costpenn

These things are never easy. For those following my thread in the major builds forum, the only odd thing I found on my car before I bought it was that it had a external voltage regulator mounted on the firewall exactly where one is supposed to be for a ext. regulated non 442 Cutlass. The wiring harness to the internally regulated alternator the car has on it has never been jacked with, and all the documentation on the car (broadcast sheet and protecto plate imprint) as well as the VIN support that this is a real 70 W-30 car and I think it absolutely confirms it is a 442.

Well today I started taking a close look at that regulator. It is a Delco Remy stagger script unit with Made In The USA below it on the cover. it has the radio capacitor still attached with "DR" in the middle of the barrel end and 1961919 and .5MF surrounding it.

The paint on the unit looks original to me - kind of a crappy water based black paint and the frame below it does not look like it has ever had overspray on it. The sheet metal bolts that attach it to the firewall all match each other and kind of have a washer built onto them. The have no head markings, but they are kind of unique looking because the centers of the bolts have a convex look.

Most thrilling, or problematical, is today I looked at the markings on the frame itself. They are

12V N 1119
0A. 515

I've done a little online research and determined this would be correct for a Oldsmobile (and other brands -but it does not exclude Olds) regulator, coded to have been made in Jan 1970, and my car was built last week of Jan 1970.

I have no way of confirming this for sure, but it appears that my car had a external VR incorrectly installed at the factory, and it was simply left on the wall.

It's kind of a cool story, and I'm thinking of reinstalling it back on the car, but I'm also afraid that in the clone/fake infested swamp our hobby has become, someone will claim my car is a fake - possibly hurting the future value of the car.

What do you guys think - would an educated future buyer have this issue seriously put doubt in his mind about the authenticity of the car, or would it be best to leave it off, and eliminate the holes in the firewall? Has anyone else ever seen another car with the same issue?


Will put some pics up later today.


Thanks,


Joe

Paladin31

Joe, #1) you don't know me from Adam, so take this as if I were trying to buy your car, if I were to see ANYthing hinting that you had removed the regulator & patched the holes.. you know where it goes from there. And [let alone the fact you've publicly stated it's there]...honesty best policy etc... it would be harder to argue the cover up. Take pics document what you have & see. I say leave it alone. Deflate any argument with the truth, if anyone ever needs to delve into it. My .02C. Regards. Brett

TK-65

Take photos, keep said part, and put it in a box on the shelf.

If your car for some reason left Lansing without one W30 fender emblem, and it was never installed for some odd reason after the fact, would you leave those holes in the fender or put a new emblem on during restoration?

If the regulator wasnt supposed to be there, remove it and dont put it back on.

dc2x4drvr

Like TK said, take pics, then put the reg in a drawer, install new wiring harness as required..

Bernhard

If I was restoring the car I would remove the regulator and weld up the holes. If I was not restoring the car I would remove the regulator and not touch the holes.

I have a 69 442 post stick car bought from the original owner with the protect O plate and GM Canada documentation.

Car came with cutlass S symbols on the door panels. The door panels have never been off the car, They will be removed for the proper Rocket emblems.

TEB

More problematic might be that this was your 666th post

wmachine

Truth gets lost because people bury and ignore it. If you're more concerned about monetary value than the truth, by all means make it go away. I think you know from the way I answered this how I feel about it.

dc2x4drvr

Well, the truth is the car wasn't available with an external voltage regulator..just my .02

My442

I am one of the few folks on this site that actually worked in a GM plant "back in the day".

I saw a 1973 Cutlass with a formal rear window quater panel on one side, and a colonnade quarter panel on the other side. The body made it to the trim area before it was caught.

The body was pulled off the line, and fixed. Someone got a car that had major body work before it was sold.

Lots of errors on the line made it out the door, especially on Mondays and Fridays......

wmachine

But the truth is his car has one, and no proof that it wasn't added. And he has gone to a lot of trouble to determine there is reason to question it and not just fall back on "should have been".
The previous post by My442 is a case in point.

costpenn

Lance, the harness is correct for the internal regulator alternator. Nothing has ever been hooked up to that regulator on the wall - see following pics

costpenn

Time to put on some Black Sabbath.

costpenn

Like I said, I'd rather leave it on and have it be a conversation piece - I think it's pretty cool I got a factory mistake on a W-30! However, some Einstein will swear up and down that it is incorrect and say my car is a fake, blah, blah, blah. I guess, the guy who will really want the car will know what's up and maybe he'll appreciate it even more because of this peculiarity.

costpenn

Joe, the alternator on the car, so far, is the only incorrect piece on it. It was a 74 350 Corvette low amp internally regulated. I've already got a 1100890 on the way.


I took those Delco Moraine calipers off this afternoon. The LH, 5463636 is dated coded 337, and the RH, 5463637 is 351.

costpenn

Here's those regulator pics

dc2x4drvr

Joe, if the reg was never hooked up I'd leave it as is, i wonder if the body was planned as a plain Cutlass, and then changed on the line?

Olds442redberet

Make it correct. Remove the darn thing and put it in a drawer.

Octania

so, it never had a wiring harness on it, right?
terminals are weathered like the rest of the unit?

