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Hey fellas,
It's been a long school year but it's time for me to start thinking Olds.
My TH350 finally went belly up and since I have the 3.42 rear gears still sitting on my bench.....here it comes......ready?........M...A...W!
I'm talking with Midwest Converters in Rockford, Il about a BOP 2004r (he said it was a grand national). Looks like it'll be $1500 all in. This includes the trans with hardened stator, 2200 TC, shift kit, TCI lock-up kit. Since I'm swapping my TH350 I won't get the full core refund.
Anyway, I ordered a trans jack from HF and four 6 ton jack stands with 24" max lift. Hoping that will be enough. Can I use plywood or 2x pine between the stands and the frame or is that a bad idea? Safety first, right? I get a little claustrophobic lying under the Olds.
Also I found this TV cable kit. http://www.tvmadeez.com/identify.php#
It looks pretty good but I don't see my Q-jet. I don't have the numbers on the top but my linkage doesn't look like what's listed on their sight (including a pick of my linkage).
Thoughts?
More questions:
1. Will I need to modify the dual exhaust to get the 2004r to fit? It kind of looks like it will be necessary since I have an H-pipe.
2. Can two guys lift a TH350 into the back of a pickup or will I need a hoist?
3. Any reason I shouldn't pull the rear end out and the trans at the same time? I don't mean together, just having them both out at the some time.
4. Should I plan on replacing the U-joints while I have it all apart? Right now they seems nice and tight and solid.
Ahh, it's good to be back!
Last edited by Macadoo; April 16th, 2016 at 09:43 PM.
Do not buy anything from Midwest. I know too many guys that have ran their junk and it's junk. Th350 can be lifted by one guy without converter. Relatively light. 2 guys for ease though.
Depending on your strength a Turbo 350 should be no problem to put in a pickup. Funny thing I ran into this weekend. I am 53 and so are my friends. I lift weights 5 times a week and practice Martial Arts as well. My buddy put a battery in for me but put it in backwards. I went to pull it out and he said, "Hey, that thing is REALLY heavy, so watch it." I basically pulled it out and had it in one hand while I flipped it around. It made me think that we are all getting older and what at one time seemed easy is now hard for him. I was surprised because this guy is no slouch. I just realized he isn't and I'm not what we once were. If you don't use it, you lose it. Stay healthy, Zerocare ain't gonna help you down the road. As I suck down another Bourbon. LOL Love your car BTW. That thing is CLEAN!
Last edited by z11375ss; April 16th, 2016 at 11:14 PM.
Mac I find w jack stands there in my way all the time. If I can I leave the tires on and use 4x4 wood peices stacked crisscross under the tires or or use patio blocks. The car is super stable because it's still sitting on its tires and the JS doesn't get in my way
If you google image search car on cribbing blocks you'll see what I mean
Last edited by RetroRanger; April 17th, 2016 at 07:06 AM.
As long as you you have the right linkage, same as the late 70's and 80's CCC carb, you can just use the stock Qjet bracket. I just used the universal adjustable cable. Pretty much completely stock under light throttle and firm under hard throttle. There is a guy on the GBody site doing the same from Midwest Converters behind a 300 HP Olds 350, hopefully he has better luck. Honestly a near stock rebuild with a hardened stator, hardened pumps rings, stiffer slide spring and a shift kit like the big Transgo shift kit with the servo and the pan over filled a quart will hold up fine.
Do not buy anything from Midwest. I know too many guys that have ran their junk and it's junk. Th350 can be lifted by one guy without converter. Relatively light. 2 guys for ease though.
Seriously? Wow, that sucks. I'll keep looking. I was going to check for local first anyway. It would make it easier if I have trouble. Always best to make a complaint face-to-face.
Originally Posted by z11375ss
Depending on your strength a Turbo 350 should be no problem to put in a pickup. Funny thing I ran into this weekend. I am 53 and so are my friends. I lift weights 5 times a week and practice Martial Arts as well. My buddy put a battery in for me but put it in backwards. I went to pull it out and he said, "Hey, that thing is REALLY heavy, so watch it." I basically pulled it out and had it in one hand while I flipped it around. It made me think that we are all getting older and what at one time seemed easy is now hard for him. I was surprised because this guy is no slouch. I just realized he isn't and I'm not what we once were. If you don't use it, you lose it. Stay healthy, Zerocare ain't gonna help you down the road. As I suck down another Bourbon. LOL Love your car BTW. That thing is CLEAN!
