So, I got pretty much everything buttoned up on my car (a 1967 Cutlass Supreme with the 330 V8, 4bbl) - or so I thought.
I went to turn it over yesterday, and it will crank and crank and crank but not fire up.



I checked to make sure the new carb was filling up, and squirting fuel - and it seemed fine (jets spraying with high pressure).

New battery, voltage checks out pretty much everywhere now.

When I put the engine together, I lined up the crankshaft and camshaft keyways at 6 and 12 oclock, respectively, with the distributor installed pointing at the #1 position (#8 position points directly to the driver's side fender, #3 pointing directly towards the firewall, etc).

I tried doing a compression test, but the gauge which I was renting was faulty (0 psi for everything, including pressurized air being blasted directly into it). I tried other places to rent gauges, with no such luck. I was unable to rent a timing light neither.

I made sure my rocker arms weren't over-tightened as well.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? At this point, I am almost tempted to have my car towed to an auto shop to have this final problem worked out - I am so frustrated after spending 4 months working towards getting it running and to have it so close - yet so far is very disconcerting.

 

I would pull #1 plug, and get it to tdc
on the compression stroke then check
where the rotor bug is sitting. That will be
your new #1. Then go through the firing order
counterclockwise. If you have a spark, she should fire.

 

Thanks for the advice. How will I know if the cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke?

 

I always use a helper.
Stick your finger or thumb
over the hole and have someone
bump it over till the piston comes
up and pushes air out.

 

As per above directions, bump the engine over with your finger over the spark plug hole and when it blows your finger off the hole you will be very close. You can verify by look at your timing marks for TDC.

Pat

 

Wow guys that sounds very doable and has given me more encouragement.
I have told my fiance, we are going to go try that right now!
Thanks a million!

 

Check back in, let us know how it goes....

 

1. Do you, in fact, have a good, hot spark?


2. Do you have voltage at the (+) coil terminal with the ignition on?



3. Just buy a compression gauge - they're cheap.
And pick up a timing light and a dwell/tach at a flea market or yard sale for $5.



4. We have a problem here, Houston.

The cam and crank are aligned by dots on the edges of the sprockets, not by the keyways.
The crank keyway should be at about the 1:30 position, and I don't even remember where the cam keyway faces.

See this photo from Mac's thread:

Topdeadcenteron1.jpg

If you lined it up like you said, it ain't gonna run.

- Eric

 

Okay, well I had to retard the #1 position by 90 degrees. Still got nothing :/

In regards to #1 and #2 Q's - Yes, with the key "On" - the coil + terminal was reading 11.8V.

In regards to #4 - I mis-spoke. I did not mean the keyways, but the dots on the sprockets.

In regards to #3, I would like to, and will keep my eyes out. Or I may visit Harbor Freight some time soon.

You guys weren't joking when you said it will blow your thumb/finger right out of the hole lolol

Tomorrow evening if there is still daylight when I get home, I may try switching the #1 position on the distributor by 45 degrees just to see if perhaps our concerted reflexes weren't the retarded part

 

If you've got a good spark, and you've got fuel, and the sprockets are lined up right, then the next most popular screw-up is to have the wires on 180° out of sync.

Now that you have found TDC, make sure that the rotor is pointing to #1 wire and not #6 wire.

- Eric

 

What might be the next thing to check? I reinstalled the plug wires just after getting #1 to TDC following the same firing order as the old intake manifold and service manual indicate :/

 

Well... With no timing light...

Since you've ascertained TDC on compression on #1, and rotor position at the same time, if you connect a test light between ground and the (-) coil terminal, turn on the ignition, and rotate the engine with a wrench (easier with the plugs out) from well before TDC #1 to wel after, the test light should go out somewhere between about 10°BTDC and TDC. That will prove that your spark timing is right.

This is becoming a real mystery.

- Eric

 

Have you checked for power at the coil while cranking? It is possible for it to have juice in the run position and not in the cranking position. Therefore it never fires.

 

x2 on Smitty's comment.

 

If you have to by pass the ingnition switch and run your own hot wire. I like doing this with a jump wire that has a relay in it. For safety. And use a remote starter button. This puts you at the engine and in control of all things at the same time. Not oh crap shut if off you just pull the wire and you are off.
Plus you know then what has power and what doesn't.

 

Forgive me if this was covered but have you pulled a plug wire and inserted a screwdriver in it and grounded it to see if you are getting a spark at the plug?

Craig

 

X 3 to Smitty's comment.

Hadn't thought if that, but with the pre-'68 cars, it's a real possibility, and exactly the sort of thing that can take years off your life and hairs off your head.

- Eric

 

Hadn't thought if that, but with the pre-'68 cars, it's a real possibility, and exactly the sort of thing that can take years off your life and hairs off your head.

- Eric[/QUOTE]

Yep. Not likely any of
us had been over there
and done some of that stuff.

I remember asking my G/F 30 some
yrs ago, 'just barely bump it.'

I still go out to the garage every once
in a while, and call on that same girl for
the same reason.

 

And this is why I joined the forum to begin with.
With this wealth of knowledge, I knew you guys could throw some more ideas at me!
If the rain lets off, when I get home I will first try seeing if the coil has power while cranking. If that passes, then I will try retarding and advancing the distributor position by 1 cylinder.

What might cause there to be no power at the coil under cranking but power when the key is just turned to on? Just a bad coil, or perhaps a bad switch somewhere?

Finally, if that checks out and the advancing/retarding timing does not get me fired up - I will try testing a plug to verify spark there..

