71OldsCut

If there is that small 1/8" or so amount of play in the up/down direction of the rotor does that rule out that the gear is grinding? There was no wobble to this one at all so hopefully it is good. I will check that out tomorrow. I am just happy that so far it is working a lot better.

I was also wondering if it were out by a tooth in either direction I assume it would run poorly enough to where it wouldn't be fixed with tuning or would it be a small enough difference most couldn't tell? I am tempted to try getting it back in with the rotor slightly the other way and see what happens, but at the same time it is running so much better do I want to mess with it....

oldcutlass

There really is no such thing as being a tooth off as far as the timing goes because you rotate the distributor to set it. Where being a tooth off comes into play is when the distributor has interference with either the engine or firewall preventing you from rotating the distributor enough to set the correct timing.

71OldsCut

Ah, I see. Thanks. I had been trying to think that through in my head but wasn't sure if the gear being off would throw the valves opening and closing at the right times off. Well that is good then. I was leaning that way due to most saying how accurate TDC had to be for installing distributors was relaxed compared to marking it on the balancer. I am looking forward to the cold start tomorrow and digging into getting this thing as dialed in as I can.

oldcutlass

Don't confuse valve timing and ignition timing, they are 2 separate functions. Valve timing (the actual opening and closing of the valves) is controlled by the cam and timing chain with relation to crank position and is not adjustable. Ignition timing is specifically for when the spark is provided to ignite the fuel and is driven off the cam and is adjustable.

droldsmorland

Is this new one "level"? Did the Old(new) one look bent?
Up down play is normal there should be a little.
Vac canister set at 16* is too much IMO. Use full vacuum not ported. Your better off with more base and less vac adv.
Set base at 10-12-14* Set vac can to 8-10*. (varies a bit for your ambient conditions, elevation, driving habit, and octane).
Play around with the base timing and the air/fuel screws using a vacuum gauge(highest reading tweaking both). Then go at the vac advance.
I suggest a setback timing light to know exactly how much the two timing events are putting in. Its easier to adjust each independently with a setback light IMO.
Set light to 0* and set base at ~650-750ish RPM curb idle. Adjust the A/F then base.
Keep it running and turn t.light back to 0*. Hook up vac can and adjust to 8-10*
Road test and retweak each of the above.
Repeat until your putting nice 11s on the pavement.

I do suggest making sure you are at TDC with the distributor.
Bump it over(someone turning the key in short blips) while your finger is in #1 hole till it spits it out. Line up balancer with TDC on the tab. The dist should drop in. If not the oil pump drive could be holding it from seating.
To remedy this, hold dist base in place while having someone bump the key. It should go ka-plunk into its correct position. You can try it a few times till you get it. This is where a remote start switch comes in handy.

71OldsCut

Oddly enough the new one sits at that same tilted angle. I made sure it was nice and clean where it sits in there, guess it is just supposed to be that way. I wish I would have noticed if the original points one sat the same way.

There was no noticeable bend in the one I took out.

It fired up first shot today, no restart needed. High idled at about 1300rpm and slowly crept up to about 1400rpm after a minute or so then settled at about 1200rpm after a couple minutes before I kicked it out then dropped to about 750rpm. Once warmed up I checked timing with vacuum advance plugged. At 750rpm it was only 6 degrees. I bumped it up to 12 and then 14 degrees where it is now.

Vacuum has been turned down to about 8 degrees. So, idling at 750rpm it is about 22 degrees with vacuum connected.

I switched to the heavier springs because it seemed to be coming all in around 2000rpm. With the springs changed it is about 3000rpm now.

I have only road tested it with base at 14 degrees so I am going to try a little more and a little less and see if there is any noticeable difference.

A couple of questions - do you set fuel mixture screws with vacuum advanced connected? Seems to be some hard arguements for both sides from what I can see.

And last - now that i can actually drive the car, what would i be looking for when adjusting that secondary clock spring? Is it just how smooth and responsive it gets into the power or is there something else. It's hard to be tweaking stuff like that when i dont know what chance i am looking for.

Fun71

If the secondary spring is too loose, the engine will bog when quickly going WOT. It's a trial and error process to get it dialed in precisely.

oldcutlass

I don't know why you feel the need to adjust the clock spring?