Hey Z, I'm just a year older than you but have had some back luck, health-wise. Car accident, bounced my head off a tile floor restraining a student when teaching special ed, a couple....uh...bar fights, and a broken neck. I used to lift every other day until my elbows went south. ANd I was running 3 miles on the off days until my neck put a stop to that. It's not always lack of muscle that causes the downward slide, but bad joints will halt everything. I've burned my stomach up overusing NSAIDS so I'm experimenting with some topical remedies. I'm having pretty good luck with DMSO (Di-methyl Sulfide). It's a little known "natural" byproduct of the paper industry sold as, of all things, a solvent. Youtube DMSO 60 minutes episode from the 70s. Since it can't be patented, big pharma crushed it.
"Love your car BTW. That thing is CLEAN!" Says the man that can screech the tires in ALL gears
Originally Posted by RetroRanger
Mac I find w jack stands there in my way all the time. If I can I leave the tires on and use 4x4 wood peices stacked crisscross under the tires or or use patio blocks. The car is super stable because it's still sitting on its tires and the JS doesn't get in my way
If you google image search car on cribbing blocks you'll see what I mean
Hey Ranger, I looked into cribbing. It looks legit. But since I'm pulling the whole rear end, I'll need the stands.
As long as you you have the right linkage, same as the late 70's and 80's CCC carb, you can just use the stock Qjet bracket. I just used the universal adjustable cable. Pretty much completely stock under light throttle and firm under hard throttle. There is a guy on the GBody site doing the same from Midwest Converters behind a 300 HP Olds 350, hopefully he has better luck. Honestly a near stock rebuild with a hardened stator, hardened pumps rings, stiffer slide spring and a shift kit like the big Transgo shift kit with the servo and the pan over filled a quart will hold up fine.
No can do, brother. It's a '71 carb. I'll look for an Olds 307 bracket at the salvage yards but I do want the fine adjustment option.
If you are doing the TH350 to TH2004R swap, get your tape measure out. I think you'll find that the 2004r is longer, and a driveshaft and transmission mounting will be different.
If you are doing the TH350 to TH2004R swap, get your tape measure out. I think you'll find that the 2004r is longer, and a driveshaft and transmission mounting will be different.
Actually transman, the 2004r is a straight swap, pretty much. The same size as the TH400. Cross member will need to slide back a bit but the bolt holes are already there. I'll need to play with the e-brake cables and convert the TV cable, but I think that's the only mods needed.
Thanks for the input though
A set of 4 HF 6 ton jack stands will work just fine. You'll have enough room to get the TH350 out. I used these with the HF trans jack and had no issues except trying to get the bell housing past the headers.
I just finished putting a 10 bolt in my '69 that I converted from a 2.56 peg leg to a 3.42 posi. The HF trans jack worked well for that as well. I'd put the rear jack stands under the axle to pull the trans and then relocate them to the frame rails to pull the rear. The car is supported further out from the center and seems a bit more stable. That's the way I did it and it worked out fine. I'll see if I dig up a few pics.
I'd also HIGHLY recommend a floor jack saddle spacer. Auto Body Toolmart carries the only one I've seen and it's USA made. I got the 3" spacer and it worked well.
While at the yard, steal a set of 2004R trans cooler lines. The angle they attach is very different. Either bending new lines or braided lines are also options. I am stealing the modified lines of my G body when I do my swap.
BTW Mac i have a legit trans jack you can borrow. if and when you are ready and you need a hand. I might be able to help you and save you the money of buying the jack. Its actually an atv jack with a trans jack base. pretty stable used it aswell to install my rear end. zjust throwing that out there.
A set of 4 HF 6 ton jack stands will work just fine. You'll have enough room to get the TH350 out. I used these with the HF trans jack and had no issues except trying to get the bell housing past the headers.
I just finished putting a 10 bolt in my '69 that I converted from a 2.56 peg leg to a 3.42 posi. The HF trans jack worked well for that as well. I'd put the rear jack stands under the axle to pull the trans and then relocate them to the frame rails to pull the rear. The car is supported further out from the center and seems a bit more stable. That's the way I did it and it worked out fine. I'll see if I dig up a few pics.
I'd also HIGHLY recommend a floor jack saddle spacer. Auto Body Toolmart carries the only one I've seen and it's USA made. I got the 3" spacer and it worked well.
Good tips, Delta. And good call on pulling the trans first. I might not have thought of that. Sounds like I'm doing exactly what you already did and bought the same tools so that gives me a little confidence. The saddle spacer was for lowering the axle?
Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403
While at the yard, steal a set of 2004R trans cooler lines. The angle they attach is very different. Either bending new lines or braided lines are also options. I am stealing the modified lines of my G body when I do my swap.
