timing chain alingment question

Old July 27th, 2014, 10:38 AM
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timing chain alingment question

OK so I bought this timing set from rrp and its a real nice set. I aligned the timing marks like a chevy which would put #6 @ tdc and that was correct. I then spun the engine to put the # 1 @ tdc and I can quite get it to line up its off by just a little bit. I went both ways on a tooth to rule that out. and @ tdc I am on the base circle of the cam . What do you guys think will I be fine ? Im being really really observant as I assembly this engine together I cant afford another thing going wrong. Any help is appreciated.


Here it is with the timing marks butted up .



Here they are @ tdc


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Old July 27th, 2014, 11:07 AM
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I see no problem. one tooth either way would be much worse.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 11:08 AM
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It's possible that your tdc mark is out. Maybe the harmonic balancer is a bit out of whack, or the timing mark was slightly off when the engine left the factory. Or the marks on your new timing set are wrong.


It could be worth your while to accurately determine tdc on your engine and go from there.


Roger.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 11:38 AM
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Tdc on the engine has been determined and I had this engine together already once. The odd part is when you line the up like a chevy you are right at tdc for the #6piston but you turn it to get tdc on the #1 and its slightly off. I'm going to assume since where the cam sprcoket is and it still being on the base cricle of the cam I should be ok but I don't know if that would affect the cam timing of the rest of the firing cylinders. It isn't much but again I'm being super observant and anything that could possibly be off I'm questioning. Usually I would install the chain like a chevy assemble it all then put it at tdc and fire it up.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 12:42 PM
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hey copper save yourself cost and possible future grief and get a cloyes adjustable. I have a double chain and zero problems period the cost is minimal compared to the destruction possibility.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 12:44 PM
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This actually comparable to cloyes its made here in Chicago . Rocket racing uses this chain and the double adjustable chain on all their builds. Its a nice piece. It is a roller the links are just huge.

Last edited by coppercutlass; July 27th, 2014 at 05:08 PM.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 12:47 PM
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good luck racing is a blast, and advancement here would bump cylinder pressure but take off some rpm. trade off of torque for upper rpm horsepower,your call.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 12:50 PM
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Is that timing set adjustable? To me it looks like it's off a degree or two. You need to put a timing wheel on it and find out exactly where you are at unless that's not important with this build.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 12:50 PM
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to bad the late September early October day fell through it really helps with new builds. I always for less cost dynoed right before track days.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 01:04 PM
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Tripduces Im not overly worried if its a degree or two off. I guess I should put a degree wheel on it and see where things are at. It is adjustable at the crank it has 2 other marks I can install it on. That also what I was thinking it was a degree or two possibly but now that im being overly cautious I might as well check stuff out. I mean if its 2 degrees advanced that's not bad even if it was 2 degrees retarded it wouldn't be too bad. I don't have a degree wheel so I think im going to have buy one or borrow one.




JFB I don't have a clue wtf you are saying lol but my junk will be out late this month for some shake down passes hopefully dialed in for the Byron bop wars.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 01:05 PM
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it looks off a bit, what key way did you use
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Old July 27th, 2014, 01:07 PM
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I used the key way with no lettering which is usually the "straight up " marl then there was 2 other keyways with letters probably designating how many degrees of advancing it has. That's what I assume anyway. There was no paper in this timing set I have to call rocket racing and ask them exactly which key way is straight up.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 01:14 PM
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I was stating that a open day for racing helps normally I get in 2 to 3 passes on average days. I have always run with a bunch and found that new combos need sort out time.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by coppercutlass View Post
I used the key way with no lettering which is usually the "straight up " marl then there was 2 other keyways with letters probably designating how many degrees of advancing it has. That's what I assume anyway. There was no paper in this timing set I have to call rocket racing and ask them exactly which key way is straight up.
yes call them and see what they say...you know the game and a trip says a degree wheel is the way to go and since the engine is out now is the time to know
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Old July 27th, 2014, 01:20 PM
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The thing is I installed the heads already I can get a dial indicator in throught the spark plug hole to find true tdc. Will this pose an issue ?
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Old July 27th, 2014, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by coppercutlass View Post
The thing is I installed the heads already I can get a dial indicator in throught the spark plug hole to find true tdc. Will this pose an issue ?

