KRICHEN922

Hey everyone, I am going to be rebuilding my engine and was wondering what I need to get/know. I know I need to get new seals and gaskets etc, but I don't know where I should get them from. I plan on getting new API head bolts to replace the old ones that are prone to breaking, but other than the seals and gaskets this is the only part that I can think of that I would want to replace.
Basically what I am doing is taking the engine apart, cleaning the parts, checking for parts that need replacement, then putting her back together.

And for those that remember my coolant system problems, I did a flush fill on it and it held vaccuum very well. So no blown or cracked head. The thermostat is the source of my coolant loss, I think its frozen closed. So I'll be replacing that.
Thanks for your help, and if you have any questions on what I have said or didn't cover, please feel free to ask.

This is my first rebuild.

62DeVille&71Cutlass

How far so you plan on tearing it down? a quick teardown and gasket replacement works okay as long as you leave the block alone. my experience especially with older cars and motors. If you pull it down to a bare block (i.e. removing the crank, rods, cam, pistons) your going to need more parts not to mention the machine shop bill for making sure all the bores are still in spec the bearings still in spec etc. I've done a lot of business with www.oreillyauto.com you can buy a top to bottom gasket set at a fair price. And they are good fel-pro gaskets but it also depends of your going to make some improvements to the motor.

64Rocket

I would go with the "ARP" head studs, for a better clamping force.
As said above how far are you going to tear it down. If you remove the crank, pitons and so on, you can't use the same bearing again. If you go that far you will have to hot tank all the parts, for cleaning. When you assemble you need as clean as clean gets.

Gene

75regency

Hey,
good to know another diesel person is here. Here is a link to just a olds diesel site if you want info..there is also a forum for it if you wanted to know..
http://a350diesel.tripod.com/newmain.html

KRICHEN922

I've been on here for a couple of years now, so it's me who should be welcoming you, haha. Yes, I've been to the diesel page quite a bit but never seem to get my questions answered.

I would like to tear the engine all the way down if possible. It's been in the car for 24 years and the original owner did not take good care of it at all. I need to take it apart, find out why my glow plugs need a dash button to work, why my cruise is broken, why the engine hiccups, etc. buy what replacement parts I need, then fix it. If you guys could give me a ballpark estimate on how much that would cost, that would be much appreciated. Do you absolutely need a machine shop? I have access to a metals and autos shop at the high school.

Yeah, those apr studs. No idea why I said API.

oldzy

Just a FYI that if you search on youtube for "Turbo "S71" Olds Engine Build" you will find V8TV's (well Bill Travato actually) rebuild of a 350 DX Diesel engine that may help a bit for some things. They are good vids.

62DeVille&71Cutlass

yes it is mandatory unless you have the proper presses and can get the cam bearings in correctly and properly most presses won't handle the cam bearings, in my experience they require very strategic tools to get in. And once all the bearings are out the clearances or so tight and specific you will need machinist measurement equipment to know exactly which bearing sizes to get, if the block needs honed, bored, etc. It is well worth it to have the machine shop check it out otherwise just leave the bottom end alone and do a top end rebuild

64Rocket

When an engine is in use for 24 years, thing happen. With all the heat and cold cycles, them metal moves around. Yes it is all torqued down, but for that reason when you unbolt it all, the metal moves. So you need to re-torque it all and take measurements. A machine shop can put it all back into spec. When you use main studs and head studs, the clamping force is different, so you need to machine the engine back to spec.
Gene

getawaycar

I am a diesel mechanic by trade. I work for Cummins engine co. I am not familiar with Olds diesel engines, but I do understand very well the principals of diesel engine operation. Why do you want to rebuild your engine? Does it have blue smoke? Oil coming out the exhaust? Does it knock? Maybe low compression on one or more cylinders? If it is as simple as some hesitation and improperly fuctioning glow plugs a rebuild is probably un-necissary.

Most of the time hesitation is caused by fuel restriction. If you say the car was poorly maintained it is likely that the online fuel filter is plugged up. Another likely cause is an issue with the fuel pump (not the injection pump although that could have issues too) not flowing enough fuel to prevent starvation. If the vehicle has sat for any length of time with the fuel tank low it is probable that you have some algea in the tank causing restriction at the fuel pickup itself.

The glow plug issue may be as simple as bad glow plugs not slowing the controller to function properly. Disconnect all of the plugs from the daisy chain of wire. Test the resistance of each to ground. Glow plugs function by shorting to ground causing them to heat. From the wire post to the engine block they should measure less than 10 ohms resistance. Probably less than .5 ohms but as much as 10 ohms should function ok.

