coppercutlass

thanks smitty. Its been bugging me to the point where I'm going to have to probably degree it in. I put a lot of work into it to not do it. Question here being my heads are torqued down I'm running the flepro permatq. Will I have to get new ones or can I re used them ? If not then that will go on the list of things to order tonight. I want to break this cam in this weekend.

Smitty275

There is nothing wrong with going in through the spark plug hole with a proper piston stop to find TDC. I wouldn't pull the heads off. But if you do pull them off I would trash the gaskets.

coppercutlass

I'll go in from the spark plug hole them . I hope you don't mind but can you explain the procedure. I know the basics of degreeing the cam but a walk through would be helpful.

captjim

http://www.cranecams.com/bulletins_listview.php?s_id=5

coppercutlass

Ok now what diameter wheel should I get ? I found in the mondello book how to do it so I got the directions on paper next to me while I do that.

captjim

The larger the wheel, the more precise the measurements will be. Obviously, the larger and nicer the wheel, the more it costs.

coppercutlass

I found a nice priced comp cam degree 9 in. wheel but my issue is also the bolt hole diameter.

67 Cutlass Freak

Copper I agree with the others that you should degree in the cam. Just so you know if it was ground accurately. You also will find out if your chain and timing marks are accurate. I paid Dane to degree in my cam. He could help us, or let me use his degree wheel. The other thing to consider is where you want to install the cam. Do you want straight up, advanced, or retarded? Different primary usage dictates different installation. Did Lunati give any recommendations, or John? You should post up the cam specs along with your combo and get some suggestions from those with experience. I worked on the running stand a little. Get a hold of me when you want to come up.

cutlassefi

I hate to burst your bubble, but a timing set with just three keyways ain't the cats meow. As Smitty said in another post, use the Cloyes 9 keyway that he mentioned and I've been using for years. The Rocket Racing set you described is pretty ordinary.
And yes spend the time and degree it. You'll be glad you did.

coppercutlass

mark Im not saying the timing set is the cats meow just nice a set the link are huge compare to other sets just a nice set over all Not saying its the best just better that what ever I though was good before and for the money its not bad . I know having multiple key ways there is more adjustability is great. 67cutlassfreak im going to do this because I want this thing together by this weekend. Im going to install it straight up since the power band is right where I need it I know changing the cam timing will effect the power band and I don't want to change that.


I just ordered my degree wheel and intake gaskets so hopefully Friday night I can do this.


Now should I do 4 corners or all 8 cylinders to check for all the intake and exhaust closings and openings.

coppercutlass

Ok so I spent the last 4 hours studying how to degree a cam. Now since everyone told me to . I expect you to all help me lol. Here goes .


Ok so according to my cam card. Ex. opens @ 54.5 degrees. bbdc So when I hit 54.5 on the degree wheel on bbdc side I should see the valve open on the dial indicator this will confirm normal cam operation as per cam spec cards . The same obviously will be done for all cam movements. Once I confirm all cam movements like in. opening closing etc etc are correct and no degreeing will be needed for corrections I can proceed to check valve lift which in its self is a bit self explanatory on the mondello book. Now My lobe sep. is 110 and the centerline is 106 so im already sitting on 4 degrees advanced so installing straight up is probably what I should be doing. Im sure I will have more questions as I dig into it more but for now I want to make sure Im understanding all this .

Smitty275

Sounds like you have a decent handle on it. Once you get it set up it'll make even more sense and you'll get the hang of it. Since you've gone to the trouble of doing it right you'll probably have the one cam and timing chain set that comes out dead on by getting the dots close. LOL

Smitty275

I usually do #1 and then recheck on #6.
Read you cam card closely. Advertised duration and events will be at a very small amount of lift. Say .004 or .006 of lift. They do it that way so your not guessing where it actually starts to move and you have a solid reading. OR you card may only give the events at .050" of lift. So make sure you know how they have it listed or you'll be as confused as a squirrel with too many nuts to choose from.

Smitty275

Another method is to not worry about the open/close events until you get the intake lobe centerline correct. To do this you set up tdc as usual. Then put indicator on lifter and rotate to find highest point on the lobe. Back up and drop the lifter and then bring back to .050 from peak lift, write that number down, go past peak and back down the .050 and write the number under the first. Add them together and divide by two. That will give the centerline of the lobe. Once you have that right then check open and close points.

