Charlie_brown

I know very little about transmissions and the little i do know is from reading write ups which IMO is someone elses opinion and not always facts. My car is a 1986 442 with stock rear end (3.73 posi). the motor is 1976 455 .30over forged kb pistons, 284h comp cam(requires a 3k stall), stock crank & rods, c heads, 750 carb. Im not sure of how much power it'll be putting down yet but needless to say i need a transmission to hold up to it. I'm not sure of what transmission to go with and up till now have only used a th350. The car will be used as street/strip and the hear and there weekend cruising. I currently have a th350 and found a guy(who comes highly recommended) who wants $500.00 for a complete performance rebuild. I only considered going with the th350 after my neighbor told me the 200-4r would loose hp because it was overdrive. I also found a shop that will do a full performance build up of a 200-4r + a torque converter for $900.00. And the same guy who i mention would do the th350 priced me $700.00 for a performance build on a 700-r4. I would much rather have overdrive since i plan on taking a once in a while out of town drive. What would be the best choice.

svnt442

I would go with the 200 4R but make sure he does all the upgrades needed to live behind 500+ ft lbs of torque. If not you'll end up stranded.
$900 is really cheap for a build like that so you need to ask plenty of questions as to what he intends on replacing. The input shaft is of paramount importance. It in no way can handle the power you're going to be hitting it with.

joe_padavano

Here's someone else's opinion (mine!)

First, your neighbor apparently has no clue as to how overdrive transmissions work. The OD will NOT make you lose HP, but it will reduce RPMs while cruising at highway speeds. On the track you'll never shift into fourth, so I'm at a loss to explain how it hurts you.

A better comparison is to look at the gear ratios of each trans:

http://www.maliburacing.com/auto_tranny_id.htm

You will note that both the OD transmissions have a steeper first gear than the TH350, which will improve off-the-line acceleration. Since it has a lower first gear than the 200-4R, the 700R4 will accelerate more quickly in first, but then there is a cavernous drop to second as compared to either of the other two transmissions. Some people consider this a problem for the drag strip since it can drop the RPMs too low at the shift point and slow the car down. It turns out that a torque motor like the 455 is probably less sensitive to this than a 350 Chebby. All three have a 1:1 third, so there's no difference there. Finally, the two OD transmissions have similar OD ratios, with the 200-4R slightly higher (lower numerically) and thus providing lower highway RPMs.

Of course, both the OD transmissions will require rebuilding to survive behind the 455. Both are well supported in the aftermarket. The turbo Buick crowd has found and fixed all the weak points in the 200-4R, which is successfully used in 9 second GNs. My personal preference is the 200-4R because it is an easier swap into an Olds and doesn't require the adapter plate (700R4s only come in the Chevy or metric bellhousing bolt patterns).

Charlie_brown

This is the company i was going to go with for the 200-4r. I called and spoke to a tech and explained my problem he said that this would work.

Stage 1
https://id414.van.ca.siteprotect.com...ex.php?cPath=1

captjim

I agree with Joe, I HATE the 1-2 shift on the 700. So, if you decide on that you need OD, go with the 200.

That said, contemplate how much highway driving that you will be doing. We have 3.73s in our 71, it is great around town, but the car hardly ever sees the Interstate. The TH350 will be cheaper to build and converters are less. Also, IIRC not all shifters have 4 forward gears. OD is definitely the best of both worlds, just make sure you need it before you spend the extra cash.

cutlassefi

X2 and with that said the 200-4R would still be my choice hands down. Parts are readily available (like Joe said the GN boys have seen to that) and they use the same converter as early 700R4's.

68conv455

I like the 2004r. With that said, spend some time on the turbo buick board (but always come back here). These guys beat their 2004r's senceless.
I'd also be wary of a rebuilder that calls this trans a 200R4 when it is a 2004R.
I would think $900 gets you a stock rebuild which will not be adequate. You will need hardened "hard parts" in your trans with that motor. Clutches and shift kits are not enough. The $1800 GN special gets you closer to where you need to be but when you get there you might as well contact some of the trans builders that supply the GN crowd. CK performance is one of them. Also, you will find out that this is not the least expensive route.
Good luck and let us know what you decide to do.

Charlie_brown

Well given that i already have the crossmember and wouldn't need to cut a drive shaft i think i'm sticking with my original plans to go with the 200-4r. Unfortunately I'm in the process of trying to move to orlando in order to go to UTI so spending $1800.00 on a trans is completely out of the question.

I was doing a little bit of reading today and found this link
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/tran.../200rebld.html

It doesn't look like something i can do at home so i'll have to weigh my options out and see what i can afford. thanks

68conv455

A 350 and a 2004R both use the same driveshaft and yoke.
The 700R4 is a different story.

Charlie_brown

WOW! let me take my foot out my mouth first i looked last night and called ck performance and was looking on some gn websites and from what i gathered the shop i was originally going to go with the internals on there trans wouldn't live long behind the 455. And to even build my own i would still be in the range of $1500. I think i'm going to stick with what i know and keep my th350 and spend my money on something else.