Another good call. I was thinking braided so that line-up wouldn't be an issue. A little pricey though. I'll see what the yard has.
Originally Posted by 65Delta
I have a lot more pics but you can get the general idea from a few:
Great pics, Delta, thanks. I'd better have another look at my headers. I'm running shorties so I don't think they'll be an issue. My main concern is the routing of the exhaust pipes. I'll see if I can get a pic.
Originally Posted by coppercutlass
BTW Mac i have a legit trans jack you can borrow. if and when you are ready and you need a hand. I might be able to help you and save you the money of buying the jack. Its actually an atv jack with a trans jack base. pretty stable used it aswell to install my rear end. zjust throwing that out there.
Copper, always to my rescue. I already bought the HF jack, I'll need it to get the 350 out before I head up to Midwest, if that's what I end up doing. Reviews are mixed.
And dude, you gotta' stop doing stuff for free! Oh, except I'll be needing to borrow your dummy pinion bearing soon, if you're still offering
I gotta find it. If you go to Rockford let me know. We can get together and grab a bite. Rockford brewing is awesome. I don't mind helping people. My long long list of car projects is coming to an end. Day projects don't bother me. It's the long ones that do.
If you watch a floor jack in action the geometry changes radically as you get near max lift. After you get the car, say, 3/4 of the way up, you put in the jack extender and take it the rest of the way up. I lost the front end of a Jeep due to this once. The jack slid off the front axle tube and punched a hole in the oil pan. I found/bought this the next day. IMO it was $20 well spent.
Are you regearing the 10 bolt on your own? I learned 2 things the hard way (not mentioned in the book). A diff case spreader is a must as is the SS10 super shim kit. I paid $20 for "How to Rebuild your 10 & 12 bolt" but would have paid $25 had they mentioned these 2 things.
Diff case spreader ??? i have done 3 rear ends 2 in the car and one out and never needed that tool. The shim kit is a no brainer . I like the raytech install kit.
If you watch a floor jack in action the geometry changes radically as you get near max lift. After you get the car, say, 3/4 of the way up, you put in the jack extender and take it the rest of the way up. I lost the front end of a Jeep due to this once. The jack slid off the front axle tube and punched a hole in the oil pan. I found/bought this the next day. IMO it was $20 well spent.
Are you regearing the 10 bolt on your own? I learned 2 things the hard way (not mentioned in the book). A diff case spreader is a must as is the SS10 super shim kit. I paid $20 for "How to Rebuild your 10 & 12 bolt" but would have paid $25 had they mentioned these 2 things.
I was planning on using 2x8s under the jack when it gets that high but an extender would be safer and easier. Which height did you use?
Originally Posted by coppercutlass
Diff case spreader ??? i have done 3 rear ends 2 in the car and one out and never needed that tool. The shim kit is a no brainer . I like the raytech install kit.
I've got the shim kit and when the wife put me on the spot for a Christmas present I had to think fast. I ended up with this:
I got the 3" extender. It doesn't seem like much but, when installed on the jack it makes a big difference. Glad I talked you out of a 2" x 8". Best case from the jack slipping is component damage, like the oil pan on that Jeep. I did, however, gladly pay the $100 for a new oil pan as that was the worst thing that happened. Could have been much, much worse.
I tried setting it up without a case spreader and was able to wrestle the open carrier out. I got the posi out 1X without a spreader as well but the backlash kept jumping when I put shims in (why I had to pull it). I also wasn't sure of the best way to set preload on the carrier bearings. The spreader made it easy. A guy on ebay sells them for $150 or so. I set it up, spread the case 0.006", set backlash, and spread it just a hair more to get the shims in. B/l didn't move and I was right on with carrier bearing preload of 0.003"-0.005".
I got the Richmond kit as it had USA made Timken bearings. The smallest shim in that kit was 0.010". The second shim kit I bought also had 0.005" and 0.0075" shims.
Last edited by 65Delta; April 17th, 2016 at 05:59 PM.
I have a stash of factory shims and try to use one big solid one on one side and the thin and thick mix on one side so that way when the carrier goes on you install the multiple shims on on side and tap the big solid shim on one side and its nice and tight as it should be. its hard to get it right with flimsy shims.
I can see where that would have done the trick. The cast iron shims that came out of my housing (with the original 2.56 open carrier) were way off. One of them was also cracked. I had to use aftermarket shims on both sides
I pulled the trans out from under my '85 Parisienne with the front up on ramps, the rear still on the ground. The single best tool for this job is a friend who doesn't mind getting dirty. As for the U-joints ... unless you know when they were last changed, why would you leave the old ones?
