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I have a 1960 super 88 4 door sedan that was my grandpa’s one owner 87,000 miles and it is in perfect condition inside and out. It has not been started since 1976 but was running good when it was last driven. It was stored inside in a dry environment, but the engine is stuck and I have tried several methods to get it loose. I would like to remove the engine without the transmission but I am not sure if I can get the engine and transmission separated without taking all the bolts out that are around the flex plate/flywheel. With the engine stuck I cannot excess all the bolts. My question is if I do not remove the bolts from around the flywheel can the torque converter remain with the engine and will it pull out of the transmission, leaving the transmission in the car?
394 cu in, Jetaway Hydra Matic, model OA-60-72519
I have a service manual (paper one) it even has some slip sheets/updates from Oldsmobile and some notes written in the margins from the mechanic that used this book. But I cannot tell how they may separate. I have taken engines out of pickups with manual transmission but never an automatic. I have overhauled diesel ag tractors, so I have some abilities. I am ok with getting the bell housing bolts outs (may need to lower the engine), build a support for the transmission etc. Thanks in advance for any comments. Ray
I built a bracket to fit on the front pulley so I could put a nice 5 ft cheater bar on to get some torque on turning the engine. Over a 6 week period I have use marvel mystery oil then different brands or penetrating oil through the spark plug opening and then every time I walk by I give it a good jerk back and forth on the cheater bar. I tried to make sure I sprayed up as far as I could to get the oil to the high edge of the piston. Any additional ideas would be appreciated. Ray
You have at least two major issues maybe more. As Coldwar has asked what have you done to get it unstuck. The problem is you need to rotate the engine to excess the flex plate bolts as it seems you have found out. The fix is to loosen the rod and mains and and rotate the crank but the engine needs to be out side the car to do this. Only problem there is you cant get to all the rods and main bolts because they are rotated to the point a wrench can't excess the nuts and you can't rotate the crank because it's stuck.. Kinda a catch 22 thing going on here.
How long have you been trying to un stick the beast? These things sometimes take awhile to work. I use a mixture of 50/50 atf and acetone down each cylinder hole (leave the plugs out) and a monster brake bar with a extension on the crank bolt. Play with it everyday back and forth for a month if needed, add solution from time to time.
Something to ponder is if it is really stuck hard why and what damage happened to it while it was stuck. Rusted rings to cylinder comes to mind or did Grandpa do something to it to cause it to be parked in the first place.... Tedd
To answer the question, yes, a torque converter will be pulled off its input shaft by taking a bolted on engine away. You may have better success removing the transmission off the engine if there's room. You may also wish to pull the hood and the front clip and remove the whole thing from the car, then work on it in peace and pull the trans off once out.
Taking the timing chain off would remove the valvetrain from the issue, but it sounds like stuck rings to me. I think you need to POUR, not spray, your penetrant of choice in those cylinders.
Koda and Tedd are pretty much on target. POUR 50/50 ATF and Acetone in to FILL the cylinders is the keyword. Rig up a funnel and hose to fill the cylinders and add more later.
Sounds like the cast iron rings are rusted to the cylinder walls. Patience is also a good idea. Good luck and when it breaks loose you'll make life easier.
My question is if I do not remove the bolts from around the flywheel can the torque converter remain with the engine and will it pull out of the transmission, leaving the transmission in the car?
Originally Posted by Koda
To answer the question, yes, a torque converter will be pulled off its input shaft by taking a bolted on engine away.
This is a dual coupling Hydra-Matic . So this is not true .
The fluid coupling ( "torque converter " ) must be disassembled to remove it from the transmission . It is not like a TH 400 or TH350 .
Thanks for all the great advice especially CW with the words of encouragement. I will try again to get it loose as that is my first choice and I will giving it some more time. (Restoring cars is a marathon and not a sprint.) Second choice is to take the heads off and hit each on with a piece of wood and hammer and third choice to remove the engine.
I will try again to get it loose as that is my first choice and I will giving it some more time. (Restoring cars is a marathon and not a sprint.) Second choice is to take the heads off and hit each on with a piece of wood and hammer and third choice to remove the engine.
Thanks again and I will provide an update.
Second choice would maybe not work as well as you think. Unless the big end of the rods is disconnected, you are trying to break all EIGHT pistons loose at the same time. You are also trying to break the bond between the 3 rings (top ring,2ndand oil scraper set) on each piston loose. The rings aren't just rusted, they are kinda (fused, glued, welded, etc.) to the cylinder walls. You are also trying to work the penetrant to all THREE rings in each cylinder. Perhaps....if you pull the heads after not getting the engine free to rotate..... try an acid brush and spray can of Hoppe's #9 Gun Solvent. Squirt and brush the Hoppe's around the gap between the piston.