Lady72nRob71

How long of a drive and how often? If you can crunch some of the numbers, you might find the cost and effort not worth it.

I though about the OD swap also, as I want to do an occasional 2k mile road trip every several years. When the math was done, I decided to leave the car original and just pay for the extra gas. Of course you do have a 455 and not a 350 like I do...

Olds64

You will be happy with your TH 350. Just put a shift kit and filter in it and drive it another 150,000 miles.

Charlie_brown

The trips i plan on would rarely take me out of FL. So no 2k trips here more like 500 lol. But i wasn't so concerned about the mpg, but i read somewhere that having an non overdrive trans and the rpm the motor would turn would cause the bearings and motor internals to wear faster than they regular would. basicly shortening the life on the motor. I wanna say it was an article in carcraft or somewhere.

svnt442

Keep in mind when these cars were made there were no overdrive transmissions. All they could do was put in tall gear ratios (2.56) to get good highway manors. Of course this killed performance so there were the compromise ratios (3.08, 3.23, 3.42) to "fill the gap".

nzjkb5

Charlie Brown, you are correct that an overdrive transmission will reduce engine wear when on the highway. Lets do a little math. With a 3.73 gear and assuming a 26" tall tire, your engine is spinning roughly 3300 rpm on the highway at 70 mph without overdrive. A 500 mile trip = over seven hours at 70 MPH. The 0.67 overdrive in the 200-4R reduces the engine speed to about 2200 RPM at 70. That reduces the number of revolutions your engine turns by 33%. On a 7 hour trip, your engine will turn over 457,000 fewer RPMs with the overdrive (7 hours = 420 minutes x 3300 RPMs = 1,386,000 revolutions x 0.33 overdrive = 457,380). That is where the wear reduction comes in.

Another point to consider is the noise level on the highway when for seven hours. I love the sound of a high performance V8 as much as anybody, but seven hours at that RPM can wear on you. After the first 500 mile trip at 3300 rpm, you might decide that you don't want to do that again, and decide not to drive your 442 on the next trip, just because it is too tiring. In that way, the overdrive may enable you to enjoy your car more.

You just have to decide if the cost is worth the benefit of having the overdrive on those long trips.

joe_padavano

Everyone seems to overlook the fact that the highway isn't the only place that the OD transmissions help. Both the 200-4R and the 700R4 have a steeper first gear than either the TH350 or the TH400. That helps with off-the-line acceleration. Install the OD trans and you get BOTH improved acceleration AND improved mileage. What's not to like?

matt69olds

The first 200r4 I built was with that exact article, it went into a 12 sec GN. The only parts of the article I disagree with is omitting half the return springs in the direct clutch (you need all the spring to prevent centrifugal apply), the 8 clutches in direct (clutch and steels are to thin to absorb the heat, I use 6 red Alto clutches in the ones I build) and blocking the accumulators. You can block the accumulators, but the shift will be EXTREMELY hard unless you run a loose converter. If this is your first trans overhaul, the 2004r isn't the one you want to do. They aren't difficult, the just require the correct tools

nzjkb5

Joe, I wasn't overlooking the advantage of the lower first gear, I just didn't think he needed much extra help off the line with a 3.73 rear end already. You are right, though, when I do the math. The general rule of thumb I have seen for most street cars is that a 10:1 total first gear ratio (trans gear x axle ratio) is about the optimum, and with the TH350, 2.52 x 3.73 = 9.40; with the 200-4r, 2.74 x 3.73 = 10.22. The 700R4 is 3.06 x 3.73 = 11.41, which would provide a short first gear, too short for my preference. The math is really starting to make the 200-4R look like the most attractive option all the way around (just like you said in the beginning, Joe!), if Charlie_brown is willing and able to spend the extra $$. Plus it doesn't require an adapter or have the other headaches of installing a 700R4.

Texas Jim

I've had the three different trannys and overall, I like the 200. Never liked the 700 too much, even when everyone and his brother swore by them. Ofcourse the th350 and th400 are good basic trannys and cheaper to build. If you have the money, go w/ the 200, if not, stick w/ the th350. As long as it's built strong enough to handle the engine you have and driving you do, it's fine. The 200 is an easier swap from the th350 and th400. It's very adaptable/universal overall. But if you're going to school, first things first, get the education. The automotive happenings will be there after you've completed your education, which is the most important thing f/ any young (or older) person. Even f/ us older, I mean middle aged guys , if nothing else, it makes life more interesting. Will make you drop any idea of using the 700 tranny also. LOL. Best of luck w/ the car. Sincerely.

dknox

have a 1979 cutlass 350 rocket turbo 350 out of a 1970. trans just went bad no drive?i have a 200r will it hold the 350 or is it only a matter of timebefore it gives too.holly750 and street domanator lilcam hooker headers