 

The starter solenoid "I" terminal provides full battery voltage to the coil to bypass the resistance wire from the key.

 

Do this next while your g/f
is cranking it over to see if
you get a good solid spark.

Looks like you're running a points
system. I have had condensers
bad right out of the box. This will
kill the spark as well.

 

I will definitely try it out - but I have converted to electronic Ignition with the Pertronix Ignitor II conversion. Perhaps it is the distributor which is the problem (now that I recall, it was very difficult to get the magnet and pickup coil at proper distances both when the gear was extended and retracted).

 

Oh Man... If those things
are not just right...

Have you access to an
another dist. Either points w/coil,
or HEI to just try it? Have you
had the engine running with this
new Pertronix set-up?

 

It's an ignition switch variation.
Some (but not all, apparently) pre-'68 switches have no contact for powering the IGN circuit while the key is in the START position. They rely on the starter solenoid to make the connection to its "R" terminal and power the coil through the yellow wire while cranking. If any part of this system isn't right, you have power to the coil with the ignition ON, but no spark while cranking.

Which reminds me: earlier I asked if you had a good hot spark and you said you did.
Do you?

- Eric

 

Gotcha. I replaced the starter with a new one which does not have the R terminal, and have eliminated that yellow wire. I was told that I would then need to convert to an electronic distributor - which is why I went with the Pertronix kit.
Could this be the phantom which is plaguing me!?

I tested the coil at the + terminal and it read 11.8V - I figured what the other posters were referring to the spark-wire which runs from coil to distributor cap.

 

I still have the upgraded points and condensor set-up for my distributor before I converted it to the Pertronix kit - however I have a new starter without the R terminal, so I do not think I can go back to points.

 

Yes, but does it read 11.8V while you are holding the key in the START position?

If not, you can rectify the situation with a relay.

- Eric

 

It looks like I will have to do this testing tomorrow - the rain here isn't letting up.
Thanks for the heads up, I really can't wait to get testing!
(Voltage at the coil while turning the key to start it will be the first test)

 

This is kind of how my days begin each morning when I hear the alarm clock and hit the snooze button.

 

I just installed the exact same Pertronix unit as you a couple of weeks ago, and it works perfectly.
If it ends up that you have voltage at the (+) terminal on the coil, let's go back to post #2 and verify that you have the distributor (rotor) pointing at your #1 Plug wire......... You mentioned that you stabbed it a couple of different times.......... (if you have questions about how to accomplish this step, please let us know and we can be more detailed in our explanation).

 

So I finally got to test the electrical system a little.
While turning over, the coilpack + terminal is reading ~8V.
I then moved onto the spark plug wires. I put a screwdriver in contact with the interior metal of the plug wire in the boot, and grounded that to the battery ground.
When turning over, the spark plug wire was getting.....0V!
I am pretty sure I have found the problem.
Just wanted to confirm the voltage reading for the coilpack while turning over sounded right, and that the technique for testing the spark plug wires was correct as well. Tomorrow if time allows I will pull the distributor (making sure to indicate exactly where the rotor is pointing currently), rework the Ignitor II system to make sure it falls completely in spec, re-install the dist. in the same position as before pulling it, and retry.
Fingers crossed!

 

I don't think you want to put the distributor back where it was. Refer to post #2 in this thread. Find #1 cylinder TDC, find #1 plug wire on the cap, and then stab the distributor, lining up the rotor point with #1 plug wire. As you know, the rotor will turn about 20 degrees as it slides down in to the motor, so you have to allow for that when stabbing.
To check for spark, use plug #1 that you removed, put the plug wire on it, and touch the end of the plug to ground (exhaust manifold will work fine). Have someone turn the key and see if the plug is sparking.

 

Make sure you have the plug wires connected to the distributor cap in the correct order. It is opposite to a chevy. I unscrupulously copied this from Allan R

 

I have already done that procedure, although I was not aware of the distributor gear moving the position of the rotor 20 degrees when placing. I had it lined up at TDC. Also, I mispoke when I said the spark plug received 0V, I meant the spark plug wire, which is what was hooked up lol.
The problem is definitely at the distributor, provided that the ~8V range for the output of the coilpack is indeed correct.
I will rework the distributor and put it back in position lined up to start firing on #1 when I put the motor back at the position with the #1 cylinder at TDC of the compression stroke.

 

Good.


Say what?!?

Just to confirm: You grounded a spark plug lead and measured the potential difference ("voltage") between it and ground while cranking?

HS physics review: You GROUNDED IT, then you measured the voltage between IT and GROUND.
What will the voltage be between two things that are connected to each other, with no resistance between them?
Right: ZERO.

What you need to do is to put a screwdriver into the boot and set it up so that a portion of the metal part of the screwdriver is about ¾" from a ground (like the engine block) and no portion is any closer than that (DO NOT hold it, or you will quickly understand why little telephone ringer generators were so popular amongst people who didn't work for the CIA in little third world countries back in the good old days), then crank the engine and watch for spark. ¾" should be no problem for the spark to jump, and if you move the screwdriver away a bit, it should be able to jump 1", too.

Once you know whether you are getting a good spark, let us know.



That's okay. He unscrupulously copied it from AutoZone.

- Eric

 

That is not enough voltage for starting with a Pertronix. You need to run a wire from the start side of the ignition switch to 12 volts so the Pertronix gets a full 12V to start.

 

Have you been charging the battery? Cranking voltage shouldn't drop below 10 volts during cranking on a good battery. How fast does she turn over when cranking? You might just have a bad battery!