815Cutlass1972

Hello,

Has anyone on this site ever swapped a Toro 455 into a Cutlass. Is there any modifications that need to be made. I heaqrd the Toro sits a little lower in the engine bay. Toros were FWD right? IF a 400th is used instead of the 425 FWD for Toro, then this swap should be pretty easy right?

I'm going to go look at a 1969 Toro this weekend to verify the engine's casting numbers and to check out it's condition.

Any advice would be helpful.

Olds64

What kind of Cutlass? If it is an A body it will be stupid easy. If it is a G body there is a little bit more invloved. Ultimately, it is a pretty easy swap. Check out the search function for specifics. It has be covered numerous times.

joe_padavano

Yeah, Oldsmobile. The 1968 Hurst/Olds used a Toro 455 short block. All 455s are externally identical. The Toro differences are the starter, oil filter adapter, manifolds, motor mounts, accessory brackets, and oil pan.

Starter: The Toro starter bolts to the trans on the passenger side. The block still has the normal starter mounting pad on the driver's side. Just bolt on a RWD starter.

Oil filter adapter: Unbolt the Toro adapter and bolt on a RWD adapter.

Intake manifold: The Toro manifold is lower than on a normal 455 for hood clearance. It can be used on a RWD application with no problems.

Exhaust manifolds: Toro-unique. Swap them for manifolds or headers that fit your chassis.

Motor mounts: Use the mounts that fit your chassis.

Accessory brackets: Some Toro brackets are different. Use RWD brackets.

Oldsguy

And of course the transaxle cannot be swapped from the toro to the Cutlass. Welcome to CO!

bpwordman

Joe nailed most of it.Oh how I miss my 68 H/O!If I may add just a couple of things:You asked about the trans-definitely not usable from Toro,but bolt patterns are the same BOPCad as the rest;in addition to being different/lower,the Toro intake is also a power killer in anything other than stock config-it was a styling concession-go aftermarket;another benefit from the Toro motor is a deeper sump oil pan w/1 add'l quart capacity!I have never heard of any clearance problems in any chassis where the big block was available stock.Good luck,and I hope this helps

joe_padavano

There is no difference between a FWD and RWD 455 block (it's exactly the same casting), so fitment is not an issue.

bpwordman

To clarify my statement,I've never heard of any clearance problems with the high capacity oil pan in any chassis where a big block was factory offered...

Olds64

I have the Milodon deep sump oil pan in my 71 98 and don't have any clearance issues. If it can fit without clearance issues then a Toronado oil pan would easily fit.

J-(Chicago)

If you're not going to use the transaxle, I'm looking for an extra.

815Cutlass1972

Wow,

Thanks to everyone that responded. The information provided is valuable as my quest for more Torque and Horses continues. I've been searching for a year -n- half for a 455, and recently a gent from a small town called Marengo,IL asked me if I was interested in Big Block from a 68 Toro.

I didn't have any knowledge about Toronados, so I assumed they were huge boats with a 400 or 425, which I was not interested in for my 1972 Cutlass Sport. After researching, I realized the 68-69 Toro had 455's and with a few adjustments it could sit in a A-body.

Well I went back to the guy with Big Block Toro about a week later and asked him if he still wanted to sell it, and he said " I couldn't find anyone to buy it, so I gave it to a young kid to use in Demo Derby".

Fellas I let's say I went home with flu like symptoms, with sour stomach!! So now I am hoping this Toro that I'm going to look at will not have too many issues.

Do you Gents have any suggestions in regards what to look for if the engine runs, any quick checks I can do, or certain noises to pay attention too. I mean I guess a engine can be fixed, but I don't want to over pay, and find a myriad of issues once it's taken apart.

Thanks Fellas

By the way I am having difficult time posting my car on my profile, any suggestions?

mugzilla

I've been looking for a replacement 455 for a 70 442 and have had responses from my parts wanted add here ...

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-70-455-a.html

When my insurance check comes through I'll have to pick one ...

Olds64

If you can convince this kid to sell you the Toro or at least the engine then you need to make sure the engine turns. Either turn it with the starter motor or turn it with a wrench. If it can turn then you won't have any worries. Especially if you were gonig to rebuild it anyways before putting it in your Cutlass.

csouth

Welcome aboard. I am actually in the process of putting a 68 Toro in my '72 Cutlass S. If I can say anything is, that these guys here are great. I would also recommnend going through that motor. The one I purchased was a runner too, but there was some things that need to be done. Remember, they are a lot easier to fix out of the car. We look forward to hearing the results of whatever you find....

815Cutlass1972

Just an search update. Today I went to Cheeseland(Wisconsin) to check out a 68 Toronado with a 455. The casting numbers matched for the year as described. The engine turns over and runs.

The owner said two cylinders have decreased compression. Will decreased compresion be a mute point, since my plans were to have any engine I buy rebuilt anyway? He's actually selling the car at a low price, but wanted to know how decreased compression would affect my rebuild.

