I can see why that would, after all why go through the trouble to locate and install w30 fender liners just to paint them black...

But then again we don't know how many hands have been on the car. Could have been a previous owner put them in and the following owner didn't like the look. Or she was born with them and a future owner down the line didn't care for the look or its significance.

There it is.


Chevyiiguy, sounds like 15k may be the magic number...

That definitely has an effect especially in person.

 

Oh, and try to look on the D/L. Like, if the guy is like, sure, take things apart, let me know.

If you find it, take a picture, put it back, say you didn't, and then buy the car. If the card is found the price goes up.

 

Just an FYI, If those are original red inner fenders be VERY careful with them. The fact they were painted can be a GREAT thing. I have found the nicest red inner fenders with the least amount of fading under paint. Sadly, lots of people do major damage to them trying to take them off the car and getting the paint off. It is a very long process to do them right and take the paint off right. Just don't use paint striper or oven cleaner. Taking them off the car can be difficult without doing damage as well if the bolts are stuck around the wheel opening. Not doing it right will make the difference in thousands of dollars in value if they are capable of being restored.

 

Ok, first off did you verify the vin derivative (partial vin) on the engine block to match the car’s vin? Does it have F heads? If it has f heads and vin on the block verifies your starting out right. Trans will also have a partial vin on it, however you stated it wasn’t the original, just verify that. That TO on the rear end will be there under dirt or grease, possibly under ladder bar bracket if it’s original. 70 w30 had 3:42 or 3:91 gears only, m21 trans only. The few pics you posted in my mind gives it a very good chance of being a real car. The car was repainted at one time but the placement of the w30 emblems look very correct. I assume it’s a factory blue on blue car? Post a pic of the cowl tag, that will verify color combo etc, Lansing car etc. it should not have power brakes at all but front disc brakes, rear drum. Someone stated looking under the carpet fold, do that as a friend of mine found the broadcast card under their blue on blue w30 under there. Rust up in the rear saddle where it meets the frame is normal. If the body is as solid as you say, the car is complete and obviously not running then I personally would give the guy the 20k.. if the word gets around it will be gone.. feel free to PM me as I own. Verified numbers matching 70 w30

 

^^ This, if it’s a solid no wrecked complete car with f heads and all

 

This is what Patton was talking about on the stripes, see the gap between the fender chrome and stripe is missing on the car you are referring to..this car is correct

 

Thanks again for all the amazing thoughtsI had nothing new to report, but today I called the nice guy and he let me meet him and I went through the paperwork again. Was pretty exciting obviously, but ultimately to end in disappointment. there was no build sheet. It is a Midwest car on the protecto plate. It looks like the car did have an accident, but there are no specifics other than it had a windshield. That's why when I put it together in my head: with the bumper in the yard and the extra headlight brackets, I believe it had some body parts replaced. That would explain the crappy paint on the hood and maybe the repaint on the fenders and the brown doors, but obviously I have nothing to verify this.
I did make another offer on it, but I doubt they will take it. If we can meet in the middle, maybe I will strike a deal. They tend to be slow on letting it go as it has meaning to the family. if it was a 66 67 Nova hardtop or 69 Camaro it would already be on my trailer back to my place. :-)
I'd give anything to take this 70 442 car
Back and put it on the lift and just go through it for the needle in the haystack chance that I'd find that Build sheet. It appears to have house carpet in it, which makes it all the more slim that if the Build sheet was in the interior that it would still be with us today. There is no visible rust in the body and the doors shut beautifully.

My friends and I think the car is legit but all that is for now is wishful thinking.

At the end of all this, whether I end up with the car or not, I plan to provide some pictures. it's been fun. I've had no regrets with the time investment so far. Been hard to get the car off my mind.

thanks again for such a warm car forum. I greatly appreciate everyones thoughts.

 

You keep saying you're looking for a build sheet and I'm sorry to tell you, you're not going to find one. Lansing cars just don't have them -- I've heard of exactly one case of somebody finding a build sheet in a Lansing car, and that wasn't verified.

You might find an IBM trim card and for 1970 this could authenticate the car as a W-30. Fingers crossed for you on that if you decide to go forward with the purchase.