I'd document it, stash it, and put the screws back in the holes with a dab of sealer.

TK-65

Just remove it. If you plan to have this car judged at an OCA event you will and should get gigged for it. It was not supposed to be there. Id do it just to save on arguing with people about it.

MDchanic

That's the bottim line: If you think it's interesting enough that you want to be able to tell people about it, then leave it there, but if you most certainly do not want to have yet another argument with some yahoo who insists that your completely documented 442 is actually a clone, then make it go away, for the sake of your own sanity.

- Eric

costpenn

Thanks for all the input. I think I'm going to wind up leaving the holes on the firewall, but not remounting it, and maybe doing a little display to put in the trunk at shows with the story and the regulator in the as found condition.

I see some ex GM employees are CO members. Does anyone know the vehicle assembly process well enough to know if my theory is even possible? Did 442's & W-30's come down the intermixed with regular Cutlasses, and when was the VR mounted?

wmachine

That is my take on it. You have done extensive research and documentation on it. It is what it is. And considering all that you have found, I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks of it.

TK-65

And in the grand scheme of things its a very small part. It not like you found a car with the wrong engine installed. It being there was not noticed at the plant, its probably not going to be noticed by anyone that doesnt own a W30. It being or not being there isnt going to make the car worth anything more than it already is.

jensenracing77

I like things like this. I would mount it back on for the same reason. It is a cool story. I am inside a Semi trailer factory daily. I see things built wrong all the time and let go that way. I can see this happening in the auto industry real easy. When 90% of what comes down the line gets one it is real easy to goof up and install one on something that you shouldn't. Even a new employee told "put this here" and later being told "you idiot, Not on these cars"

rocketraider

Paul, Kurt and Eric have the right take. Cars were built by humans and humans make errors. If that regulator is date coded to the car's build date and you have research backing it up that it is original to the car, I'd leave it as is and let the so-called "experts" pull their hair out.

I learned many years ago that the primary focus in any factory is to get the product out the door and sold with as little warranty work as possible, not to satisfy some AR fussbudget's idea of what is correct 40 years down the road. If the fussbudget wasn't there when the car was built...

I ordered a 1984 TransAM that came off the transporter with a TransAM fender on left and a Camaro fender on right. I would not accept the car because I figured if they goofed up that bad on appearance item, what did they do mechanically?

If they think GM was bad about factory mistakes, they should see some of what Mopar put out.

costpenn

Thanks to all for your replies. This is why I've always liked the Olds crowd. Helpful, and not arrogant unlike the fiberglass know it alls, or the Pontirag nut jobs.

stevengerard

keep it on there. Every car show I go to someone tries to disprove my car as a W30, though most enjoy taling to me about it there is always, and I mean always, someone who either knows more than me (and usually doesn't) or would have done the car differently.

I've mentioned this before so for others forgive me for bringing it up again but I think it relates. My washer bottle is mounted on the drivers side. Factory manual says all 455s get moved to passenger side whether there is AC or not. There are no holes on the passenger side of the red inner fender wells, thus the bottle is staying in the wrong place. I have not owned the car since new so to those who question me about everything I just apologize for not being the original owner and let them know how I got the car and what I have done. I'd leave it mounted and tell your story - its a cool story.

costpenn

I can see the washer bottle being an issue. Every 455 was an exception to the rule of having it on the LH side, and it would fit just fine. The 72's are even more problematical. My Jan 70 build is on the RH side, just today took the remains off - 43 years 11 months after being installed.

Have you heard of Ladendorf Motors - the dealership that originally sold my car?

BlackGold

I'm not an ex GM employee, but I'll assure you that, not only did 442s and W-30s come down the 1970 Lansing final assembly line intermixed with Cutlasses, they were intermixed with every single model Oldsmobile made, with the exception of the Toronados, which had their own line.

Koda

I'll second that. I'm not ex-GM, but I work at a different car company currently, and the idea is to have a ratio of cars, that way you can adjust to sales demand by only changing the parts, not the people, equipment, or conveyance of parts/vehicles.

The exception is special lots like H/Os and maybe the W-30s (which I think were only Lansing) that got built as a one shot deal.

rr69ho

Very interesting story, but you gents haven't seen anything like I have waiting in the wings.

BlackGold

Even with special lots, I doubt the assembly line was scheduled to run too many in a row. Doing so would might require the line to run slower -- which slows down ALL production, not just the special lot.

I bet the smart assembly line extended this concept to regular options, too. For example, let's say that installing the cruise-control option required an extra 28 seconds at one particular station on the line -- a station which is also performing other tasks. If they schedule too many consecutive cars with cruise control, then that particular station will fall behind. but if they always schedule, say, at least two non-cuise cars between cruise-equipped cars, they might keep up just fine.

There were Manufacturing Engineers dedicated to doing nothing but time studies, looking for ways like this to speed up the line.

Koda

We do do that, and call it streamlining. One example is no hybrids twice in a row, or something like that. Often the low running vehicle may be a second overcycle, and the worker will make up on the next five.

Scotty69w30

Scotty69w30

it was in my prospect I’ll, I bought my 79 hurst there