Olds64

Decreased compression won't be a big deal since you are going to have it rebuilt, especially since it runs.

joe_padavano

Well, it might be a MOOT point if you are planning a rebuild...

Seriously, the only answer is "it depends". If the compression loss is due to worn rings, blown head gasket, or bad valves, then a rebuild will fix the problem. If it's due to a more serious problem, like a crack (unlikely but possible) then it matters. If you're negotiating the price, make it sound as bad as possible.

Olds64

You mentioned the guy is selling the car cheap... how cheap? I bought my 455 and TH 400 from a guy in KCMO for $300. I got a steal. If you can buy the entire car for about $500 - $700 then I think it would be a deal. Especially if you have room to store the Toronado and part it out after taking the engine.

815Cutlass1972

250 bucks, but I spoke to him last night, and he told me the City Of Madison.WI towed it because it was sitting in his yard and didn't have it's currrent tags.

So it's accumulating a 20 fee each day it is there. It's becoming more of hassle because I have to have it towed two hours back to IL and that's another $300.00. Plus I'll need storage for Toro itself, which will run me 60-100 a month.

So I'm collecting my thoughts and still looking for other engines. The journey continues. Ha this journey reminds me when I was teenager trying to score with girls, something always came up and ruined it, but when the time came it was worth the time(three minutes to be exact) LOL.

Olds64

Man, $250 would be super cheap. Bummer that it didn't work out.

1964f-85

My 64 has a 68 Toronado 455, it was simple trans plant.
Make sure you get the powersteering bracket, small block brackets are shorter, however, a spacer can be added to make it work.

Once the motor is out, I would suggest pulling the heads and go over them, get a valve job, check the cylinder walls for wear, pull the oil pan, clean everything, replace the oil pump,and change the timing chain and water pump.

This is a great time to throw in a cam and lifters as well as an HEI dietributor.

If everything looks clean and no major signs of wear, put it back together and go.

If your are not racing this, I would use standard Fel-pro head gaskets, they'll lower your compression slightly and make it a little more pump gas friendly.

In my experience Toto motors didn't get the physical abuse that 442 motors did and tend to be in much better shape.

joe_padavano

Only the 1964 brackets are different because there was no BBO that year. ALL subsequent years (1965-1976, and actually all through the 1970s), the RWD brackets were designed to fit both BBO and SBO. Note that some Toro brackets are unique to the FWD configuration. Also , the 65-67 brackets are different from the 68-79 brackets.

sklbndt

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...html#post65822

The link above is just an FYI for when you get a toro to pull the engine from. The procedure for pulling this engine does not mention the issue I ran into which is outlined at this link. Not sure if it applies to years other than 69.

Good luck in your search and welcome to CO!! Keep us posted.

815Cutlass1972

Thanks bud!! Everyone on ClassicOldsmobile have been very helpful!!!!!

815Cutlass1972

Fellas,

I have some good news. I purchased a 1969 455 Police Interceptor Block from a gent in MI this past weekend ($200.00). The engine unfortunately is not complete. The previous owner had it stored in his garage for the past 5 years. He had it wrapped in plastic and he lubricated the engine and other parts regularly. When I looked at the engine the first time I was amazed of the shape of the block, virtually no rust on it.

He used the C heads from a 68 OLDS on his 1970 Pontiac that has a OLDS 400 in it. He gave me two sets of heads G heads and J heads which I will not use on my rebuild.

The crankshaft "N" appears to be in great shape. The casting number is 397363. I was told this was a very good crank. The pistons were included. It is missing the intake manifold and carb, which the previous owner placed on his Pontiac T/A.

I started my search for large C heads and alum intake. Jesus, Moses, Muhammed C heads are going for a hefty price 300-600 bucks, and intakes ain't cheap either 200-300. I was searching around for big vavle C heads and a Intake Manifold, and I found another gent who is selling large valve C heads, but he won't separate from the engine which is a 1970 455 W-30.

The seller say's he has every single part needed to assemble the engine. He said the only thing he has not done is "hone" the engine. I have no clue what "hone" means.

The engine is disassembled. I added up the cost of all the neccesary hardware I need for the engine I purchased from MI, and it adds up. The seller of the 1970 455 deal is enticing, and the price isn't too a killer.

I talked with the old lady and she thinks I should look into buying it because of the hardware the 1970 has. Do you guys think it's good idea to have two engines. I didn't think it was so bad, because I feel it's always good to have back-up plan.

Also fellas I paln to get a BOP 400. I found one, but I know nothing about stall conv.... I just want a strong street 455, jsut a little above stock, do I need a stall conv. Do you Gents think I need to change my rear end on my 1972 Cutlass "S". My mechanic told me it was the stock 10 bolt, but I forgot what gears.