If you want to clean sludge from your crank case try adding a quart of diesel fuel to your engine oil and idle the engine for 10 minutes or so. You should see how clean the engines are inside that come to my shop with fuel in the oil.

Good Luck
Chris

KRICHEN922

Thanks for all the info guys this is clearing some stuff up.

Basically, I want to do a rebuild in part because the engine is dirty... really dirty (not the only reason, or the main reason). If I just cleaned the exterior, I wouldn't really be cleaning it. Also, whoever did the work on the car for the previous owner didn't replace the seals/gaskets after taking a part off. There is so many jerry rigged systems its not even funny. The glow plugs are slow, yes, but thats just because they need to be changed. The issue I really need to fix is that in order to run the glow plugs, I have to press a button located on the underside of the dash. This is an example of the jerryrigging that was done. I need to rewire them so they actually warm when the key is turned. He also has aftermarket relays in there, and a bunch of other things that I can see. I am pretty sure that the engine has been worked on with the same results (horrible jerryrigging of everything). This is why I want to tear it down. This way, I can make sure my engine is in good shape and all parts are where they are supposed to be.

I didn't describe the coughing very well. This is what it sounds like: rarararararararararararararararara raugh raugh raugh raugh raugh rauhrararararararara etc. The whole block shudders violently, seemingly twisting to one side. I've speculated that the fuel lines/filters are to blame, because whenever I have this problem, I'm idleing, and I can make it go away by pressing down on the accelerator. It blows smoke, but not in large quantities unless I really smack down the accelerator. Which is normal for a diesel. Then again, it can fill up a shop with acrid fumes.... but I think thats probably normal too.

I have an olds service manual for 78, and I'm probably going to get a torque wrench set. What's so hard about torquing the bolts myself? Same principle as torquing the lugnuts on your wheels. Unless you're saying that because of the fact that the metal isn't the same anymore, my torque specs are moot unless the engine is machined to like-new?

getawaycar

If you have never rebuilt an engine before make sure you take lots of pictures. Every piece you take off take a picture of it first. Put all hardware and fittings in labeled bags for every componant. You will make a mess. It is unavoidable to some degree. Buy yourself some drip pans from Grainger and have lots of rags and buckets for cleanup.

Find out what the highest torque value you need is and buy a click type torque wrench. The dial type is a pain as far as I am concerned. Also tap every single bolt hole. It will prevent a "false torque" when outing the engine together. Clean all of your hardware and replace any bolts with rust pitting on the threads or shank. You will also need a straight edge and a good quality scraper. I would recommend looking up "Super Scraper" on line. I bought one from a machinest and it is by far the best scraper I or anybody else in my shop has.

Chris

MDchanic

None of the problems you describe should require tearing down the engine to fix.

The glow plugs are a simple electrical issue, and many people set up a button and relay because the original systems are unreliable (not sure about Olds glow plug reliability specifically).

Intermittent missing, with good full-throttle performance, is likely a fuel issue - pump or injectors.

Smoke is a non-issue - diesels smoke. LOTS of smoke MAY mean it's time for a rebuild, but may just be a fuel issue.

From all I've ever heard, taking a diesel apart to clean it is a BAD IDEA.
Diesels run very clean as it is, compared to gas motors - black, sooty, and oily, sure, but clean. A diesel that is running well should not have anything bad inside that needs to be removed. Once you disturb the delicate balance of parts that have moved together over hundreds of thousands of miles, THEN the trouble starts.

- Eric

KRICHEN922

That's the thing. The odometer is broken, but that could have happened in the 10-15 years it was parked and rat infested. In august of '90 it had 20200 miles on it (it's a replacement engine installed in august of '88). Before I messed with the odometer, it read 192k miles. I don't know if that's because he messed with it too when it stopped working (wouldn't be surprised) or he really did drive it 88k (he never reset the odometer for the new engine) more miles in the at most 10 years until he parked it. If so, that would put it at just over 100k on the engine. It's plausible, because he did use it to drive down to his winter home in Florida (35 gallon auxillary tank in the back made it possible to not have to fill up until he got there) but the line that connects the auxillary tank to the fuel system is disconnected. I don't know when this happened. He has a plane that he uses to fly himself down there now, but I don't know when he started doing that.