Why did you not degree the cam when the heads were off? The best way to do it, IMO, is with only the #1 piston installed, more accurate and easier to rotate. Degreeing the cam is a necessary step, IMO, there are too many variables in the cam, gears, crank, etc. It only takes a half hour and will eliminate problems down the road.

That said, yes, you can do it with the heads on, it is just a bit more difficult.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 03:11 PM
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I did a half assed way to find tdc. But I went to my buddies place and borrowed a dial indicator with a long reach tip. I found where true tdc was I installed my blancer with the tab on and im right on the money. I think my nerves are getting the best of me. Captjim I don't have a degree wheel I did want to degree in the cam to see where things where but Its one risk im willing to take in order to put some runs in this year.




here is what I have now I think im good. timing mark is right on zero @ true tdc and the top dot is in line with the rib.





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Old July 27th, 2014, 03:14 PM
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To me it doesn't look like the cam gear has the timing mark pointed straight up, and this is corroborated by the fuel eccentric looking like it isn't pointed straight down.

Again, this is just how it looks to me, on your picture.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 03:16 PM
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Seff its hard to get a square picture with my phone but I checked it and its very close to the point im not worried about it nearly as much as before. I don't know if you caught the second set of pictures but it looks much better. I spent about an hour trying to dial in where things where at to make sure I was as close as possible. I know I should degree the cam but I don't have a degree wheel and im not 100 percent sure I know exactly how to do it although it is somewhat simple. I will be buying a degree wheel for future use. I know I know no excuse to not degree it in .

Last edited by coppercutlass; July 27th, 2014 at 03:19 PM.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 03:18 PM
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I see that you got a lot closer in the second set of pictures (posted at the same time as my post), and drawing a line through it shows that you're still slightly off - in the right direction for it to be straight and true, luckily. I too think you're in the clear.

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Old July 27th, 2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by coppercutlass View Post
I did a half assed way to find tdc. But I went to my buddies place and borrowed a dial indicator with a long reach tip. I found where true tdc was I installed my blancer with the tab on and im right on the money. I think my nerves are getting the best of me. Captjim I don't have a degree wheel I did want to degree in the cam to see where things where but Its one risk im willing to take in order to put some runs in this year.
Not trying to be a smart-azz, but this is why you keep having issues. Take your time and do it right. Here is a degree wheel for $21,
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g1057/overview/
Do things half-assed (your words, not mine) and you will have problems.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 03:28 PM
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by half assed I mean I went in through the sprak plug hole since I did not want to take the cylinder heads off to find true tdc. I had issues before due to crap parts and me not knowing better not because I cut corners. I didn't degree any cams prior but I did not have any issues. At this point I think im good . I have been taking my sweet time building this engine the 2nd time around constantly double checking my work. Anytime something has gone wrong for me it has come down to parts. The first time it was just using old *** parts this last time was an off centers cam and me thinking the drag the cam had was due to no oil I later found out it should spin free with no oil. Im not saying im great jim but I do pay attention to what Im doing.

Last edited by coppercutlass; July 27th, 2014 at 03:31 PM.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by coppercutlass View Post
......... I had issues before due to crap parts........At this point I think im good.......... Anytime something has gone wrong for me it has come down to parts.
Interesting perspective, carry on.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 04:32 PM
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By I think im good at this point I meant now that im a true tdc and I checked everything out I could I should be good based on what my refrence guides say. Now I don't need your snide comments if you have nothing to really contribute in the way to help me please move on jim. You just grab any opportunity to try to give me grief and its sad you have nothing better to do .

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Old July 27th, 2014, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by coppercutlass View Post
By I think im good at this point I meant now that im a true tdc and I checked everything out I could I should be good based on what my refrence guides say. Now I don't need your snide comments if you have nothing to really contribute in the way to help me please move on jim. You just grab any opportunity to try to give me grief and its sad you have nothing better to do .
It still does not mean that the cam is installed where you want it to be, that is why you degree it. There is much more to it that aligning the dots or finding TDC. You want the valves to open and close at the correct points.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 04:51 PM
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well aware jim I know why people degree cams but im a risk taker. I have installed 3 cams and never needed to degree one in or had issue where I questioned the valve opening and closings. So I made that choice taking that into consideration. Next time I will degree it in and I have an egine I have been working on for sometime with some nice parts that will be the "down to the tee build ".
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Old July 27th, 2014, 05:01 PM
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It's a non adjustable timing gear. How is he going to change it other than the +/- 4 degree keyways? No worries Copper, it's fine.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 05:08 PM
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Thanks Eric but it is adjustable on the crank. The amount of degrees I don't know. It has a key way for advanced marked A and retarded marked R just don't know how much on each end.


