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I am planning to swap the 307 (from a 87 Custom Cruiser) into a different car.
I intend to keep the CCC carb and the 200R4 trans minus the AIR system (cat is not present). And I would use the Olds' original wiring harness.
My problem is this: there is a speed sensor at the back of the speedometer. (where the speedo cable from the transmission connects at the back of the speedometer)
I do not intend to use the Olds speedometer cluster and my requirement is to use the other car's original speedometer.
Has someone taken this sensor out of the olds speedometer and fixed it successfully to a different speedo unit? I could not find any diagrams or any useful information on this item. Could someone please advise?
I would strongly suggest you NOT use the CCC system in a swap. Use a conventional carb and distributor and an aftermarket converter lockup kit.
To answer your question, the VSS on the speedo head is an optical pickup that looks at a wheel that is built into the Custom Cruiser speedo. Adapting this to a different car requires rebuilding the speedo to add the wheel. There are aftermarket VSS units that are cable driven but most produce a different number of pulses per rev than does the one for the CCC system. No one swaps these, there is no demand for what you want, and thus no aftermarket company makes one.
Could you please elaborate more on why shouldn't I keep the CCC system? What disadvantages would I face in the long run? I would really appreciate your comments on this.
Could you please elaborate more on why shouldn't I keep the CCC system? What disadvantages would I face in the long run? I would really appreciate your comments on this.
Thank you
Keep in mind that the CCC system was designed in the late 1970s using computer technology available then. It actually has very little control over the operation of the engine. The only things it does are to control the ignition timing and the mixture ratio on the primary side of the carb (mixture of the secondaries is still mechanically controlled as on any other Qjet). The secondary functions are primarily emissions related - control of the EGR valve, evap purge, EFE system, A.I.R. switching, and vacuum breaks on the carb. And it controls converter lockup on the 200-4R. Keep in mind that the fuel and timing maps are designed to minimize emissions and maximize economy for the stock installation. Any changes in gearing, exhaust, vehicle weight, etc, will want changes to timing and mixture, which cannot be accomplished unless you burn a new PROM. If you choose not to use the EGR, you need to change mixture and timing to avoid pinging under light loads as the stock fuel and timing maps take advantage of the EGR to run lean mixtures and lots of advance under those conditions. Adjusting the CCC system must be done extremely precisely, and any variation in vacuum hoses or sensors will cause problems getting the system to run correctly. Frankly it is a LOT of trouble for no benefit in an engine swap situation.
Thank you Joe. Yes, with the swap the vehicle weight does change and what you said make sense.
So I guess I should look for a dizzy with mechanical and vacuum advance, a suitable carby and a setup for converter clutch. I think a simple idle-up solenoid would compensate the A/C clutch load.
Would be easier if I could find a complete step by step conversion to conventional setup.
1. I found the prices for a mechanical setup (non CCC Qjet carby and a dizzy) are a bit high compared to the fact that I bought the complete running 87 custom cruiser for $400!! I think I would need older style inlet manifold and exhaust manifolds too. (Didn't do much research on it though) I bought the car for the V8 engine and the automatic transmission. (delighted to find cruise control in it but I had no clue of this CCC system though)
2. The lockup mechanisms suggested on the site (manual switch etc.) don't seem too user friendly to me.
3. I actually like the engine/tranny combination because of the economy. I want reliability and economy and the V8 sound. Power is not high priority to me. So the EGR does not bother me too much.
4. The wiring harness is in good condition and I have the Chassis Manual as well. So I can re-use that too.
5. Planning to use factory A/C system too (I mean the compressor, condenser, drier etc.; not the blower fan and the interior bits; they will be interfaced to a different setup)
Following are the changes I would be doing:
1. AIR pump and the tubes are out since the CAT is absent. (no emissions tests)
2. Would be installing dual exhausts but planning to use the oxygen sensor mounted on an H pipe.
3. Diff would be 3.18 ratio Salisbury unit.
So despite your good advise, I am going cheap and difficult way and see how things will work out. If it fails, then I would bite the bullet and buy the mechanical bits like you suggested
So, here's the fist step. I dismantled both the Custom cruiser and the Holden speedo units. Found the optical device in the Olds unit. It appeared to me that the olds unit (that has two milage readings in parallel) has the spring loaded bell like thing (which is directly connected to the speedo needle) painted in matt black. And the wheel that rotates is silver. ( I guess all of this has to do with reflection)
So if I dismantle the other speedo unit, paint it's bell like thing (which is Silver now) in matt black and hook the optical unit in the in such a way that the wheel intercepts the black view, it should work right? Is the distance from the optical device to the wheel has to be identical in both cases? Any idea of the tolerance? The difference in diameter of the bell like thing is 0.175mm.
