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I'm not even sure if this forum is for newer olds cars, if not I can remove, and sorry...
I have a 1987 cutlass 442, 127k miles and climbing.
(Tl;DR)
my problem is, when it sits for a few days, it just WILL NOT START without starting fluid.
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stock Qjet carb, stock motor (307).
Okay, so for more detail. If I drive my car everyday, it will fire up every
time, quickly. The car runs great, I mean its not fast, but it wasn't meant to be. I've driven this car from Cleveland to Pittsburgh probably 10 times in the last 5 months, IT RUNS GREAT! lol
Now, if it sits for two or more days, it acts like its not getting gas, not even a sputter in the motor.. if I spray a single shot of starting fluid in the carb and hit the key, boom it runs perfect. Below, I'll list things that I've done, some dealing with the starting issue, some not. But maybe one stands out to you.
I can't say when for sure this problem started, since it sat around for a few months before it would get started again. So it could have been since we got the car. I've only recently started driving it constantly.
Things that I've done.
I removed the smog pump, it had some line issues and I opted for removal instead of repair.
AC is gone, it didn't work, and I can't be in a car with AC on anyhow, so no reason to repair it.
Carb rebuilt by a professional, out of Cincinnati i believe, would have to look back to find out who, but came highly recommended for Qjets.
I did check the tabs on the bottom of the bowl of the carb with the lead caps, they have been sealed, and are not leaking.
Changed fuel pump, i heard they had a check valve that could go bad, letting fuel run back into the tank, so changed it.
Computer was changed,
timing was out, it was at 12 degrees and now its at 20, not sure how it was running at 12, but yeah.
full tune up.
So if you have any ideas, let me know..
Thanks in advance
Unfortunately, you apparently spent some time and money for nothing. This is unfortunately an all-too-common problem for infrequently-driven cars with carbs, and it is primarily due to evaporation of the fuel from the bowl. People who are mainly used to driving EFI cars with electric fuel pumps are most often the ones who find this to be a problem. The fuel pump should refill the bowl after a short time cranking, but if the check valves in the pump are worn or deteriorated from ethanol, this can take a lot longer.
Short of driving the car more frequently, about the only thing you can do is verify the mechanical pump is functioning properly or install an aux electric fuel pump to prime the carb before starting. The Qjet has a very small float bowl, and the CCC Qjet on your car has even less bowl volume due to the presence of the mixture control solenoid. Sorry, but there isn't too much you can do about it.
Since someone will suggest the leaking fuel bowl plugs on a Qjet, I'll point out that this is primarily a problem on the 1966-67 carbs with the sheet metal plugs. All Qjets made after that use thick spun-in aluminum plugs that really don't leak. If you think you have a plug leaking problem, remove the carb, fill the float bowl, and stand it up over a piece of paper overnight. If the paper isn't wet, the plugs are fine.
In old cars with a carb i pump three times before i start it. This is another reason to have a carb with float bowl sight glass you can tell if there is fuel in the bowl.
Unfortunately, you apparently spent some time and money for nothing. This is unfortunately an all-too-common problem for infrequently-driven cars with carbs, and it is primarily due to evaporation of the fuel from the bowl. People who are mainly used to driving EFI cars with electric fuel pumps are most often the ones who find this to be a problem. The fuel pump should refill the bowl after a short time cranking, but if the check valves in the pump are worn or deteriorated from ethanol, this can take a lot longer.
Short of driving the car more frequently, about the only thing you can do is verify the mechanical pump is functioning properly or install an aux electric fuel pump to prime the carb before starting. The Qjet has a very small float bowl, and the CCC Qjet on your car has even less bowl volume due to the presence of the mixture control solenoid. Sorry, but there isn't too much you can do about it.
Since someone will suggest the leaking fuel bowl plugs on a Qjet, I'll point out that this is primarily a problem on the 1966-67 carbs with the sheet metal plugs. All Qjets made after that use thick spun-in aluminum plugs that really don't leak. If you think you have a plug leaking problem, remove the carb, fill the float bowl, and stand it up over a piece of paper overnight. If the paper isn't wet, the plugs are fine.
Hey guys, thanks for replying. I already sealed the fuel bowl plugs, the fuel pump is brand new, doing the same thing as the one i figured was bad. I have an electric fuel pump I could put on, I was hoping i didn't need to go that route. I do understand after sitting for an extended period of time (week+) but I will the fuel bowl really evaporate in 2 days? and as far as cranking longer, and pumping. It doesnt seem to make a difference. what i normally do is
I get in the car, pump twice, hit the key, if its been sitting it will just turn over, not even a burp from it, at least not until i spray starting fluid, then fires right up. I'm also very comfortable with a carbed cars, had more than a few in my short time of driving!
In old cars with a carb i pump three times before i start it. This is another reason to have a carb with float bowl sight glass you can tell if there is fuel in the bowl.
I will look into the sight glass.. that could at least tell me if the bowl is retaining fuel. ty!
I would check any rubber fuel line in the system and see if it is dried out, It is easier for the fuel pump to suck air instead of gas
Wouldn't that effect how it drove once its started as well as during ignition? I'm asking cause i had to tighten one of the rubber fuel lines on the pump due to leakage.. Just now remembered doing that.
I assume the choke is set correctly and the coil hasn't lost tension.
You can easily check float level in a Qjet from the outside, even with the car running. There are gauges made that go in the vent hole and sit on top of the float. They are light enough that they don't cause the float to drop and give a false reading.
