w30hurstolds

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image2.jpgEvery body likes a good detective job. Back in 1980 I bought my first car 1970 442 convertible it was the love of my life. It took me 2 years to restore it and I used it as a every day car until 1984. I was in need of money to go to collage so I ended up selling it. I lost contact for over 30 years until I got a call in 2009 from the 4 th owner to see if I would be interested in buying my car back. But working in the construction industry that was the wrong time for me. So it ended up going over seas. Doing some searching I ended up finding the car and staying in contact with the owner. Here is the detective work Is the documentation real or fake!

Allan R

Can't read the document, but according to the second picture it's been cloned into something it never was. That's something a lot of guys here feel strongly about because it screams 'This car is fake' if someone like you knows the history of it.

So, good work detective. Personally I don't care if it's got Pace car decals on it because that can all be changed very quickly. As long as it's not being represented as a 1970 Y74 all's good

EDIT: if that document is to suggest it's the bill of sale for the car when it was new? It's totally bogus.

w30hurstolds

No its a real pace car

w30hurstolds

Part 2 here it is today

Allan R

Would love to see the cowl tag
So is your name is E. E. Stewart?

Although the document says its a true 'surviver' (mis spelled BTW, 'survivor') that's not really true. A survivor car by definition has never had a repaint or restoration.

Don't get me wrong - it's a beautiful looking car but you never mentioned it being a Pace car at the start of this thread. That would have been helpful, as the picture you have shown first is simply a white 442 vert without the rear deck wing and decals circa 1984?? before you sold it?? Presentation plaque claims only 1 repaint after first 20 years of ownership and you sold it after 14? So that first picture had to be when you owned it before the first paint right? The invoice logos are more indicative of the 1980/90's than 1970 from my experience working with dealers and the way the RPO codes are laid out is also indicative of the 80/90's

w30hurstolds

No that was the first owner I was the 3rd owner in 1980. That document was not with me when I bought the car.It appeared sometime later

w30hurstolds

Here is the car in 1970 with the original owner

MDchanic

My opinion: The bill of sale is fake.

I do not have an extensive knowledge of literature to draw on, so someone who does may correct me, but, here's the bill of sale posted above:


You will notice that the bill of sale carries the "modular square" GM dealer sign logo, with Oldsmobile on the left, GMC on the right, and a black blank in the middle.

First, I am suspicious of the black blank element - this just does not look right to me.

Second, I do not believe that GM had gone to the "modular square" sign-style logo yet in 1970.

Third, I believe that a bill of sale such as this would have been computer printed, and would not have used lower case characters or this "elite"-style typeface.

Fourth, it seems odd that the salesman is "Mr. Nat Fischer" while the customer is only "E. E. STEWART" (no honorific).

Fifth, that salesman's signature looks very suspicious. It looks like it had to have taken a minute to write. It has no fluidity.

Aside from those things, it looks fine.

For examples of GMC truck logo usage:








Notice that the "GMC-in-a-box" logo first shows up in 1971, and the "modular square" logo doesn't show up until 1973.



- Eric

w30hurstolds

here os the protect o plate

MDchanic

So what's your point? Are you trying to say that this stuff is real or fake?

- Eric

w30hurstolds

I think its fake but the new owner is led to believe it is real

sixty9olds

I don't see an official Pace car decal on the door. So, what is the point?

allyolds68

I'm always really skeptical of claims of "found" paperwork. John Ebbs had a nice saffron 68 W30 convertible with no documentation that was sold and is now commanding top dollar because the documentation was "found". I know there are people on here that believe it but I'd have to see some pretty convincing documentation to prove that happened.

MDchanic

Yes, it's fake, and fairly obviously, too.

Tell the new owner he got conned.

- Eric

ps: anyone else care to back me up on this?

MDchanic

If you had not known it before, the situation should have been clear by the time you finished typing this sentence.

- Eric

allyolds68

The new owner really didn't get conned. Assuming the car has Y74 on the cowl tag that's all you really need to prove it's a 70 pace car. I'd be more interested in seeing paperwork that supports the "pace car decal delete" that it apparently had. I know someone that has a 69 Camaro pace car with a decal delete that he bought new. He has all the paperwork and I know that the decal delete was documented.


I don't know if I'm buying that the logo would have changed yet. The 70 GMC logo you posted is close to the same as the invoice. I would think the dealers would have switched over to this logo by April of 70.


edit:


I just went back and read the whole post again. Is it a Y74 pace car or not??????


The original pic from 70 is clearly the pace car stripes without the door decals

Gary M

Don't know if this helps but this is what my invoice looks like.

MDchanic

It sure took a lot of effort to forge that documentation. Why would the seller go through the trouble if it wasn't going to net him some cash?
If the car sold for more with the parers than without, then, yes, the buyer got conned.


I am no expert on this, but if you look at the sales receipt, it isn't just the "GMC in a box" logo (which started in 1971) that's there, it's the uniform square-format logos for all GM divisions, which, I believe, were introduced in 1972 or '73. These logos mimicked the new internally-lighted dealer signs, which were all square, and all the same size, and which allowed GM to make a single size sign unit for all divisions. The layout was consistent, with the division name in its characteristic script across the bottom, and its logo centered above. In the case of GMC, the "letters in a box" was the logo, so the word "Trucks" was placed underneath.


I know exactly nothing about pace cars, so I assumed you could delete the lettering, but I agree, the original photo shows it gone, and I would also be interested to know more about this.