Disclaimer: Some cams with non- symmetrical lobes cannot be degreed in with the lobe center method.

coppercutlass

With my luck smitty it can go both ways be dead on or turn into a poop storm. I built my trans and had someone go over it and I messed up the simplest thing . The freaking valvebody gasket but in my defense b&m does a horrible job of describing the gaskets lol. Anyway the more I look into it the more the whole cam design makes sense and I'm understanding more about it. I'm looking forward to doing this actually .

coppercutlass

Ok so my cam card covers intake and opening events in degrees I belive and it say's timing figures obtained @ .050. Now you confused me smitty lol. Its a lunati cam if that helps.

coppercutlass

Ok so I neglected to get a piston stop I know I can make one but my question is. To properly set the piston stop do I put the piston tdc at that point where it rocks then drive in the stop until it hits the piston ., lower it drive in the stop a little bit then repeat until it does not turn over ? I want to make sure I do this right the first time .

TripDeuces

Put the piston at BDC. You put the stop in and turn the engine over until the number one piston contacts the stop. Record that number from the degree wheel. Rotate the engine the opposite direction and once again contact the stop. Record that number. TDC is half way between those two numbers.

Remove the stop and rotate the engine until you get to the halfway point from the two recorded numbers. Now loosen the degree wheel and rotate it until TDC is under the pointer.

coppercutlass

Thanks trip duces but I was just curious about properly setting up the piston stop its self. I assume if you go too much you will get an improper reaading.

RandyS

The stop needs to be in far enough to keep the piston from reaching TDC, doesn't matter how far as long as it prevents reaching TDC. You rotate the motor by hand in each direction to the stop. Use info obtained to determine TDC.

coppercutlass

Cool that's all I needed to know .

coppercutlass

Ok so I got my degree wheel and made a piston stop from an old AN- fitting just for now. I kinda played around and eyeballed finding tdc and did the math and I now understand how that all goes. I had to make a bushing for the degree wheel since its designed to be used with a crank socket so while I was at my friends picking up a good dial indicator we made one on the lathe and used some washers to make sure it was nice and snug. Tommorow it's degreeing time. Tommorow during lunch at work I plan on modifying an old lifter to take readings from and im also going to go ahead and make a nice piston stop from an old spark plug and air cleaner stud. I will let you all know what I get .

Smitty275

Make it easier on yourself and use a pushrod between your indicator and the lifter. Gets it up to where you can get a straighter shot on it for a truer reading. Plus you can see the indicator easier.

IMG_20140712_195559_325_zpsccze6fpp.jpg

coppercutlass

Ok so during lunch today I made a nice piston stop from an old spark plug and an air cleaner stud . I welded a nut on the inside then I slotted the stud so I can turn it with a screw driver I then used a nut on the front of it its a 3/8 so it will go righ through the spark plug hole. I also did you said smitty but I did it with some threaded rod cut to 8.5 in welded to an old lifter. Im not feeling too good today woke up sick as a dog and still went to work and I just don't have it in me to work on it today. I might later but the couch just feels so much better lol.

Octania

where's your wire pointer to read degrees?

how are you turning the crank?

coppercutlass

Well in the pics I posted I was just going from bolt holes to get a general idea if I was doing it right nothing serious just messing around . I have some coat hangers here I cut up and im turning the crank with a breaker bar . I might go out and mess with it after dinner.

TripDeuces

Great ideas Copper. You'll have it timed in no time.

coppercutlass

Ok so I checked one intake lobe . Ok so here is what I got. My intake centerline is 105


Lift starts @ 12 degrees and closes @ 44 degrees . Duration is 237 @ .050 Lift is 558 @ 1.6 .




NOW here IS WHERE I THINK IM GOING TO GET MAD !. The cam card states 522 lift but If I multiply 348 x 1.6 I get 556 348 x 1.5 is 522 which is the lift that's on the card . We all know our olds have 1.6 and it even say's ! on the cam card 1.6 rocker ratio.


@ this point im going to stop until someone can clarify this for me . But I think this aint right

TripDeuces

Putting the lift numbers aside did everything else come out ok? I see these type mistakes a lot so I wouldn't be too surprised. You just did the actual numbers so 'timing' the engine has worked out for the good. There's the simple answer for why we time engines.

coppercutlass

Yes the timing was dead on pretty much the timing chain seemed 1 degree advanced . Centerline based on the cam card was 106 I got 105. But it might be 1.5 degrees off because my in. Opened at 12 vs. 10.5 and closed at 44 vs. 42.5 so that gives me 3 degrees more of duration but the lift I got was wayyyy more than what I can run @ 1.6 ration so where does that leave me now

Smitty275

If its a hydraulic cam you just need to verify your springs can handle the extra lift. If its a solid then put in the lash and run it again. There will be a good bit less lift.

coppercutlass

The springs are set up for 540 lift.

coppercutlass

Ok so I took the cam out and checked from the base circle and all that and I got a really close figure to the cam card but when in the block the numbers aren't right wtf am I doing wrong. I check at .050 lift and .050 under max lift just to see if I was doing something wrong and I don't get it. What do you guys do . Now I did some more reading after posting this and it said to check max lift and multiply this. Go figure the easiest thing to do I screw up.