71OldsCut

Its just because I probably messed it up the first time around when we were looking for possible problems. Right now it is just tightened to where it closed the plates and 1/4 turn past that point which was recommended as a starting point. Maybe if everything is working I will just leave it.

droldsmorland

That's perfect or at least a good baseline, 14-8...22 and the rest in at 26-3000 rpms.(36-38-40* total)

Set the A/F mix at curb idle, advance can hooked up, at op temp with the choke fully open. You can go back n forth between timing and AF mix to super tune and find the sweet spot.

There are 2 types of adjustable advance cans. Adj rate and adj travel. I suggest the travel. The travel limits it to what you set it to. Use full manifold vacuum not ported.

Smooth hard acceleration to WOT is what you should feel. If you feel a bog or hesitation try tweaking it in very small increments. GENERALLY.. low RPM bog means too loose(too rich too soon), hesitation means too tight (lean late AVS signal).

Fun71

To give you an idea of what a small increment means, I have found that an 1/8 turn adjustment can make a big difference in operation. And remember to hold the adjustment screw in position while you loosen the Allen set screw; otherwise the spring will unwind and you have to start all over again. I learned this the hard way.

71OldsCut

Ok, if need be I will cautiously dig into that adjustment later.

After driving around yesterday, I came out this morning eagerly anticipating how well it would start from cold. It was actually back fairly close to where it was before where it would start, run for a few seconds and then die. All I did was change the timing and fuel mixture so I figured I would back those off a bit closer to where it was originally. It started and idled good with 6* base and 16* vacuum, so now I am at 10* base and about 11* vacuum. I readjusted the fuel mixture screws which seem to not have to be wound out as much with the more conservative numbers.

I'm not sure why the engine seems to be different that most in terms of liking less timing, or at least a different way of timing. The combined number of base + vacuum is about the same, but maybe it has something to do with the higher vacuum falling away as RPM goes up? I wasn't really beating on it at all during the drive, but it really didn't seem much different with both settings. It still seemed a bit sluggish. I do have some small exhaust leaks up front that give it a bit of a beater sound so maybe that is playing into it a bit too.

Rain screwed my test drive over today, but I will see if it starts any better in the morning and maybe play around with it some more after that.

One other thing I was wondering is what RPM roughly should it be idling at when in high idle? Is that 1300-1400 mine was at a little on the high side or is that about normal?

71OldsCut

So I have put the timing back to where it was with about 6* base at 750RPM and 16* vacuum advance to see if that helps it start at all, will know tomorrow. If it does, I can try small adjustments from there.

With those settings, it seemed to drive about the same. I did hit the gas hard enough from cruising at about 30MPH and it kicked down a gear, made all sorts of nice music and I was happy with it, but when I let off the gas it seemed to be idling higher than before. I got it back to the garage and it was higher than the 750 or so I had set it too. It was up around 900 or so. I tried backing the idle speed screw out but it did nothing, it wasn't even making contact anymore but the speed wouldn't drop. A quick shut down and restart fixed it, but why would it do this? I checked to make sure the timing hadn't slipped and it was where I left it...

oldcutlass

Check your choke, make sure the high speed adjustment is not engaged. Your initial timing is not advanced enough and your using too much vacuum advance. You need to limit the vacuum advance to 10* with a stop, and bump your initial to 14/15* to start with.

71OldsCut

Ok, I will see how the cold start goes tomorrow. I would rather have higher base timing with less vacuum, but for some reason it doesn't seem to like starting like that. It turns over nice and fast and fires up, but then dies, where under the settings it has now, at least last time fires up one shot and ran nice. If it does start I will try to bump the base timing up and back vacuum timing off in 2* increments and see where I can get to before it starts having the starting issue.

oldcutlass

I don't think that vac canister works that way. I believe the adjustment screw adjusts at what vacuum level the canister starts to move and fully comes in. By trying to compensate for the amount of advance you may run into the canister fluctuating at cruise or idle. You need a physical stop like this:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-99619-1/

71OldsCut

Well, the cold start was the same with the timing settings dialed back the way they were so I adjusted them back to 14* base timing and 8* vacuum. It looks like it could come in a little sooner. Right now I have the two heaviest springs on there now. I will switch one out for a medium weight spring and see what that does.

My neighbor thought the cold start issue could be choke related, and Ken who built the carb confirmed it could be. I have moved the black adjustment cover plate a couple notches to the rich side and will see what that does tomorrow morning.

The only other issue is when getting on the gas hard enough to kick the transmission down after letting off the idle doesn't return to normal. It has happened both times I did it. I confirmed that the choke wasn't stuck on at all. My neighbor suggested that the secondary throttle blades might be sticking open a bit. Ken confirmed this could be the cause too. He says to open the secondary blades on the top of the carb and if the engine changes or speeds up it likely is stuck throttle blades.