I might add I can see where people thing this is a cheap regular on adjustable timing chain but its a heavy duty double roller. I have a cloyes double roller street strip duty chain in the basement and the chain pictures looks like its on steroids compared to the cloyes the links are wayyy bigger but it was only 70 bucks .

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Old July 27th, 2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by coppercutlass View Post
well aware jim I know why people degree cams but im a risk taker. I have installed 3 cams and never needed to degree one in or had issue where I questioned the valve opening and closings. So I made that choice taking that into consideration. Next time I will degree it in and I have an egine I have been working on for sometime with some nice parts that will be the "down to the tee build ".
OK, that is fair, just make sure you let the other guys you give advice to that you are a "risk taker" vs doing things the best way. Sure, the engine will run, but will it run to it's potential? We aren't talking about the valves actually hitting something (except in serious high HP builds), what we are talking about is maximizing performance based on the cam specs, engine compression, etc. The same cam in an engine with a 3.23 gear and 9.5 to 1 might be best at a 102 i/c where the same engine with 10.25 and a 3.91 gear might be better a bit later. I put a generic 204/214 cam in a 350 once, degreed it and it was retarded 8 degree. Imagine how that engine would have run, that is already a lazy cam. My point is, it is relatively inexpensive, takes 30 minutes, and can make a big difference in the performance of the car. IMHO.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by oldcutlass View Post
No worries Copper, it's fine.
How do you know that until it is checked. Why is everyone on this site so dead set against doing things correctly? I just don't get it.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 05:23 PM
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How many cams did detroit degree from the factory?
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Old July 27th, 2014, 05:23 PM
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Jim I wasn't giving anyone advice I came here to get some feed back. Im pretty sure lots of guys have installed a cam and didn't degree it. Is it correct Not by certain standards but I don't think I will have issues. I don't claim to be an engine builder nor to do things by the book but I have made some junk boogie down the track and putting down respectable times.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by coppercutlass View Post
... but I don't think I will have issues.
Isn't it better to be sure when it is so inexpensive and takes so little time? Rhetorical question, I'll leave it alone now.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pogo69 View Post
How many cams did detroit degree from the factory?

Don't know. How many of them used aftermarket gears and cams? I have seen really high-dollar cams and gear sets be off quite a bit, and I'm sure any engine builder would I agree. I would be astounded if Mark or Smitty would even think about assembling and engine without checking it.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 05:38 PM
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Ther difference between an engine builder and myself is I build my own stuff they build it for someone else so they have to do it by the book to cover their tracks. Im just building stuff for my self in my garage if something goes wrong that just means I gotta fix it. Just like my head gasket and cam failure I built it so I fixed it if I had an engine builder do it I would have told em you take care of it I used your parts that you wanted so take care of it.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 05:44 PM
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Someone do me a favor and close this thread down. Im sure the next thing that we will be told is that we are taking a **** the wrong way. If anyone has anything else to contribute pm me. Geez a simple questing turns into $hit butter sandwhich.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 06:03 PM
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Do yourself a favor and put the troll on your ignore list.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 06:09 PM
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there is still ways around it so its pointless.
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Old July 28th, 2014, 07:57 AM
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I read through this until it got bitchy.

So, here's my take on it. Unless it says Cloyes on it don't trust it. Even at that the chain might be perfect it doesn't mean the cam is ground in relation to the locating pin like it should be. I don't care who ground it there can be variance from cam to cam. Just a fact of life. I know one major cam grinder that I have to retard every cam 6-8 degrees just to get them at 4 advanced. I've even proven it to them but they are not about to change their tooling. Anyhow. Buy a degree wheel and do it right. Hell, even borrow a degree wheel if you have to. If you lived close I'd come help. But if you don't degree it your loosing out on performance potential. It might run great in your mind with just lining up the dots. But how much better it will run if its currently off and you take the steps to get it right. So you invest another day in it. Do it right. Or when the gremlins step in you'll always wonder where the problem is and if you took just one more day to correct this would you still be having issues.
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Old July 28th, 2014, 08:00 AM
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Just to reinforce the jist of all that.

DEGREE THE CAM IN !!!!!!!
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