 

I get it. Sorry.
Build sheet, trim card...
Id gladly take anything. Nothing found to date.
thank you

 

They are uncommon but I have found them a few times. I have both A and B set for a Rallye 350 and know of another Rallye 350 with them. ALso had both A and B for a 70 W-30 before.

 

I am surprised no one has mentioned matching Trans numbers to the VIN yet. This was how I was able to verify my 70 W. Good luck but I also see 20 k is a deal as well. If you want a 70 442 W-30 or not, go for it.

 

Believe it is a stick car.

 

obviously you didn’t read my post to this, I outlined that point exactly..😊

 

Maybe there is writing on the inside of the fenders with 'W30" for the w30 emblems that are punched , not drilled from the factory.

 

Yes, but ... the bad news regarding that is in the 1st post.


👍

👍

My rides doors still closed like that after 45 years, then she got totalled. Definitely a good sign to a well maintained car.

No matter what is felt out there or is said on this site, without original documentation proof you can never stand on it being an original 70 W30. The missing transmission is a tremendous blow to validity.

You are obviously a Chevy guy and all else takes a back seat, I get it. To an Olds guy a 1970 stick 442 is a 10 on a scale of 1-10. A W30 is an 11. I say that because if you were an Olds guy you would of pulled the trigger already. The elixir for you is W30. As all serious muscle car guys know its significance. But this one you are looking at can only be regarded as one in name only, barring a miracle...

Hopefully if no one as of yet has 2nd dibs you can post all pertinent information on Classic Olds if you ultimately pass on her.

 

"Paperwork is extremely important for a 1970 442 W30 because without it, you cannot definitively prove it's a real W30, which can make a difference of tens of thousands of dollars in value. The most crucial piece of documentation is the original build card, a small punch card that verifies the factory options. Other vital documents include the original sales invoice, protecto plate, owner's manual, and build sheets."

Ai, by way of Hot Rod Magazine. https://www.hotrod.com/features/1970...ct-restoration

“There’s a very good internet forum that’s dedicated to 442s and W30s, so you can bounce a lot of questions you might have off of the experts that linger around,” says Mancini, pointing us towards the 442 W-30 forum at ClassicOldsmobile.com." Hot Rod Magazine October 2nd 2024.

And now you have gone full circle.

 

I don't guess I figured this forum out on how to properly respond to multiple comments. What I had just thought I posted was that I had nothing recently to add. someone asked again if they were F heads.Hopefully, I can make some progress toward the sale this week and I can share some more information with you guys
thanks again

 

Looks like an F to me. Looking forward to updates when they come.

 

Here is the thing..signs definitely point to this car having a strong possibility of being a true, but incomplete 70 w30. There may or may not be a broadcast card stuck somewhere. Be great if there was but buy it like it isn’t a possibility. If the body is solid, the car is complete without a ton of rust go after it. There is a guy who verifies these cars for a fee..It doesn’t 100% say the car is a w30 but his rocket report does have credence. Like I said before if it’s solid, check that engine derivative to see if it matches the car’s vin, if that’s a yes, find that rear end tm code, if that’s a yes, pay the guy his 20 grand. If you want it, if not work out a finders fee and someone on this site will pay it.. F heads alone are 4500-5500 a pair.. with the red fender wells and f heads, now if the vin derivative matches, then the date code of the head matches cars build date your definitely on the right path.

 

thanks for the reply
I read about that guy. Stephen Minore? I read the hot rod article on him. At some point $1000 per car evaluation plus travel expenses?

Yep. Verified engine block last numbers to the title vin. first thing I will/would do is check/verify the rear end. Again, body looked good. I will try to bring a magnet this week if I get to see the car soon.

 

Buy the car. Take off the heads and look at the stamping on the pistons and block. You will have your answer. As others have said, the F heads are a strong indicator. What are the Julian dates on the heads and how does that compare to the build of the car? 3.91 rear? What radiator is in the car? Water pump numbers? 6 blade fan with clutch? I get wanting to keep the pictures private, but in this case, it would be beneficial to help you determine what you are looking at.