I agree with the fellow back a few ago . You have a serious problem & you look to be dancing to a beat that not great . Yes its alot to do but save yourself time & remove as much as needed to get it the engine out of the car hood,radiator,& support. Get the car up on blocks so you can get under it to unhook things at a good height . Pull the trans, engine as a pair to play all these games like removing the heads, valve train is not going to solve your problem . I would bet 10 /1 the rings are stuck to the bore i,ve seen alot of that in my 28 Plus yrs in my own machine shop business the engine will still have to be taken to the bottom to fix the issue & be able to clean & check things out proporly. Hope this didnt sound to drum dom but in the end you will be doing your self a big favor & the engine a greater deed . Best of Luck
This is a dual coupling Hydra-Matic . So this is not true .
The fluid coupling ( "torque converter " ) must be disassembled to remove it from the transmission . It is not like a TH 400 or TH350 .
Like Charlie said you have to remove the fluid coupling from the flex plate, all 28 or so bolts. I haven't counted them but it amounts to 1/2 of a coffee can full. It takes a lot of time if you are laying on your back on a cement floor looking up at a dirty transmission a lot easier on a table standing up looking down. You really need to check out the cylinder walls after it gets un stuck if for nothing else but piece of mind.
I'm not sure on a 60 Old's (do they still have a X frame) but the earlier first generation Old's it's almost impossible to remove the oil pan in the car without pulling the distributor and jacking the engine up as high as it will go so engine transmission all in one removal is usually easier anyway.... Just my thoughts.... Keep us informed on the way that works for you. Best of luck.. Tedd
My recollection from many years ago when I was privileged to own a 60 Super 88 is that, yes indeed, one must loosen the motor mount bolts and jack up the engine to remove the oil pan. May also have to undo some steering linkage?
I decided it did not look good for getting the engine free so I took the heads off and found that 5 of the cylinders are in very good shape and free. No 5 is looks good enough but is stuck and a hammer and piece of oak will not free it, No 6 has some rust on the cylinder walls with the top of the piston pitted and stuck, No 8 is at the top of the stroke and the top of the piston is really pitted. I am thinking some coolant may have leaked into the cylinder. So I am preparing to remove the engine and transmission as one unit. This engine has come apart so easy, even the exhaust manifold bolts came out easy including the bolts that connect the exhaust manifold to the exhaust pipes. A dry climate and no salt will do that. It is a shame that the three cylinders are bad because the rest of the engine is clean along with the rest of the car.
What do you think the engine without heads and the transmission together will weigh? I have removed everything in front up to the welded frame but I am afraid that I will still need to have the engine hoist extended out to the full length (which is rated at .5 ton). I need it out that far to get to the center of gravity because of the transmission. It is possible I could make it work one hole in which is rated 1.0 ton, it will be close, may need a friend to help. Ray
I think Tedd's numbers are pretty accurate. Load the picker and lift it a little bit and let it sit for a little bit to make sure nothing is going to fail, and, if it does, it doesn't have far to go. Move the car, not the picker, once you get it airborne, then move the stand or whatever to it.
Finally getting back to working on the 60 Olds, too many irons in the fire.
I did not get the engine freed, there is no way to separate the transmission from engine with the engine stuck. I got the engine and transmission out together and was lucky enough to get all the rod caps off. So I drove the centering pins (center the transmission to the engine) into the engine, supported the transmission and crank from below and lifted the engine block off on the crank. Then I could remove the crank from the transmission. I had to weld up a tool to reach along each side the rod so I could hit the piston from the bottom side with a good amount of force (equal force side to side) to get the last three pistons out. The engine has been bored to .030 over and I have all the parts ordered except the hydraulic valve filters. I ordered parts from Rockauto, Fusick, Egge and Packard/Kanter. Kanter claims they will have the value lifers in mid Nov for $10.50 x 16. I have the old lifters organized in a tray so I can put them back in their original position, I do not want to clean them and I would like new ones now that I am spending this amount on the rest of the engine. Thanks for all the help that has been provide on this site.
I do have some questions about assembly ( I have a service manual)
Is there some information on the forum about installing the rear main seal? The service manual says to use graphite grease on the seal and dupont cement No 5402 on the cork seals. I am thinking the gasket kit will include rubber seals so I am thinking install rubber seals put some assembly lube on it after installation and some black RTV on the small two rectangle seals??
The manual says to coat both sides of the head gasket with POB No 3, what would be a similar product that could be used?
The manuals says to use C.P. No 9 on the head bolts what would be a similar product that could be used?
The manual says to use POB No 3 on the gaskets for the oil pan, what would be a similar product?
Is there a special way to lube and install the hydraulic valve lifters?
With new hydraulic valve lifters is it ok to use the old push rods? Have to be in the same position?
Ray,
Glad you found a way to resurrect that "stuck" 394 .
Most gasket sets still have the rope seal . A rubber seal is available from Best Gaskets .
Ross Racing Engines has lifters in stock. http://rossracingengines.com/
The engine went together well, after oil priming the engine, it started right up and things seem to be going well. After the engine warmed up I started to get a squeak which I tracked down to the rockers not getting adequate oil. I have loosened the rocker shaft posts and remove the spark plugs and spun the engine with the starter, I get oil coming out of the head from under the rocker shaft post on each side. After I tighten things down again I still do not get any oil out of the rockers. I started the engine after oiling the valve train with oil from an oil can, and I cannot see any oil coming out from the rocker arms. After a while it starts to squeak again. I get 40 lb of oil pressure at a fast ideal and 20+ lb at slow idea. I have checked for the plug at the end of the oil galley under the distributor and it is in place.