Optical device
Holden Speedo unit - front view
Holden Speedo unit - top view
Olds Speedo unit - front view
Olds Speedo unit - top view
Olds Speedo unit - that black unit and the wheel that rotates with the cable
Olds Speedo unit - where the optical device is fitted (rotating wheel is entering view)
Olds Speedo unit - where the optical device is fitted (rotating wheel is exiting view)
Optical device
Holden Speedo unit - thinking of painting matt black the radial face because the the wheel intercepts that face too
Holden Speedo unit - has no space to mount the optical device the same way through the metal plate in the back
The optical sensor typically needs a slot or some similar feature to recognize that the drum has made one full revolution. Does the other speedo head have this?
You will need to change the speedo driven gear in the trans to match the rear axle ratio, otherwise all your work will be for naught.
Leave the O2 sensor in the manifold where it is. It does not matter that the sensor is only in one manifold. Note that the stock intake is a dual plane, so half the cylinders on each bank get fed from the RH side of the carb and half from the left. There is no need to move the O2 sensor and actually, since this is not a heated sensor, it needs to be as close to the exhaust ports as possible. Simply cap the crossover port on the RH manifold, which is exactly what Olds did on dual exhaust small block cars.
If the system is operating correctly, EGR is only active at part throttle light loads. Leaving it in place does not effect performance.
Used non-CCC Qjet cores can be had for $30. HEI distributors with vac advance for $15. You not only can use your current intake, you must due to the tiny ports on the 7A heads.
If all you care about is "reliability and economy and the V8 sound. Power is not high priority to me" the least expensive thing to do is to get an amp and speakers under the back bumper. Far easier than this engine project.
The optical sensor typically needs a slot or some similar feature to recognize that the drum has made one full revolution. Does the other speedo head have this?
The other speedo has the similar drum (in silver) and a '[' shaped metal plate that rotates across it's diameter with respect to the cable, just like the olds unit. The olds has the optical device mounted on the back of the speedo and it looks at the top of the drum. I am thinking of mounting the device on the housing of the other speedo unit so that the device will look at the circumference of the drum. The only difference I see is that the speedo needle on the olds has more tension than the other unit and which is why the other unit's needle makes like 270 degree revolution with increasing speed whereas the olds unit does like 120 degrees. My only doubt is the distance from the optical unit to the drum/wheel.
Leave the O2 sensor in the manifold where it is. It does not matter that the sensor is only in one manifold. Note that the stock intake is a dual plane, so half the cylinders on each bank get fed from the RH side of the carb and half from the left. There is no need to move the O2 sensor and actually, since this is not a heated sensor, it needs to be as close to the exhaust ports as possible. Simply cap the crossover port on the RH manifold, which is exactly what Olds did on dual exhaust small block cars.
Still did not got myself to the exhaust scenario knowing that I can manage with the existing setup for the moment.
Used non-CCC Qjet cores can be had for $30. HEI distributors with vac advance for $15. You not only can use your current intake, you must due to the tiny ports on the 7A heads.
If all you care about is "reliability and economy and the V8 sound. Power is not high priority to me" the least expensive thing to do is to get an amp and speakers under the back bumper. Far easier than this engine project.
Well, you see Joe, the Holden HQ bodywork, paintwork and interior work is hugely expensive. Will share it's album if possible. I started with a total rust bucket ruined by the PO with a diesel engine in it. It had a Mazda van's dashboard and seats. The panels behind the dash was cut and not found. Many of the original trim I had to import from Australia and that was also very expensive. But I took that project because it is so rare here and I have been searching for a HQ Kingswood for 10 years.
Adding to that, maintaining two Alfa Romeos is again expensive (no parts in the country so everything has to be imported and the tax is 45% on CIF even for used parts). I am a car enthusiast since a kid but my sensible other half is not happy with my expensive hobby so I really have to keep costs at minimum. If not for the tax problem, I would ideally get a sbc from a wreck yard because it came with a sbc 350 as a factory option. Anyway, I only could get an Olds hearse (so cheap as well) so I decided to stay happy with it since Olds is also in GM family with Holden and Chevy. I am not the show off idiot with stickers, big wheels and stereo
That aside, I really admire your knowledge on this subject and very grateful for your contributions. I also should study more on non-CCC conversions too. You remind me of another very knowledgeable person in the AlfaBB forum. Cheers!
Last edited by kuseetha; June 26th, 2017 at 09:42 PM.
According to my current understanding, the speedo optical sensor (SOS) should look at a non reflective surface and the rotating drum has to intercept that view with respect to the speedo cable turning speed.
non reflective, charcoal like surface of the Olds unit
So what I did to the other speedo unit was dismantling it, masked and sprayed matt black from an aerosol paint can I had.
Masked the surface suitably
Sprayed paint
However, the finish was still slightly reflective and not as matt as the Olds unit.
So I painted it with red zinc primer which is 100% non reflective when dry
Next thing I did was measuring the depth at which the drum rotates and measure the protruding length of the optical sensor. The difference is how close these two sit together when in action. The result was around 2.6mm.
Then I made a few measurements on the other speedo unit housing and melted a hole using an old soldering iron.
The SOS looks at a non reflective surface and the rotating drum intercepts it
Now the most important question: How do I make sure this setup picks up signals? I only got this.
May 8th, 2017, 02:29 AM