Anyways, I didn't list the jerryrigging done on the engine because I haven't looked. I just know he has had someone work on it who mangled all the other repairs I have seen. It worries me. I also want to replace some of the weak parts that are the reason why the engine had so many problems. This could save me from having to trash the engine in the future.

getawaycar

Regardless of weather you tear the engine completely down or not you will probably want send the injection pump and fuel injectors to a pump shop and have them rebuilt. I would recommend calling a heavy duity truck shop in your area (Cummins, Cat, Freightliner, kenworth, peterbilt) and ask them who the best pump shop in town is. I promise they will all know.

Before you decide the engine is trash inside and needs to be rebuilt (I try to shy away from replacing what is not broken) it may be a good Idea to perform a compression test, not sure what Oldsmobile's spec is, but all cyl should be pretty close to one another. Also check your crankcase pressure, cut open your oil filter to check for metal, and perhaps send an oil sample out for analysis. Those tests will all give you a good indication of the condition of the inside of the engine without actually taking it apart. Unless you are dead set on taking it apart. In my experience people will monkey with what is easy to access, but tend to leave the inside of the engine alone.

Chris

BlackGold

The Olds glow-plug system was extremely reliable, in my experience. I remember people harping on diesels in general, with one of their complaints being hard starting in cold weather. Nothing could be further from the truth for the Olds diesel. If you had the patience to wait for the glow plug light to go out (never more than 30 seconds, if I remember correctly), it would start with just a touch of the key -- no extended cranking -- even on below-zero days.

The diesel Rabbit, on the other hand, was a hard start on cold days.

KRICHEN922

I hear the wisdom behind the whole "if it runs ok, don't touch it." but like I said, it's been sitting for a while, the guy who owned it didn't take care of it at all, and his mechanic was an amature. It may be working fine but that engine was abused. It needs some tlc.
I also want to tear it down for learning purposes. It's not the hardest engine in the world to work on, and it's my first (and only) car.
Unless theres some horrible problem with me doing a complete rebuild, I don't see why I shouldn't. Though I do agree that I probably should run all those tests first.

Can i at least replace all the seals and gaskets without doing a complete rebuild?
I hate the dash button. Period.

olds 307 and 403

Yes you can just replace the gaskets and seals. Even finding pistons rings may be a challenge for that motor. I believe the rods bearings are the same as SBO but the mains are BBO size. I would reseal and get a fuel/ water separator and the injection pump rebuilt with a new fuel filter.

KRICHEN922

Alright, thanks guys.
Is it alright to replace the fuel filters before anything else? or should I wait? I'm not going to start the gasketing job until June, so I'm planning on replacing anything that I can without pulling the engine before then. The only other things I have replaced are the oil filter (obviously) and the thermostat.
Any tips?

Scott

Hello Black gold, I saw your comments on glowplugs and hope you can advise me on my 350DX.

Glowplugs; removal
One glowplug wouldn't light up my test lamp and when unscrewing the plug it stopped turning easily art about 3/8" out. Having read about pieces of plugs breaking off at this stage I've stopped to ask questions. Should I remove all injectors and crank the engine to bring the piston to TDC to facilitate vacuuming out pieces?
Other solutions?
Should I keep unscrewing the glowplug? I stopped at about 10 pound/feet.
thanx, Scott

getawaycar

Removing all the injectors will give you no benefit. Sometimes the plug tip will swell when the plug fails and will prevent it from being removed. If they break off in the cyl the safest course of action is to remove the cyl head to get the broken pieces out before they cause more damage. I hate to be the guy that says the engine needs to come apart but broken pieces in your cyl will absolutely damage your piston and possibly the head and cyl wall.

Try spraying it with some good penitrant and working it back and forth to free up any deposits that may cause it to bind and maybe you can get it out intact. However, if the tip is swollen and it is going to break off there is really nothing you can do to prevent it from happening. Vacuuming pieces out of a cyl with the head in place is a pipe dream. If you are unsure if the whole plug came out compare it to another one out of the engine (not the new one as the style may be slightly different) and it never hurts to make sure the engine will turn a whole revolution by hand before you start it up. Any interfearance should show up before it becomes an issue. Good luck.

