Macadoo

Any opinions on specific carb spacers? Height? Material? It's likely I'll need one to free up space for the tv cable connection. I would think a heat insulating spacer would be wise. Or no?

oddball

There can be power gains, but heavily dependent on your configuration. If your exhaust crossover is plugged then the heat isn't nearly as much of an issue. A spacer MAY be required on a standard Performer. Probably don't want to go too thick unless you have a specific goal in mind.

A TH350 with internal O/D? I would be suspicious to say the least. Maybe he's running 35" tires or something. I think I've seen a few alternate ratios available for TH350, but they're rare, and usually to tune for the strip.

Macadoo

Thanks oddball. Not making any decision on a spacer yet, just thinking things through.

Yeah, I had wondered about his wheel size after I made that post. He runs an outstanding garage and is restoring several classic rides himself so i would have thought he would know, ya know? But maybe not. From what I can tell using google, TH350 3rd gear is always 1:1.
I just ran a couple calculators. He must have been exaggerating.
Okay then, back to the 200-4r....

Macadoo

I found this on the CK Performance website. It regards modifying your existing Q-jet to accept the tv cable.
I'll probably be lazy and just replace my carb.

http://www.ckperformance.com/Files/1...mTVarticle.pdf

oddball

#2 in that PDF is effectively what Sparky did for me, but they threaded the shaft and used a bolt, so the bracket is removable, instead of welding.

Macadoo

I've thought about doing just that. But I don't think I'd get enough movement out of the arc path.
How important is the billet direct drum for the 200-4r? I'm lucky if I have 300 horses under the hood but I do have a heavy foot at times.

65Delta

For reference the 3.42 gear set spins her at 3100RPM doing 70mph with 26.25" tall tires. The 2.56 rear had her at 2600RPM at 75mph. I think 1:1 is the only choice for 3rd gear on a TH350 but I could be wrong. I didn't investigate it at all.
If you decide to stick with the TH350 or do it in phases the 45T driven gear (17T drive gear I believe...have it written down somewhere) with the 40-45T housing is the right choice for a 3.42 rear.

Macadoo

Thanks Delta. Actually IIRC, my tires are 28" which brings the 70 mph down to 2873 and 75 mph to 3078. I could live with that but the wife really likes getting out on the road. Last summer we drove from home, central Illinois, to Niagara Falls.
If the trans wasn't MIA I'd take it out on the road in 2nd and run it up to 3k for a while. I did that last summer and it felt fairly uncomfortable.

Macadoo

I was chatting with Copper last night on Facebook and he had me talked into replacing with a beefed TH350 but I think today I'm back to the 200-4r. MAry wants to go west this summer, maybe Texas, and I don't want to put that kind of stress on the motor.
Anyway, pics of the new jack stands and exhaust. I think I can slide the crossmember back without hitting the pipes and there will be plenty of room before the H-pipe. Good news there. I think I found a rebuilt carb with the proper linkage and electric choke so that's movement in the right direction. I just have to decide on a builder. PATC, CK Performance come in about the same price. Midwest Converters is hundreds less but without the reputation of the others and they don't upgrade the direct drum. IIRC, they said they have newer 200-4r's that have better drums. Can that be true?
I need to decide soon. I want to start work in a couple of weeks.

Ratdog442

Did you ask the mechanic this question?

coppercutlass

Mac I said th350 with the gear vendors od. Now that's the ticket imo

Ratdog442

that is what I am thinking..http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/041...-transmission/.

I am going to look into this for my car...sounds a whole bunch simpler.

just checked pricing...lol...I guess paying an extra $1500 is worth less headache and time.

Macadoo

That's true Copper, you did. And I'd jump on that if I didn't have a trashed 350.
There's an Art Carr 200-4r, 1000 HP on eBay but it's pickup only and non-lockup.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004R-200-4R...JXBo0u&vxp=mtr

coppercutlass

Thats true too.

Macadoo

I've been looking at "built" 350s. For the price I might as well go with the 200-4r.

65Delta

What kind of prices are you seeing for a built TH350? I had to dig but I found 2 BOP TH350 cores for $50 and $90 respectively. I had $900 or so all in. I'm sure you could find a 200R4 core at Pull-a-Part if you kept an eye out for an 80s Delta88, Cutlass Supreme, etc.

oddball

The drum is normally upgraded for a stronger part on any performance build. A "better" OEM unit isn't saying much.
I know the pumps changed over the years and the valve bodies changed. Some folks try to use the Buick GN units as starting cores as those supposedly have the best stuff to start from.