I have considered getting 4 hollow push rods and place one on each corner of the engine to increase oil flow.
I am wondering if the head gasket is a problem as the head gasket I used may only have had a hole for the oil to pass though rather than a elongated opening in the gasket. Please refer to the pictures. I used a Best Gasket, overhaul set, from Fusick and unfortunately cannot remember how the head gasket was. The pictures I have included are a picture of the block before it went to the shop and you can see the original gasket had an elongated hole. I have a picture of the gasket that I just received from Fusick (I order one because I thought I needed to take the heads off to resolve this problem which I am trying to avoid.) The gasket from Fusick only has a small hole for the oil to pass. If the gasket that I did installed have just a small hole, my question is will this restrict the oil flow, I am thinking as you tighten down the head, the gasket material will pucker up some and make the problem worse. I also looked on line at an overhaul gasket set from Best gasket but a different suppler and the pictures on line show the elongated holes. So I am not sure what the head gaskets were like that I installed. Has anyone used a Best Gasket overhaul set and did it have elongated holes? Has anyone knowingly installed a gasket with just a small hole and not an elongated hole, if so did it restrict oil flow?
I did my best to explain myself, hopefully it was good enough.
What else could I do to resolve this problem, maybe I am looking in the wrong places to resolve this?
Thanks
Ray
Bottom of the head to show oil channel The block before it went to the shop and it shows that the original gasket had an elongated hole. The gasket I just ordered showing only a small hole for the oil to pass
Ray ,
What you're showing in the pics is all normal stuff for this engine .
A lot of guys expect there to be a torrent of oil to the rockers ,like in a Chevy . There's not .
If all the passages are clean , however , there will be a small but adequate flow of oil .
Now I have a question . Were the rockers and rocker shafts replaced with new ?
I think that's where the problem may be . The rocker shafts are hollow and capped at each end with a cup type plug . They get oil from one of the rocker stands . There are eight holes in the bottom of the shafts that oil each rocker . The shafts will accumulate and trap sludge . And the shafts and rockers will wear and score .
If the shafts are worn more than .001 , or badly scored , then both the rockers and shafts should be replaced . Fusick , Kanter , and others have them .
Do not replace any of the pushrods with hollow ones . It serves no purpose , and the wrong length pushrod may cause damage .
Your Chassis Shop Manual has a full explanation of a 394 oiling system .
Charlie
Last edited by Charlie Jones; December 26th, 2018 at 05:49 PM.
Thanks for the reply. I have reused the old rocker arm assembly. I did not remove the end plugs when I cleaned them which I will be doing and checking the clearance.
How much oil would your expect to see coming off the rocker arm assembly if everything is working well with the engine running?
Have you installed gaskets without the elongated holes? If so do you think it had any impact on oil flow?
I did install the heads on the wrong sides even though I had them clearly marked, Bone head move. They look identical and have the same casting number. Could this have any impact?
Ray ,
I would recommend removing the rocker assemblies . Pull a couple of arms off and mic the worn section where the rockers ride .
Then mic the shafts where the rockers don't ride . If the difference is more than .001 , then toss those rockers and shafts in the junk barrel and buy new ones .
Make sure to save the rocker stands for re-use .
You can pull a rocker cover on an engine that is running and warmed up and only see a trickle of oil from the valve train .
The gaskets are fine . You only get a "metered" amount of oil to the valve train . Not a full flow .
The heads are identical and can be installed on either side .
You mention cleaning the rocker assemblies . Did you put the rockers back on the same place on the shaft as they were before ?
If not , that could be the cause of your squeak . In that case throw them away and buy new ones .
I don't think you can successfully clean rocker shafts out . The plugs will be destroyed when removing them . And I don't think they are available anymore .
Oldsmobile discontinued them 40 years ago .
You mention cleaning the rocker assemblies . Did you put the rockers back on the same place on the shaft as they were before ?
If not , that could be the cause of your squeak . In that case throw them away and buy new ones .
I don't think you can successfully clean rocker shafts out . The plugs will be destroyed when removing them . And I don't think they are available anymore .
Oldsmobile discontinued them 40 years ago .
Charlie, I thought I read on a thread that someone found some Dorman parts (freeze plugs) that worked in the rocker arm shafts. Tony @rossracingengines would certainly know.
I did make sure I put the rockers arms back in there original positions but I did not clean them as well as i should have. I did notice there was wear on the bottom side of the rockers where they push on the valves. Looks like I just need to invest in new rocker arms and a shafts.
May 26th, 2018, 02:53 PM
Stuck Up Engine
I haven't counted them but it amounts to 1/2 of a coffee can full. It takes a lot of time if you are laying on your back on a cement floor looking up at a dirty transmission a lot easier on a table standing up looking down. You really need to check out the cylinder walls after it gets un stuck if for nothing else but piece of mind.