Anyway, the major issues look like they are solved. I may make minor tweaks here and there, but I think the worst is over.

Thanks for all the help. While it was extremely frustrating at some points the amount I have learned and tools I have acquired that will for sure help me down the road were well worth it.

oldcutlass

Are you pumping the gas pedal 1- 1 1/2 pumps to set the choke before starting the engine cold? Use one light and 1 medium spring in the distributor. Leave the rest of the timing alone.

droldsmorland

Have you verified gas pedal and throttle cable for smooth movement? unhook at the carb. Actuate carb to feel how smooth it operates. Operate the cable for the same. Then do it for the TH350 kick down cable.
Thanks for sticking it out. You are now past a beginner. Another satisfied customer.

71OldsCut

I have experimented with half, one, one and a half and two pumps of the gas all with the same result. I usually just do one now. I will check the throttle cable for smooth movement throughout its range as well as opening and closing the carb secondaries by hand to see if there are any rough spots. I did check the kick down cable but will check that again too. It is nice to be down to small issues that don't heavily impact the car's ability to be driven, at least gently anyway. And it is nice that even if kicked down and the idle sticks a little high, a simple restart gets it fixed.

droldsmorland

Thats perplexing that a start-stop cures the high idle? When it does this what happens when you "kick" the gas pedal like you would do to kick down the choke. Are you familiar with what I'm describing? If this is your first carbureted car you may not?

71OldsCut

It is not my first carbureted car, but it has been a good 15 years since my last one.

I was thinking the same thing. To me, if the throttle blades were stuck open a bit, simply shutting off and restarting the engine wouldn't fix the issue I don't think. The first time it happened I did give the engine a quick rev a few time but it didn't help. I guess I will do it again tomorrow after the choke adjustment and see if it happens again. I doubt adjusting the choke like I did would have any impact, but I really don't know what it could be. I am waiting for Ken's reply in case he may have a clue.

droldsmorland

With a cold engine, pull the air cleaner. Actuate the throttle 2Xs. Does the choke flap close shut completely? If so good. If not its not set rich enough. Give the black cap a twist until it closes.

Now start engine without touching the gas pedal. It should start and the choke should "pull off" or open about 3/16th" immediately. If it doesn't pull-open the choke pull off diaphragm setting needs adjusting or the diaphragm is shot.

If everything checks to this point let it run for 30 secs to 1min. High idle is 1700. Now kick it down to the next level 1100-1300ish. Let it run another 30 sec. Then kick it totally off the choke. When I say kick it I mean snap it quickly. A quick tap in 3/4 to full throttle snapping it completely off. Might need to do it twice. It should come down to curb idle.

Once totally warm ~2 minutes give it a fairly smooth 3/4 throttle then back to idle in one smooth motion(by hand under the hood air cleaner off without the snap you did with your foot). Does the fast idle cam stay completely off its detents and return to curb idle? If no the fast idle and choke settings need tweaking. The choke isn't pulling completely off causing the high idle problem.

71OldsCut

- I tried this and everything seemed fine. It only seems to be an issue in gear under heavy load. But, depending on what you guys think of the above situation maybe it does have something to do with a poorly adjusted choke.

oldcutlass

The reason the choke is not dropping to the second level is probably due to warm outside air temp and the engine warming up. Chokes work much better in winter, really don't even need it in warm weather.

71OldsCut

I see. That is good to know then. Hopefully the increased RPM will get it to fire up first shot and enter high idle. I will give that a shot tomorrow morning and then give the high RPM after hard acceleration some attention.

71OldsCut

Looks like that did the trick. It fired up without stalling. It ran a little rough for the first few seconds before smoothing out in high idle. But, on the test drive about 10 minutes in it started to stumble really bad and stall. After playing around with a few things under the hood it fired back up and I limped it home.

I was playing around with it in the garage trying to figure out what is going on. It would start and run rough, and I found that when I giggled the power and tach wires going to the new distributor that it stalled. So I assumed I did a bad wiring job. I was using that pig tail piece that snaps into the distributor. I figured I would try just running a new power wire to one of those spade fittings and just connect it directly, same with the tach. When I went to fire it up, nothing. I was really confused now thinking how could I mess up such a simple wiring job... twice. But, then I noticed a wire with a spade fitting right by those two wires that wasn't connected to anything, and that I haven't seen before. Turns out one of the three wires that go from the distributor to the cap was off. I have never messed with these before. The red wire fell out of the plastic clip that plugs into the cap. it wouldn't snap back into the fitting with the other two wires, so I took the cap off and with it upside down was able to clip it back in. It seems secure so hopefully that will stay in now.

