise to see if it can be fixed, so that you can know whether you need to put in a new motor.
   • Jack up the car.
   • Use a jack to support the vibration damper.
   • Remove the motor mount bolts.
   • Jack up the motor an inch or so.
   • Drain the oil.
   • Remove the oil pan bolts and the oil pan.
   • Look at and feel the conrod bearings.
   • If there's an obvious bad one, then check the crank journal for damage, and replace the bearing shells.
   • If not, then mark and remove the bearing caps, and feel and visually inspect the bearing shells and the journal surfaces.
   • If all look good, then place Plastigage and assemble and torque the bearing caps dry, with no oil, and plastigage them, also feel them to see if any of them have any play.
   • If all measure out, then decide whether you want to try the same thing with the crank (which weighs something like sixty pounds and is still attached to the transmission).
   • If you're lucky, then by this point, you'll have found the problem either in a bearing, or in some other part.
   • If you haven't found the problem, and you're sick of it, then pull the motor and put in the other one.
   In this scenario, you stand to lose about half a day and about six bucks for a bearing shell pair, as well as whatever the Plastigage and a gasket set will run you, and you've got a running car with a valve tick.
   If the motor's wrecked, then you've got a good reason to pull it and swap in the other.
   If the motor is fixed, then you've taken care of business, and can get to the 455 later.

- Eric

442_Mustang

My car was a 350/4bbl/dual exhaust 4 speed from the factory and it was a lot of fun.I put in the 455 and the only things I had to change was the mounting holes for my brackets. My brackets had the holes for big and small block bolt locations and I don't regret swapping up for a second.I did buy headers but I know that manifolds will interchange. It's almost like some common sense was used when this setup was devised. I'd go with the 455.

oldsguybry

once again thanks , very great info and I agree with leaving the 350 in if possible for now....I think maybe i shall lift up motor with my hoist and check those parts Eric mentioned , its at that point I may have to take alot of pictures and ask alot of pesky questions , cause i never did this before... BTW...what the heck is plastigage lol.....if I cant get either motor to work , then I will start a restore thread on my mountain bike that i will be riding lol