Gents what do you think?

svnt442

If it were a 70 W30 he would have F heads. If you think $300-$600 is a hefty price, try a set of F heads at $3000-$8000 depending on condition.
Spare engines are always a good thing. You can never have too many. Just ask Eightupman .
Use the G heads. They are as good as anything. The flow difference between C and G heads would be minimal. You can always have the larger valves installed when you do the valve job.

Olds64

I agree 100%.

It is always nice to have an extra block though. If I were in your shoes I would build the engine that I have. You should focus on getting it into your Cutlass and then go from there.

BTW, congratulations. $200 is a great price. You can always pick up an aftermarket intake and oil pan.

csouth

I have a 68 toro motor and I would agree with Olds64 and SVNT442, use the G heads and get and aftermarket intake and oil pan. If you absolutely want a toro intake, i still have mine. You should not see the difference in the performance, especially because its all a new engine to you. Really, build that motor up and enjoy your car...

Warhead

Good score.
Put the big valves into the G or the J heads, have it done by a good shop, who actually know Oldsmobiles. You can find some good deals for valves on E-bay occasionally. Having the big valves installed (labor only) will be about the same in cost as finding another (unknown) set. Larger exhaust valves have never given any extra performance to me. Save the dough.
C heads were not from a W-30.
You will probably end up with $600-$800 in a set of rebuilt heads with big valves anyway, but you KNOW they will be good as new. And since they will not have the carbon cake buildup on the back side of the valves, they will flow better too.
A hone will break the glaze (removing the polish if you will) on the cylinder wall, which will be necessary for the new rings to "break in" and create a seal along that round surface.
A 3.08, or 3.23 gear with a posi, will be all you need to get that thing into the 13 second bracket.
Even with the stock cam, and converter.
Use a rebuilt Q-jet, and a Torker, or a Performer, or a Holley SD.

Like I said, good score.

Jim

815Cutlass1972

It's been awhile, but things have been moving along. I have the 1970 F block in the machine shop, All the parts came back good after magnafluxing them. All I know so far is that the block has never been bored, and the C heads are in very good shape. The machinist and I have are trying to stay at or under 9:5. compression.

He is going to measure, so I know what size piston to order, I'm thinking we might have to go .30 over, but I should know early next week. One man shop and he is swamped with work.

I told him I prefer to go with forged instead of cast pistons. The rods are getting reconditioned also. Using manifolds instead of headers. Single to dual exhuast.

I'm looking at Comp Cams XE268H K-223-4 224/230 @50 268/280 485/490
Comp cam Rocker arm kit. Anyone familiar with this particular cam?

I have a Edlebrock performer intake, but still struggling with the Holly 750 cfm with electirc choke or rebuilding the Q-Jet # 7029251 RJ

I'm sending a 400 BOP that came from a 68 GOAT to get rebuilt later this week.

Gents, I have chance to get a Toronado Oil pan with windage trays that appears to be very clean it's just under 200.00. Is that a good deal, or am I better off buying a aftermarket or sticking with my original standard oil pan.

Looking make this a quick street car, that can also cruise on the highway in a enjoyable way. Hope to get pictures of the process on here soon!

Olds64

I would buy the aftermarket oil pan and sump. It would cost you around $300.

joe_padavano

The Toro pan is overrated in my opinion. Yes, it holds an additional quart, but that quart is locked up in the bulge forward of the notch for the drive axle. That oil does not readily drain into the main sump. I agree, get a good aftermarket pan.

815Cutlass1972

Thanks fellas

Will there be any ground clearance issues with an after market oil pan, ie; scraping or banging the ground? My car is sitting on 17 inch rims. Will that help clear ground clearance issues?? I just looked at the Milodon pan with the oil pump pick-up, just over $310 USC. Do I need to get a Melling high volume oil pump to go with this combo.

joe_padavano

Well, if you're just sitting on the metal rims, then yes, 17s will sit higher than smaller wheels. If, however, you actually put tires on the rims, then it's the diameter of the TIRE that matters. Many low profile tires for larger rims are actually SMALLER in overall diameter than the original tires on that car.

Olds64

I bought a Melling HV oil pump for my car. You can buy one if you want to. I think the concern for Oldsmobiles is running a HV oil pump without a deep sump pan.

815Cutlass1972

Olds 64 if you still have the part numbers for the items you purchased please share them with me. Nice Joe LOL I guess I didn't express a complete thought.

Olds64

I bought the Milodon 7 quart pan.

Milodon 30305

I also bought the Milodon deep sump oil pump pick-up, and the Melling HV oil pump.

Milodon 18411

Melling M-22FHV

I tried to use a Moroso pan at first but I went through 3 different Moroso pans that leaked while the engine was sitting on the engine stand. Finally I swapped the Moroso pan for the Milodon and payed the $30 extra. I am happy with the Milodon pan.

matt69olds

If you or antone else have any with broken bellhousings or are otherwise junk, let me know.