When I took it to work a few days ago it ran good most of the way there, about a 30 minute drive. But I noticed it seemed to be somewhat rough at the red lights the last 5 minutes and actually stalled at the last light just before getting in the parking lot. I thought maybe I just had the idle to low and bumped it up a bit. It actually drove well all the way home. So I suppose if this wire was loose that was more likely the cause. It probably wasn't helping the starting situation either.

After all this I took it for another 10 minute drive or so and it seemed ok. As I was pulling it back in the garage it seemed like it might have been starting again, but seemed to idle fine and rev smooth so I think after all this I am just paranoid, lol. I will let it cool off and repeat the test drive later and see what happens.

71OldsCut

I think the warm running condition of the car is all sorted out. After finding that wire and getting it secured in place it has a total of around 2 hours or smooth running on it.

The only thing left is getting the choke situation sorted out, but if that is all I am good with it. Should this car in warm weather for sure have that mid level idle where you can put it in gear and drive without issues? It will high idle at about 1600-1700 for a minute or so before the RPM starts coming down on its own to about 1300-1400. after a couple of minutes I kick it down but even with just a slight push of the throttle it drops right down to low idle. I think this would normally be fine, but in order to have the operating temp idle at about 600RPM in gear, when it hits low idle and isn't fully warm it drops to about 700RPM and once it is put in gear it drops low enough that it will idle rough and if the gas it touched it stumbles and comes close to stalling. If I bump it up it will mess the operating temp up and be too high.

Is there any adjustment I can make that will help with this, or do I just let it idle long enough to get the RPM up? I was watching it this morning with the timing light hooked up to get the RPM readings and as it say the RPM did slowly climb from that 700 up to the 790 or so that I had it set at, it just takes about 10 minutes to get there.

If there is no fix for this, I can live with it. It is just nice to have it actually run and drive nicely once it is warmed up. Just all the articles I come across about choke adjustments say that if your carbureted car doesn't start and run as nice as the injected newer cars the choke isn't adjusted right. I would rather not settle and get this working right to if possible.

Fun71

I found that increasing the initial timing resulted in the engine maintaining RPM when going from neutral to gear, and even when turning the AC on. But then again, for 20 or so years it ran fine with the points distributor set to 10º initial.

71OldsCut

Interesting, it seems to me I am on the edge of the sweet spot. It is drivable but I think it could be a lot better. At light throttle there still seems to be a bit of lag around the 1100RPM range. Current settings are 14* base, about 9* vacuum, and the distributor claims another 23* all in. Right now it gets to about 36* at 3000ish RPM and that is using the two heaviest weight springs. It also is at about 23* idling.

Now that I at least have an established base line of what works I am just trying to fine tune things to see if anything works better. I thought it was strange that I am using the two heaviest springs to get these numbers when most others seem to be using a mix of the two lighter springs. The distributor guide also shows that the heavier springs I am using shouldn't be all in until over 5000RPM. Should I be changing any of the bushings in there as well as the springs?

I figured I would try out some lighter springs and see what happens. I used a medium weight spring with a light spring and that was a no go. The car was idling at about 32* and the really strong smell was back. I shut it down and tried a heavy spring and a medium spring. It seemed to idle the same at 23* and the smell was gone. I didn't make it far on the test drive though. It was really not happy when getting on the gas lightly. It was really rough and hesitant and felt like it was about to stall.

So, I put the two heaviest springs back in and it runs decent like before. I even thought maybe the lag was in my head so I got on it a bit from a stop and it put some rubber down. Like I said, it isn't bad, just still feels sluggish at light throttle and the cold start issue remains. That is why as stated above I feel like I am on the edge of the sweet spot. It seems odd that going from two heavy springs that I suspect shouldn't be needed in the first place to one heavy spring with one medium spring makes it un-drivable. To me that seems like a very small change that if anything shouldn't have much of an effect until higher RPM, but maybe I am underestimating how big of change that one spring is.

Fun71

Hmm. While tuning, I tried 2 light springs and, while it made some of the mechanical advance come in at idle, the engine ran fine. The various spring combinations changed the RPM at which power came on, but it didn't have any noticeable impact on part throttle operation. No hiccups, flat spots, stumbles, etc.

71OldsCut

Ok, I will keep playing around with it and see if I can figure something out.