Chris

Scott

Thanks Chris, the glowplug is out, no melting.
The non-starting is still the problem. The starter runs for a couple seconds and then pulls back from the flywheel. Non-load test of the starter was positive but I replaced the fouled solenoid anyhow. Glowplugs, starter relay, batteries, cables, injection pump solenoid, fuel filter, fuel pump, fuel return line test ok. Could the pressure to the injection pump be too low? At cranking speed the volume of fuel seemed adeguite.
IDEAS?

rustyroger

Sounds like your main issue is the starter, it may be the starter itself or bad grounds/connecters.
Is your battery up to the job?, don't forget diesels need a lot of cranking amps to turn 8 22:1 compression cylinders at at least 150 rpm (550 amps if my memory serves), The diesel '79 Olds Delta I owned had two batteries. I used two heavy duty V12 Jaguar batteries which gave ample cranking power.
I would remove all the glow plugs and try them with a good battery and heavy duty wire - be careful, they get very hot quickly.
If the engine cranks over fine try cracking off an injector pipe and see if fuel comes out, if it does the pump is working.
Has the engine run out of fuel?, if so it isn't a case of adding fuel and cranking it over until it fires, the system will need to be bled free of air. I did this by loosening the injector pipes at the injector end and spinning the engine over with the glow plugs out until fuel came out of the injectors and retightening them with the engine still turning.
If you do a compression check you will need a diesel compression tester, the MINIMUM pressure should be 275 lbs, enough to blow a gasoline guage apart!.

Roger.

Scott

Hllo Rusty, thanks for the reply.
Batteries are new
Injector pump puts out fuel but I'm not sure of the pressure.
Solenoid at starter is new so the contacts are new and tight
Glowplugs all test ok
fuel is up

I'm now disconnecting the block grounds of batteries and replacing nuts/washers.
Should I remove the injectors to examine them?
scott
ps Can starters that "no-load test" as OK still be no good under load?

BLACKGOLD are you still with me?
s

rustyroger

A starter can test as ok under "no load" and still be defective.
Ask any diesel mechanic, good batteries and a good starter are essential to trouble free starting, I was wrong about my supposition of cranking amps, for an Olds diesel more like 900 amps is required. I had two 550 cca batteries, my memory played me false.
You say the batteries are new, are they heavy duty ones with plenty of cca?, its a false economy to skimp on them.
Injectors and the injection pump need to go a specialist shop for testing, as mentioned before ask at the local truck shops for advice.
Injection timing is critical for good starting as well, normal symtoms for timing being off is lots of black smoke from the exhaust and no start.
Water in the fuel can play havoc with diesel injection systems, my Olds had a warning light for this.

My girlfriend is a cab driver using a Peugeot diesel car for her work, I do the servicing work on it and other cabs as well. Fuel system trouble is very rare on modern diesels, her car has covered 140000 miles with no problems other than needing a new battery at around 110000 miles, I bought the biggest one that would fit - it starts easily every day no matter what the weather.

Good luck;
Roger.

getawaycar

I have some advice for troubleshooting hard starting but don't have time to type it all out on my phone right now. I am sorry to everybody interested in the repair directions on this thread. I am going to send you a PM with my phone number and I will try to talk you through it.

Chris

Scott

Hi Roger, thanks for the response.
I couldn't pull up your PM through my ignorance. So will you send it through this email note.
My Olds shop manual tells me to pull a glowplug and look for diesel fumes when turning over the engine. Small puffs of dusty smoke but no fuel vizable. Pulled all the glowplugs with same result. Note that the starter spun the engine easily.
scott

Junkman

Seems like you are bound and determined to take that engine apart. Considering that you have no engine rebuilding experience, this is a bad idea, but it is your car. In the end, you might spend a lot of money on unnecessary parts, and spend a lot of time chasing your tail trying to figure out what went wrong, only to scrap the car in the end. I have seen this happen many times in more than 6 decades of working on cars. In fact, I was once like that.. no one could talk any sense into me, and I had all the answers. Didn't take very long before I got myself in over my head, but I was lucky. Back then, I knew someone that would bail me out and teach me the correct way. I learned my lesson early in life, that if you don't know what you are doing, better to leave it to the person that does, or go to school and learn from the people that know what they are doing.
If this were my car, then I would start by putting everything back to original, and then assess where it stands as for needing replacement parts. As an example, why replace a fuel pump, when it might be the fuel filter that is the problem. Why replace glow plugs when it might be the glow plug relay that is the problem. Here is a place that can manufacturer a replacement engine wire harness for your car. It won't be cheap, but it will be correct. It also might take a while because it is an Olds and a diesel. Ask if they will do a special order for your car... Same for the under dash harness. Either repair it back to original, or replace it. When you are taking the engine apart prior to fixing the electrical part of the car first, you are putting the cart before the horse. If you don't understand that expression, please disregard everything that I have written, and take your engine apart. Some people have to learn the hard way..