How are the bolt impressions on the red inner fenders where it meets the core support? Do they look like they have been out before?

 

I will evaluate these things as soon as I can and report back

 

Minore knows some stuff, but, at the end of the day, he is just a dude.

 

I see headers in your picture so they may have cut the driver side red inner fender. If so that really sucks!

 

Isn’t every expert in every field? A dude with a plethora of knowledge and info on these cars. Curt Anderson is the guru on 66-67 cars yet he is also just dude. 🤷🏽

 

My point was that any testimony by any modern enthusiast should never be taken at the level that is factory documentation.

 

Point taken however when such docs aren’t available we must go off human beings who are experts in there field of study. Just a thought. However I do appreciate what you are saying and would not pay doc dollar for an expert opined car.

 

Steve is a really good dude. For a situation like this, his skills are perfect to assist.

It's unfortunate the microfiche with the data for the US cars isn't accessible. Just imagine...

Another angle I haven't seen mentioned is exploring previous owners of the car. Is there a POP or perhaps a name or address in the glove box? I've had luck in the past with searching for previous owners, and in most instances they either had documentation, vintage photographs, or in some cases both.

 

^^^ Also, (hate to keep harping on this point, but ...) info on previous owners may lead OP to discover the car's original point of sale. If it was first sold in Canada, W-30 status can easily be verified. There's only about a 10% chance of this but it's certainly worth investigating.

 

This site had educated me so much as I am not a numbers guy. I'm just blessed to have the non SS, or non numbers matching cars that I have.

I do have the name on the protecto plate. This is an interesting angle to consider pursuing- the original owner.

 

My dad has all the original documents to his W-30 he bought new. You never know, maybe those documents exist. Just don't pay the price of a documented car without documents. You can have all the experts look at it you want but without documents it is still the same car. There are certainly things one of us could tell you that points to it being real or not but that counts for nothing when it comes to the price to be paid.

 

No. When documents don’t exist, they don’t exist. And you don’t buy cars for a collection or resale without documentation. And you don’t hire “experts” to tell you it may be real when it’s possibly not. That’s why cars with bulletproof docs and owner history are worth what they are worth. And don’t need Minore to verify them.

 

Well Mecum and Barrett would easily prove you wrong..many cars with history, no docs sell for doc price’s, or a tad less in some instances... 20k for a solid 70 442 with f heads and matching vin derivative engine to vin, red old crusty inner fender wells is a no brainer.. but hey, you be you. Leave that purchase to someone else.

 

Hypothetical 1:
Potential buyer who isn't familiar with a '70 W-30: I don't know if it's a W-30 and I cannot find documents
Paid expert: Is it an automatic?
Potential buyer who isn't familiar with a '70 W-30: Yes, numbers matching automatic.
Paid expert: Does it have the OW tag?
Potential buyer who isn't familiar with a '70 W-30: Yes.
Paid expert: Then it's a W-30.

Hypothetical 2:
Potential buyer who isn't familiar with a '70 W-31: Looking at a W-31 and not sure if it's real because it doesn't have documentation:
Paid expert: Does the car have a return fuel line running along the frame without rubber hoses connecting the lines above the frame at the rear and non AC?
Potential buyer who isn't familiar with a '70 W-31: Yes.
Paid expert: You have a '70 W-31.

At some point, when you look at enough cars and document the part numbers and corresponding julian dates, you can get pretty close to being able to tell when something wasn't original to the car.

 

As Joe P. delights in pointing out every time I suggest this method as a way of authenticating a '70 W-30, OW tags are cheap and plentiful on E-bay.

 

wasn’t worth responding to that. Or that the fuel return line is reproduced too.

 

You just proved my point with your last sentence.

Sure, OW tags are on eBay, but not a single one of them is remotely close to an original. But, imagine if someone documented correct cars and could help pinpoint a specific OW tag sequential number based on a build date of a W-30. Or, explain the nuance in how a factory stamped OW tag looks compared to a reproduction. Feels like that might be worth something to a "casual" looking for a specialist's opinion, no?

Probably best you sit this one out and focus on the '65's. See you this weekend.