As for the Gear Vendors, there are a few quirks (which many folks will happily deal with)
*) Engagement is manual via a switch. With enough ingenuity one may be able to make a controller, but I haven't seen one.
*) Driveshaft has to be shortened. Not a huge deal, but notable
*) Floor pan may need to be modified to clear the unit

Macadoo

I think CK wanted $1300, others similar.

I did read up a little on the GV. The floor pan really put me off. Mine is primo and I'm not messing with it.
I like that CK Perf lists everything in their 200-4r build, not that I understand it all but it sounds good and it's a long list.
That's my current problem with Midwest Converters. I'm going to ask them tomorrow if they will send me a list. All I know right now is the hardened stator and that they don't replace the drum.
I just don't know if my car is worth spending 3k on for a tranny swap. The wife is very understanding and wants me to do "the right thing". Just wish I knew what that is. And show season is already starting here!

Ratdog442

put a muncie 4 speed in it

Macadoo

Lol

olds 307 and 403

Here is the carb spacer I personally used with a QJet on the 3711 manifold. It comes with everything and the "open" side goes up.
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-3406#
Talk to Ken at Everyday Performance, his prices are reasonable, he rebuilt my 78 403 carb, with my core $250. He should have a 76-80 Olds Qjet core to build, that is what you want, he may even have the TV/Throttle bracket you need. Go with CK Performance. Dr Dan who builds these trans, some into the 9's, uses Chris at CK nearly exclusively for parts. I have bought parts from PATC, including my current converter, which flashes at 2300 rpm behind my 350 and is tight around town for a cheap $200 lock up converter, supposed to be good for 350 HP. I also contacted CK for their price, waited maybe a week, ordered from PATC, their website is nice. Chris got back to me the next day, his base converter was more but his shipping was much less to Canada, so it was a wash. Dr Dan uses PTC for his converters though, they have a $400 tight for the street 2800 stall, just ask for the Dr Dan special.

Macadoo

Thanks for the link, 307. That's the same one I was looking at. Good to have the confirmation.
And thanks for the vote of confidence with CK. Any idea how long it would take them to ship?

olds 307 and 403

If you mean CK, unless they have one on the shelf, it will vary depending on how busy they are. With your current motor, their mild build should be fine.

Macadoo

Yeah, CK Performance wait time. The website says they have it "in stock", not sure what that means.
Yep, street/strip build would be more than enough for my barely over stock motor.

Macadoo

This is just an FYI post:
I was thinking that since I haven't swapped my rear gears yet and I've pretty much decided to go with the 200-4r, why not sell my 3.42 ring and pinion and go for the 3.73s? But a quick search yielded some important info. TH350 1st gear = 2.52 and the 200-4r 1st gear = 2.74. So a 200-4r with 3.42 gears is very close to a TH350 with 3.72 rear gears. So the best of both worlds (in theory), a grunty launch and low RPMs on the interstate.

http://www.race-track.com/news.asp?TOPIC_ID=532

I've decided to go with Midwest Converters in Rockford. It was a tough decision and yes, it partly came down to money, but not completely.
1. Money - they are offering me a complete package for around $1500. But it may go up because I'm insisting on certain upgrades. Greg says he'll build it any way I want but seems to have my back when it comes to asking for things I don't need.
2. It's a drivable distance - 2 hours one way = peace of mind. If something goes awry, and I'm not assuming it won't, at least I can drive the trans back to them, rather than paying shipping.
3. A one-year warranty - parts and labor if it's obviously their fault, parts if it's questionable, and they will "work with me" if it's my fault (seems reasonable).

So, there it is. Wish me luck! I know I'll have lots of questions once I get underway.

Macadoo

I'm going to start this swap in about a week. Any bolts I should be spraying down with PB Blaster now, so they can soak? U-joint bolts? Linkage?

65Delta

Add exhaust crossover & x-member to your list. If the nuts on the starter are really crusty you might want to disconnect the batt and hit them as well.

Out of curiosity how do the converter bolts on a 200R4 compare to a TH350? The Olds Jetaway/TH350 pads are threaded, my replacement converter wasn't. I also had to space the converter just a hair to clear the weights on the flexplate.

oddball

Exhaust pipes to manifolds (if they haven't been removed recently and you're still running manifolds). Tranny crossmember to frame bolts. Sometimes those are pinch nuts, too. Everything else tends to have a natural coat of oil anyway.