Smitty275

Are you trying to degree the cam off the valve retainer? If so that is where you may be off. Need to go straight off the lifter. You also need to have your indicator as absolutely perfectly in line with the travel of the lifter to get an accurate result. If the indicator is on an angle in comparison to the lifter (or valve for that matter if your going that way) you will get increased readings.

If your going off the valve measuring the lift then you have rockers giving you more lift than they are supposed to. I have seen the CC kit referenced to be 1.6. But there is another company out there that has an identical looking kit that advertises at 1.65. Who knows which is right. But you may have just stumbled onto something you were not looking for.

coppercutlass

I checked at the lifter and go the same thing. My pushrod is a bit angled but I get the same thing straight off the lifter the number are the same. I measure the base circle and did that how lunati says on its web site and the lift is right. I checeked it at max lift everywhere and I can't get any numbers near what I should have.

coppercutlass

Now I'm frustrated as all $hit . I checked again at the lifter and with the rod multiple time and at the lifter I get 1 less degree than at the pushrod so the one degree isn't much . I want to clarify I am checking at .050 lift on the lobe as its opening with both just a lifter and a lifter and a rod welded to it.

coppercutlass

Ok so I started from scratch again. I stopped at the centerline. You will see why. I got 91 degrees on the centerline with 2 timing chains that's right 2 totally diffrent sets. I installed the new timing set back on Retarded and got 101 . SOOOOOOOO in reality I don't think I can properly proceed with anything else until my centerline is correct. I'm really trying to keep my cool but WTF I did it over andover and over like the cam card said and there was very little varience. I'm starting to question my self more as I don't want to blame the mfg. But I'm seriously about to say F it all I'm done !. I get my readings for the centerline @ .050 under max lift and after max lift ad them and that's what I get. For some reason when I try to do something right this is just my luck. I'm going to install the repaired howards cam and see what I get if its close I'm running it. I will be happy to call anyone willing to help so pm your number I don't like bugging people which is why I Come here .

coppercutlass

OK so it wasn't me it was a combo a cam and timing chain. So here goes. I installed the howards cam retarded. Straight up it was 97 degrees retarded it was 107.5 so that's good. The duration checked out The lift im still a bit unclear how that works but when I measured at the base circle with the cam off the engine it was good so im just going to go off the fact that lift will not decrease in the block unless the rocker arm ratio was changed but im going off the cam for lif . I can now do all the steps with out even refrencing lol. I have spent no joke probably a solid 10 hours trying to figure this out . im going to try to degree the lunati cam one more time If that does not pan out then I will run the howards and lunati well I don't know wtf to do if that does not work. At this point all my numbers on the howards where all really close to the cam card so I know that cam is good.

Octania

You read thru the instructions and maybe watched a youtube video, right?

A couple things I would add
1) the angle of the lifter to pushrod or welded rod or whatnot to your dial indicator does not matter much unless your angle exceeds oh 5 degrees, which would be pretty obvious. Mathematically, the cosine of the angle [the accuracy] is 99% or more of 1.00 at angles up to 8 degrees. Furthermore, technically, assuming that the link [pushrod, curlicue form, or whatever] between lifter and tip of dial indicator is perfectly rigid, that shape and angle and offset or location does not matter at all- the indicator could be a foot off to the side and the reading would be the same. What DOES matter is that the angle of the plunger of the dial indicator is parallel to the axis of the lifter, within a few degrees as set forth above. Remember that for most of our Olds engines, the lifter bore IS NOT parallel to the cylinder bore, but at 42.5 degrees off vertical.... not 45.

2) In my experience you should turn the crank ONLY in the normal clockwise direction, when taking readings. Oh sure you can turn it backwards a little ways in order to re-do a suspect reading in the fwd direction, but.... if you use the crank nut/ bolt to turn the engine, especially in reverse, you run the risk of altering the degree wheel position, and there goes your TDC and all subsequent info is BS.

So, re-verify TDC after you degreeing. Make sure it is still correct.
And, if possible, turn the engine by means of the flexplate or rear of crank bolts. I often use a pry bar from engine stand to flexplate teeth when approaching crucial cam timing events, in order to proceed slowly and not shoot past the event.

Also, you often have to assist the lifter on the down ramp, to be sure it is not lagging but instead is following the cam lobe exactly. The lifter weight and dial spring may not be enough.

coppercutlass

Octania I did al that. I double triple and quadruple checked and all my readings where consistent. Very close to the cam specs on the card. I was a machinist and know the dials position is crucial along with the rigidity. .I'm going to try to get some better readings from the lunati cam but I think I'm stuck running the howards which is almost dead nuts to the cam card. Since I'm on a time crunch.