Macadoo,
The most commonly referred TH2004R builders are Art Carr (California Performance - NOT the "art carr transmissions" company - messy situation much like Mondello), CK Performance, and Jake's Performance. Extreme Automatics and PATC also have decent reputations.
As you've probably realized, the original Olds qjet linkage does NOT have a TV provision, and there are no adapter brackets for this style. One approach is to use a later year Qjet bracket on your old carb. This is involved(*).
Or you can switch to a late carb with the linkage, or pick-your-poison of aftermarket carbs.
TCI makes a universal throttle bracket that includes a mounting hole for a TV cable. Stock Olds throttle cables snap right in.
For cooler lines, just note that the input/output is swapped from other TH trannies. I can't recommend going flex line strongly enough. I got really tired of rounding off hard line nuts and spending god-awful amounts of time trying to get the lines to line up properly. Just secure flex lines so they don't lay on the exhaust. Also take care when installing the pipe to AN adapters - they seal using flat copper washers. Installing too tight WILL break the case, and that's typically not salvageable. Flex lines usually don't require any special tools or anything, just some patience and practice, although they are more pricey.
I just finished this swap on a '70 Chevelle. We even used the stock parking brake lines by just hanging the hooks in different locations, but that may not work as easily for Olds, since the Olds cable routing is a little different. His is an Art Carr (CPT) unit. Leaked from the TV hole right off the bat, but the larger rebuild gasket sealed just fine. Art also convinced my buddy to get the fancy controller (I can't find the info on it at the moment) that uses a line pressure sensor as a poor-man's throttle position sensor, plus speedo input, and has various lock/unlock algorithms. Really neat unit, except the he's blown the guts out of four pressure sensors so far. CPT and the controller manufacturer have been sending him replacements, but it's a little frustrating.
The other fun tidbit is the lockup control. There's a ton of different ways to do this. Research to your heart's content.
No need to remove the transmission or fuss with jack stand placement. Tranny slides right out the side. 24" is more than enough height.
There's no need to replace the ujoints if they're in good shape.
The TH2004R pan is longer and deeper than the TH350, so your H-pipe may be in the way. I'd drop the exhaust from the car, do the swap, then try to get the exhaust back in place. Might get to cruise around with open manifolds/headers for a while!
Note that replacing the TH2004R speedo drive/driven gears in a PITA - requires dropping the pan. So make sure they are the units you want/need before installing. We trusted CPT to get it right (gave them all the pertinent info beforehand), so we didn't check. They were off by 45%!! At least CPT gave him a free adapter unit.
(*) The '77 and up (maybe? YMMV) Olds Qjets have TV linkage. But the primary blade shaft is different, so you can't just swap the primary shaft. I sent my original and a late year primary shaft to Sparky (sparkyscarbs.com). He has a friend lop off both brackets, thread the old shaft, then attach the late year bracket to the early shaft. Note that the upper part of the bracket is different, so your idle compensator dashpot or idle kick-up solenoid need to be modified to align correctly.
Oh, from what I can tell, every rebuilder ships out a lemon from time to time. No one has a perfect reputation. Some are just better at lemons than others.
A lot of information to absorb, thanks everyone. Copper, good call on the shim procedure.
oddball, um, wow. Thanks. And nice meeting you.
Not sure this is the exact right bracket so I'll keep looking. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tc...eviews/?page=2
I have A LOT more research to do. I'll keep this thread updated as I make progress.
The four 2004R's, all different years I have owned had the black driven gear. The green, 10 tooth that attaches to the governor was perfect for my 3.42 gears, bang on with the GPS. A 77 and up 403 QJet carb would probably about the perfect calibration for your mild 350.
I've been reading and am understanding more about the linkage issue. Is there a "best" BOP quadrajet year I should be looking at? Here are a few examples of throttle linkages:
The pic labeled "MINE" is what I'm running now.
The pic labeled "TV_EZ" is the most common linkage I see running a 200-4r tv cable.
The pic labeled "eBay" is just a rebuild I found on eBay for an 81-86 Olds/Buick. (not sure what the electrical connectors are for).
The TV_EZ and the Olds/Buick linkages look very different but obviously have an extra pin connector compared to what I'm running now.
I'm also thinking I'm going to need a carb spacer to raise whatever linkage I end up with. That shouldn't be a big deal, I have the clearance. I'm running an Edelbrock Performer intake, 3711.
The Spectre bracket is good for custom jobs where there's no reuse from existing stuff and all the adjustability is required. And, yes, once the right setup is determined, that whole thing should be dunked in epoxy or it'll just come right apart. I'm not a fan.