May not need to remove the starter. Converter to flexplate may need new hardware depending on whether the converters match. BOP style used welded nuts on the converter, Chevy used straps with bolts and nuts. Make sure to use grade 8 stuff. If the converter doesn't sit flush with the flexplate (due to Olds counterweight hitting Chevy converter - it's common and it's fine) then use a hardened washer or two on each bolt to space the converter back like Delta said.

olds 307 and 403

Mac, use the Olds Gmail calculator to figure out your cruise rpm. It bang on with my car, seems to have the converter lock up built in to calculator. I get 1651 rpm at 60 mph and 2064 rpm at 75 mph, 28" tall tire and 3.42 gears. As said, cross member, exhaust and bell housing and converter bolts. Remember you need metric torque converter to flex plate bolts. I have had no issues with stock and after market torque converters and the stock Olds flex plate. They are the weld on lug style, nut not needed. I did have to use washers on an aftermarket converter pulled the converter out to far when i tightened the bolts.

Macadoo

Already checked the exhaust, exhaust to headers, crossmember, they're all good. Trans mount is new. Hadn't thought about starter but most of the items you mentioned were refreshed about two years ago.
Okay, so, I think I'm going to cry uncle on this one. I talked to my garage and they quoted me $450 all in for an install (if I prep well).
I think I could do the trans install or the rear gears but I don't think both. My bones just aren't up for it. and I don't want to miss half the summer. The garage will pull the TH350 and put it in my truck, then push the Olds to the side and keep her indoors until I come back with the 200-4r.
The info I have learned here has been invaluable to the prep though.
Now I can concentrate on those rear gears.

Ratdog442

I just had the swap done to my car...350 engine with 3.73 gears. Mine came about because at the start of a 500 mile road trip back to Nashville 2nd and 3rd gear went out on the th350. Had the car towed to a shop I have used and trust on a past ratrod. I just picked up the car today. I will give a full update this weekend after the 500 miles back to Music City. It has to be better then filling up every 4 hours @60 MPH.

Macadoo

Very cool, Ratdog. Yeah man, please let me know what you think. I'm picking mine up Friday. Did you go with the TCI lockup kit? You've probably had your 3.73s for a while but how does it all feel together? I mean, butt-dyno-wise? With that 200-4r lower 1st gear, it's like a th350 with 4-ish rear gears.
I'm also curious where you hooked up to 12v power for the lockup circuit. I'm adding an adjunct fuse box under the hood. My under the dash box is looking a little scary.
Did you go with a stock pan or deep with a 700r4 filter?

Ratdog442

Didn't go with a lockup kit as the trans guy said it really wouldn't do much based on my 1800 stall speed. I am running around 2300 rpms at 65. Went with stock pan but an external trans cooler. Finally got everything dialed in and it is wicked....totally different car...worth every penny.

olds 307 and 403

The lock up is nice on the highway, would drop you to 2000 at 65 mph.

Macadoo

Yeah, I read that lockup is a must for highway cruising or the trans can overheat. Tooling around town wouldn't make a difference though.
I picked up the transmission on Friday then spent the weekend in Chicago. Taking it to the garage on Monday where the head mechanic and I will get it installed. Then it's time to pull the rear and get that 3.73 posi in. Can't wait for mine to be "wicked"!

dalilama

Rootin' for ya Mac - keep us posted!

Ratdog442

He said it is ready for the lock up switch. If it will drop 300 rpm's I will do the switch..How difficult is it to connect the switch?

BlackGold

For what it's worth, on a completely stock mid-80s 442, the lock-up converter only drops engine RPM 150 under light throttle.

Ratdog442

I did a little research and found a Buick site that talked about lockup converters. They said the same thing. For a 150 rpm's it is a mind thing as far as doing what is best for the trans.

Macadoo

If I understand correctly, you must not have a lockup converter. The switch isn't hard to install. TCI has a [very short] video on their website. Drop the pan, replace the harness, pop in the switch (and a bit more) but you'd need the lockup converter.

My install has been delayed. The head mechanic dropped hot slag down his boot and is out for a week. Then I realized I didn't come home from Rockford with the TH350 shift bracket from the side of the trans. I told them I needed it and then we got sidetracked. They're owning it and shipping the bracket down here for free. I couldn't find one in town here to save my life.
Hoping for a Friday install. It's all good though. I haven't had a day to chill since school got out.