babs68

I was working on the car today and was about to put on the new valve covers and noticed that this is much looser than the rest. It is a 350 V8 and currently sitting TDC.

When hand cranking the engine it does become less loose. Is it because the engine is at TDC that this is becoming loose?

I'm not sure how to embed videos on here so below is the link.

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oldcutlass

Since there is nothing to tighten once its tight I'd say you may have an issue. Before you reinstall your valve covers run the engine and see if its pumping oil and then turn the engine off and check again.

babs68

Unfortunately, I am still putting the engine and all the dressings on and won't be firing it up anytime soon.

It's unfortunate because this is a rebuilt engine and I don't want to suspect that the shop that I have gone to court to get this car back may have done something.

Worse case scenario what could be causing this?

oldcutlass

It hasn't been started since a rebuild? If so, nothing wrong the lifters are not pumped up. You need to prime the engine.

oddball

No rocker should be that loose. The one next to it is still a little loose but could be ok.

There's no adjustment for lifter preload on stock rockers. Since it's only one that's not set right I'd pull that pushrod and make sure it's not bent. If it's straight, then compare it to another one. Maybe they put in one short pushrod?
Something is off there.

Hydraulic lifters should have some preload, which means the pushrod is compressing the lifter when it is on the seat of the cam. So there should always be some tension on the pushrods. Check around for how to adjust aftermarket rockers to get a better idea on preload. It's harder to figure out with stock rockers due to the rocker bridge.

babs68

What I'm going to do is when it is ready to be broken in I will have a shop that knows their way around an engine.

Currently, I do not trust my own skills breaking apart this engine so I think I would do more damage than good.

Turning the engine that rocker does get tighter, but maybe as Eric mentioned that because he has never been primed or gone through the break in process the lifters have not been pumped up yet.

It will be a couple more months before this thing gets to breathe and fire up. I'm crossing my fingers that this is not a big set back.

babs68

I'm not sure how the push rod may be already bent because it has not seen any miles yet and the engine has only been hand cranked about 4 times.

oldcutlass

I'd go ahead and prime the engine while moving it 180 degrees before putting the v/c on. See if it tightens up.

Macadoo

But you, yourself, said you don't trust the shop that built it and that you had to go through some unpleasantness to get it back. I'm with oddball; pull that pushrod and check it against another that is not loose. It could be bent or just shorter. Maybe swap it with another from a tight rocker and see if it remains on the same valve or moves. If you have the skills to remove the valve covers, you can pull a pushrod. Just torque the bolts back down to specs (is it 25 ft lbs?).
And Eric may very well be right; maybe the lifter isn't pumped up at all but that seems REALLY loose to me. I recently went through something similar where my new cam base circle turned out to be smaller than stock, making all my rockers a tad loose. But nothing like what you're seeing.
Could it be a bad lifter? Something weird under the rocker bridge like a washer?

Octania

Oldcutlass, this is not how lifters operate. There is a spring inside that always keeps them extended such that the inner plunger is out as far as it can go, up to the retainer.

The plunger moves from there down a bit when the rocker is tightened- except not in this case because that one is showing zero lifter preload.

It needs to be investigated.
With 0 run time we can probably rule out a bad lifter/ lobe situation.

I agree with the above, pull that pushrod and a well behaved one, compare, then swap places and see if issue follows pushrod or stays with rocker.

Other possible causes
severely worn rocker pedestal where rocker contacts it- usually obvious but maybe not to a Ford mechanic.

Worn rockers - that much wear would be all the way thru!

Incorrect pushrods, etc.

OP, I highly recommend you now learn the procedure to verify that lifter preload is correct, for all your valves. If your skill set cannot master this, then have someone you trust do it. Now is the time, not after you fire it up like that and it clatters, runs poorly, and then goes BANG.

Also, if the assembler cannot verify the simplest thing like preload, WHAT ELSE DID THEY MESS UP?

oy vey

babs68

That has always been my concern is that they may have tinkered with it while it was sitting there throughout litigation. The actual rebuild was done by someone else. Unfortunately he has gone to that great engine builder land in the sky.

I'll pull the push rod out tonight and compare a couple of them. You're right and it's probably best I learn this now and I do appreciate the patience help you guys are providing me.

When putting the push rod back in should it just slide in if I have t turned the engine? Also, should I lube it once it needs to go back in (That's what she salid)?

Octania

"Also, should I lube it once it needs to go back in (That's what she salid)? "

Just the tip
The tip, as you must know, is the most sensitive part of the rod.
Bears the brunt of the wear and tear.

wls559

Lol, I'll uncover the Children's eyes and ears now! But so true.

Macadoo

Oh lord....

babs, let me know if you need any parts. I have my stock pushrods, rocker arms (2k miles), and rocker bridges collecting dust since I went with the roller tips. No charge, just the ride (shipping). All from my '71 350. You didn't mention what year your car is.

babs68

Thank you for the offer and my set up is a 68 350 with AC. I'll see what the damage is later tonight and post pictures.

babs68

When I'm working on the push Rod and rocker arm section do I need to crank the engine to relieve and compression on that valve? Or should I just keep it TDC?