The critical thing is how far the TV cable is pulled. All QJets, and nearly all carbs, have the same configuration - from closed to wide open is a bit less than 90deg. So there's a critical distance from the pivot point (primary shaft) to the TV pin, which then determines the pull distance resulting from that arc.
In the end, the most important thing is that at WOT the cable is pulled all the way out. Any adjustable cable will assure that. If the pin doesn't move far enough, then the line pressure at low/part throttle will be higher than normal, which just means harsher shifts. If the pin moves too far, then pressure at low/part throttle will be too low, which can destroy parts.
Lots of QJets had various things hanging off the bottom of the throttle bracket. The TVEZ guys make adapters to place a TV provision at the right location. Sadly, they just don't make one for the Olds bracket.
The QJets with electrical plugs have solenoids in them that can tune part throttle and (IIRC) idle fuel mixtures. You must have a matching computer to run one of those. Avoid.
It's been too long since I did the research on all the application cross-overs. If you want a carb to swap on that is stock-ish, I would aim for a late 70's Olds carb. Should be a good starting point with the right pin (but verify!). If you really like how your current carb runs, then you can do the bracket swap like I did. Or just go aftermarket.
The 80's Buick has the TV pin - it's the semi rounded, semi square pin at the bottom of the throttle bracket pointing away from the carb.
I'm not particularly attached to my current carb. It runs great but isn't the original, that's in a box on my shelf. I'll just put it up for sale. It only has about 5k miles on it.
The dashpot bracket will need modifying or I can fab a new one, not too worried about that.
I was just getting ready to post this from the Bowtie site, as much for my own memory as for others:
"A TV spring with a specific length will be installed when the transmission is remanufactured. The distance the TV cable is allowed to travel while going back to idle is determined by the "carburetor linkage" in the specific vehicle the transmission gets installed into. For any TV system to be "correct" there must be a very specific relationship created between these to elements."
I talked to a mechanic today that says he has a "built" B&M TH350 in a late 50's Pontiac with 3.73 gears and that it runs about 2400 rpm at 70 mph. He said it was internal gearing, not an OD tailshaft. I didn't know that was possible. Wouldn't the shift points be really......weird?
Last edited by Macadoo; April 20th, 2016 at 04:48 PM.
Good to see you have another thread kicked off. I hope things go well with your new trans-plant along with your rear gears.
Your pics are always great and very informative, I will be taking notes on the 200r4 and how well it runs in the car afterwards.
I don't have any plans for my car this year, but I will certainly enjoy this thread.
All the best with the job ahead
Cheers
Eric
Mac im actually pulling my trans in a week or so lol . The other night after some spirited driving i think i broke the sprag in my th350. havent lost 2nd gear completely yet but it went from working to not lol so time to fix and upgrade the trusty th350 lol. I was on borrowed time not upgrading the sprag and race on the direct drum.
[QUOTE=Macadoo;913879]Lol, thanks Eric. Good to hear from you! And the other CO Erics, are they doing okay?
I'm sure all the Eric's and other Eric are fine, Still providing lots of mechanical help to us all.
I'm surprised they haven't popped up in your new thread yet. I'm sure once you get to wrenchin' they will be here to lend a hand if need be.
I hope you can get a few shows in as well, makes all your efforts well worth it, although your car already turns heads just as it is.
Its coming along nicely I must say.
Mac im actually pulling my trans in a week or so lol . The other night after some spirited driving i think i broke the sprag in my th350. havent lost 2nd gear completely yet but it went from working to not lol so time to fix and upgrade the trusty th350 lol. I was on borrowed time not upgrading the sprag and race on the direct drum.
Depending on how things work out, I may have a core for you if you want it. Not sure yet. Can a TH350 really be geared to run low RPMs at 70 mph?
Sorry about your trans! Lol, I'd been putting mine off too and now it just sits like a lump on a log. Sucks man.
[QUOTE=76olds;913927]
Originally Posted by Macadoo
Lol, thanks Eric. Good to hear from you! And the other CO Erics, are they doing okay?
I'm sure all the Eric's and other Eric are fine, Still providing lots of mechanical help to us all.
I'm surprised they haven't popped up in your new thread yet. I'm sure once you get to wrenchin' they will be here to lend a hand if need be.
I hope you can get a few shows in as well, makes all your efforts well worth it, although your car already turns heads just as it is.
Its coming along nicely I must say.
Oh I'll be getting in shows, come h&ll or high water. Wouldn't be summer without hanging out with car guys!
April 16th, 2016, 09:39 PM