- Eric

69ishHoliday

In 1969 there were many Camaro convertible pace cars, most of which didn't have door decals. The orange hounds tooth interior and orange stripes were distinct enough!

MDchanic

Gary, ASSuming that your 1971 invoice is positively legit (which I do assume), then we notice that the divisions represented by the dealer are each printed in their own unique way, and not in a uniform format in identical boxes, like the later "signage" logos I am taking about, which is seen in the OP's example.




I will also note that the printing on yours was clearly done by a typewriter, thus (if yours is absolutely genuine), invalidating my original point about the typeface being in Elite with lower case characters.

- Eric

allyolds68

Why did the dumbass that had the Canadian Cutlass 4 speed Pace Car that was recently at auction feel the need to fake Canadian documents to add things like the rear spoiler when everyone knows it couldn't have a spoiler and anyone can get the original documents and prove it was fake?


Who knows, people do stoopid ****.


But, like I asked, was it an original Y74 or not? That would obviously be the only reason to fake the invoice.

71 455x

Excellent Mid winter topic to decode, Real or Made up Sales documents..........

TK-65

Cant say anything about the original doc but dealer order forms were far from identical. The logos used were not identical either. A lot of Oldsmobile dealers used the old world logo, the crest logo, and the early rocket logo on their paperwork. Even when said logo was outdated and replaced.

MDchanic

Yes, but they couldn't go forward in time and use a logo that hadn't been invented yet.

- Eric

w30hurstolds

When I bought the car in 1980 all I had was the protect o plate that was it. The car did sell at that dealer ship. But the option it had on where ps,pb,air and dual gate. now you see it is loaded up with option. Does anybody know what the end price would be with those option.By looking at this document I had to second guess my self but I have photo proof on the option.

442scotty

I may have missed it but has the firewall plate been altered to add options? There is only one place that does this to my knowledge and it would simple enough to call them to see if the plate was reproduced by them with added options.

Allan R

Still waiting. Should be something like this




I've never seen a protecto plate that showed 00000 on the mileage. It had to have at least 1 or 2 miles (maybe more) on it just from being hostled around the factory parking lots.

MDchanic

+1. Another nail.

- Eric

Mikes442

Decals could have been delivered in the trunk because most people didn't like the graphics.


On the original owners picture:


Look at the tires, they are GOODYEAR SPEEDWAY tires.


The decals are correct Red/Black/Red.


Yes the original bill of sale is fake with those Logos.


I'm thinking that after you sold it, someone went to the Dealer and asked them to write up a NEW bill of sale since they had the protect-o-plate.

Allan R

That would bring the dealership ETHICS into question. If the owner HAD asked for a replacement, there should have been a statement on the BOS stating 'Duplicate - replacement for lost BOS', and 'Options listed not guaranteed', and the date should have been the current date. One more thing - the NEW VEHICLE should have been amended to say - as reported by owner. I'm still inclined to call BS on that BOS. There's no date or witness signature. Even on typwritten BOS, that would be required for legal purposes. This BOS just doesn't pass any smell test. [a cursory test of something's authenticity or legitimacy]

Any of you guys good at math? Look at that BOS. The numbers that are typed match the written in discount. WHO would not put that all in a mix of typeset and writing if the BOS amount was already known??? Makes no sense at all.

Also, based on the 1970 SPECS if that car had all those options it would have MSRP closer to 4700.00 - not almost 5400 the way I see it, and some of the listed options were included in the 442 vert package to start with. That car would be more expensive than a base 1970 Toronado or 98.


So with that being said, ask your friend for a picture of his cowl tag with that plaque of his in the picture so we know it wasn't just pulled off the web.

jwsolds

No doubt it's a real car but your statement here pretty much sums it up. IMO an owner made this up to document all the added options and make car more valuable to gain upon resale. Anybody can make a window sticker but they are more present and easier to detect so a more convincing fake would be this. I've seen many bill of sale documents and not going to devulge more info about it because that just helps people make better fakes.

This is one reason I do not like reproduction paperwork like blank window stickers. I am reluctant to display my cars documents anymore because the way people copy and reproduce fake paperwork nowdays. You being the previous owner you think the person who produced this found the owners before you to retrieve it? I doubt it. If it was me I would investigate further without devulging your history on it. Most likely fraud was committed and if so, I'm sure that guy will continue to do it for $$$$$.

But I could be wrong and it may be legit. Or you just might be the one to prove someone actually did wrong and mislead someone which is fraud. Which fake documents are not good for the car hobby and people should be delt with accordingly if used improperly for gain.

w30hurstolds

Here is a picture of the so called window sticker and build sheet. In all my 442 I have never found a build sheet, like the one in the picture.

Allan R

Well if that's from that 1970 Pace car, it's the FIRST build sheet I've ever seen from Lansing. Any chance you can
1. get a close up pic of the build sheet so we can verify it's from Lansing and has the Y74 option?
2. get close up pics of the Olds service invoices and dates on them?

w30hurstolds

no I ve tried every thing

nsnarsk65cutlass

I agree with Eric on this one.The gmc trucks logo is a dead giveaway.imo

w30hurstolds

Yes that the same documents for the pace car

GAOldsman

Hmmm if that build sheet is for the pace car then we do in fact have a needle in a haystack here. As for the P-O-P, I believe it's real. 00000 miles upon delivery is unlikely but possible. As for the bill of sale, like Jasen said every dealer had his own. I'd have to see better pics of the stuff to say for certain on most claims here.