Macadoo

Some folks here will say that you should get the lifter on the base circle (both valves closed) before torquing that particular rocker arm, and you probably should. I don't think it matters when loosening.
BTW, there are two TDCs; the TDC on the compression stroke (both valves closed) and TDC on the exhaust stroke.

jaunty75

Ah, a question that has befuddled mankind since ancient times.

babs68

All jokes aside I spent some time taking the pushrods out and comparing the loose one to a few that sat correctly and they all look good. I even switched the retainers and after tightening down the retainer that one rocker is still loose and I'm all out of ideas.

oldcutlass

I'm thinking the lifter is stuck in the collapsed position. I still think that priming and pressurizing the oil system may clear it.

babs68

It will take a few months for me to get everything going on the engine, should I wait till then to prime it?

Macadoo

And the rocker pads (the flat metal area the rockers and bridges bolt in to) looked nice and flat, normal, like the others? No washers or anything under that rocker?
Next, I would measure that valve's height in comparison with the others. It's possible the builder ground down that one stem but didn't compensate for it.
If I had to guess, I'd say you have a collapsed lifter. Was that rocker tight before you cranked it by hand? Could be that the lifter was compressed during the crank (normal) but didn't bounce back (abnormal). I have a sticky lifter in my 350 and they're brand new lifters. I have to use the GM EOS (engine oil supplement) or I'll have a bad tick. Not the perfect scenario but I'd rather drive than tear back into my engine

Macadoo

Could she/he squirt some brake cleaner or something down the pushrod hole and let it soak?

oldcutlass

I wouldn't

babs68

I'm a dude.

The pads looked brand new and there are no washers under the rockers. I even switched the rockers and retainers around and I get the same results. I haven't measured the height of each one, but I'll do that tomorrow.

The only reason why I'm putting faith in the builder is he, in the past, has built two other engines for my brother. One for his 442 and the other for his convertible, so he was a solid builder.

I'll look at it one more time tomorrow and if I can't find anything else I'll continue with the build and once I prime it for start up I'll look at that valve one more time and see if Eric's theory is correct.

Macadoo

Sounds like a plan. Good luck

babs68

I checked the heights today and everything measures the same. I also popped open the other valve cover just to make sure none of the other rocker arms were loose and it seems like they are good to go and it is just that one.

Hmmmmmm....

Macadoo

Gotta' be a lifter then. Is the engine out? I'd rather change a lifter while the engine is out than while it's in. If it's in, then definitely stick with your plan.

babs68

The engine is already in and hooked up to the trans. I'm hoping it will free up once everything is pressurized.

I needed to move forward for now just to make sure everything else that my brother bought fits and see what he bought that the shop "lost" so I can replace them.

The shop I'm going to take this to, to break in the engine, will know about the problem and see what they can do before running it through the ringer.

Macadoo

What? You're going to deny yourself that 20 minute panic attack?! If I ever have to do that again, I'm getting myself an adult diaper, lol.
Let us know how it turns out.

Octania

You can pressurize the oil system right now by means of a 5/16 socket, an extension, and a reversible drill which turns counterclockwise. The oil pump drive rod is below the distributor.

babs68

Mac, the garage that I have this car in shouldn't even be considered a one car garage. I have about a foot or less of space on each side and getting in the driver side of the car takes a little finesse. I have about 2-3 feet of space to work on the front end, but once the core support is back on it barely clears the garage door rails. That's why I want to get car somewhat rolling so I can just drive in and out of the garage when I need to work the cosmetics.

I'll take a pic just to give you an idea of the workspace.

Octania, would it be too early to put some oil in and pressurize the oil system if I know it won't be ready until November or December?

Octania

hell, no
why wait? ?You can do it with like 2 qts if that is an issue. Not running the engine, you are just pressurizing the oil passages.

Put that lifter on the base circle so it is as sloppy as possible.
Run the drill CCW on the pump. Watch that rocker. If it tightens up suddenly, then the lifter was stuck with the plunger at the bottom of travel and the pressurized oil fixed that.

If the thing is still loose with oil pressure, then either the lifter is REALLY stuck, or something else is wrong.

The pushrods were all the same, rockers and fulcrums not worn, and swapping parts leaves the problem where that lifter is, right?

Macadoo

That would only leave the lifter or the cam lobe. Unless somethings up with the valve but I think babs measured those. What about the lifter bore?

oldcutlass

I would rotate the engine by hand a few times after all the rockers show oil flow while still operating the drill. If it stays pumped up after that I wouldn't worry about it.

babs68

Pushrods are the same length, rockers and fulcrums are brand new and I did do the swapping and same problem. Would the lifters be on the base circle if the 1 valve is TDC on the compression stroke. That's when the rockers and pushrods are the loose aka sloppiest.

I'll get a buddy to come over to help me crank the engine while I drill.

Macadoo

If you get the piston to TDC on the compression stroke, both lifters will be on the base circle. Otherwise one valve would be partially open and it wouldn't compress.

If you're using a socket and extension in your drill, make sure to tape that socket on nice and tight. I've read of folks loosing that socket inside the engine

Macadoo

Oh, and one more thing: On my break-in day I'd had too much coffee and too little sleep. Filled the engine with oil, put that drill on there and twisted away...but forgot to put on the oil filter. That took a while to clean up!

oldcutlass

I'll add make sure your oil pressure gauge is hooked up, don't ask why I know.

MDchanic

Bottom of your hood, or ceiling of your garage?

- Eric