In your case, you aren't measuring absolute float height, just the change from a running engine to a pre-start after sitting for a few days. In that case, all you need is a lightweight stick like a coffee stir stick. With the engine running (or right after you shut it off), insert your gauge stick so it sits on the float and mark it at the top of the vent tube. Let the car sit for 3-4 days and drop it in again before starting. If the level has dropped dramatically, you have your cause.
I do understand after sitting for an extended period of time (week+) but I will the fuel bowl really evaporate in 2 days?
In my experience with several G-body Olds, the fuel will evaporate in about 10 hours on a hot day when the car is parked with a hot engine.
You shouldn't have to use starting fluid. You should only have to crank the starter longer. Floor the gas pedal once to set the choke, then crank for about 6 seconds. If it hasn't started, stop cranking, pump the gas pedal again to give it a shot of gas (which hopefully has arrived in the bowl by now), then crank again. If it doesn't start within a couple more seconds of cranking, then you're either sucking air (as has been suggested) or your choke needs adjusting.
awesome Joe i'm going to do that asap. thank you for the info.
@ BlackGold, I wouldn't have guessed 10 hours.
When I've cranked n cranked before hitting with fluid, i've damn near run the battery dead. I'm gonna get back under the hood this weekend. Thanks guys for the help.
Love my car, but hate not being able to jump in it lol.
When I've cranked n cranked before hitting with fluid, i've damn near run the battery dead.
Definitely check the choke for proper operation. Get the factory service manual to learn how the choke works and exactly how it should be adjusted (though don't be afraid to adjust differently, once you understand how everything works).
Definitely check the choke for proper operation. Get the factory service manual to learn how the choke works and exactly how it should be adjusted (though don't be afraid to adjust differently, once you understand how everything works).
I don't know about the VIN 9 cars, but on the VIN Y cars, there is a tab on the choke housing and a notch in the coil cover that doesn't allow any adjustment. I assume this is for emissions certification reasons, to prevent one from over adjusting the choke and making it too rich.
In addition to these great ideas, let it sit long enough to reproduce the problem, pull the air cleaner and look down the carb while actuating the throttle. You should see strong shots of gas. If not it's the carb or the fuel system or the solenoid in the carb. If you see gas then I'd start looking at the ignition sys.
Verify fuel pressure with a gauge. Verify all soft lines from the tank to the pump are in good shape. Ethanol will eat old school rubber hose. Have you looked at the filter in the carb? Is it ok, the correct part and installed properly?
Always run ethanol free in all carbureted engines. Consider a heat insulator style gasket installed under the carb. Consider blocking off the heat riser crossover in the intake. This will prevent much of the boil out problem, though it will be cold blooded and you'll need to be able to adjust the choke which may not be an option.
I like Joe's method sticking the stick down the vent. That's an old trick I completely forgot about.
Google electronic feedback quadra jet troubleshooting. They are known for this sort of problem. There's several step by step yputubes if I recall.
Last edited by droldsmorland; March 2nd, 2017 at 01:13 PM.
I don't know about the VIN 9 cars, but on the VIN Y cars, there is a tab on the choke housing and a notch in the coil cover that doesn't allow any adjustment. I assume this is for emissions certification reasons, to prevent one from over adjusting the choke and making it too rich.
I was referring more to any necessary adjustments to the vacuum breaks(two on these cars) and linkages. With the carb being rebuilt, a lot of things might have changed. The last time I let someone touch my Qjet was the last time I'll let someone touch my Qjet.....
I was referring more to any necessary adjustments to the vacuum breaks(two on these cars) and linkages. With the carb being rebuilt, a lot of things might have changed. The last time I let someone touch my Qjet was the last time I'll let someone touch my Qjet.....
Good point. These are frequently overlooked when rebuilding, but the reality is that the vacuum breaks are unlikely to be related to a cold start issue, unless they are so far off that they are holding the choke open.
Just to make sure. Does this carb have a fuel filter with a one way valve?? I had a carb rebuilt buy a local carb shop they did not put one in my '84 307.
symptom was no accelerator pump fuel in the morning. After new filter/check valve all OK.
Okay sorry it took me so long to reply, but the problem is fixed. the carb was in fact bone dry after sitting for 2 days.... as FStanley stated my fuel filter did not have a check valve.
I also noticed the gasket for the bottom half of the carb was just in shambles.. never seen one look the way it did. So since I had a carb rebuild kit, i went ahead n did that. Car fires up great now, let it set for 2 days, and hit the key, starts right up. But at least now I know, and now everything involving fuel delivery is new LOL! I really love this car, and it was killing me that we couldn't figure it out..!!!
Thank you all so much for your help, much appreciated!
oh on a side note, I did adjust the choke a touch, found out it was staying on, and not letting the 4 barrels open. But yeah all fixed n running like a top now.
Hell I yank out the rubber stopper in the fuel filter. Was choking off fuel. I was nosing over on 2-3 upshifts. My set up is somewhat on the edge for a stock system so I need all the flow help I can cheat on.
One of the most critical adjustments on a Qjet is the AVS spring. This spring gets lazy over time allowing a rich secondary tip in which makes the Qjet famous for the bog....or quadra bog. Super-tuning is what all of this is called. Dialing-in all the crucial little adjustments in the ign, fuel, chassis systems, et al. Many tenths can be shaved with careful tuning.
March 1st, 2017 | 10:22 AM
