cutlassefi

That cam was ground using a SBC lobe/journal size. An Olds is bigger so what happens is the lobe actually grows from it's original design. 3 degrees is a little excessive, normally it's about 1-2 but it's not unheard of.
As far as lift goes, 0 your dial indicator at the base of the cam then rotate thru a whole rotation. See what you get.
Tip- take the @.050 duration, divide by two, then subtract the desired centerline you want. You'll end up with the number you want to see on the degree wheel @.050 lift.
Example 236@.050/2=118. If 106 is your desired centerline then you'll want to see 12 on your degree wheel, 118-106=12.
Hope this helps.

coppercutlass

The lunati specs where wrong. I don't think I did those right . I went back and re did them and the centerlines where totally diffrent.

cutlassefi

So what did you come up with?

coppercutlass

On the centerline I got. 91 degrees with the chain straight up and 101 with it retarded. With the howards I got 97 degrees with the cain straight up and 107 with the chain retarded. I didn't even bother after that because that centerline was no good for me.

coppercutlass

Now do I check lift @ .050 as it rises or right under max lift. These figures I get don't make sense to me .

coppercutlass

THAT IT ! I give up. Improperly ground cam and a junk chain . I dont think i can properly ge the numbers i want. I have thrown wayyyyyyy ore time that i should atthis. Im seriously saying F**k it and putting in the howards cam and anohe timing set i had lying around with low miles. I seriously pissed beyong belief . I buy good parts to solve issue just to find out they suck . I seriusly want to do this but i want to see what you guys do what works for you. I tried every freaking way and i almost want to be wrong but based on the numbers i have gotten i think is the parts. I always re confirm my tdc and indicator marks and they come up good.

coppercutlass

OK I seriously need a little input here. I would like to know how you guys degree the cam your process.I need one to follow . I literally have 3 diffrent methods to get the centerline. I'm going back to scratch. I'm going to get a checking spring and take a ready from the valve retainer. I think my welded rod is throwing off my reading. I played with some numbers and I think that might be my issue. And if that does not work I'm ordering some degree bushing and having the cam gear drilled out. I want it right . Now that I know the process. But its seriously frustrating I killed probably 15 hours messing with this installing the two diffrent cams numberous times and changing the chains numberous time etc etc. So in short I want what you guys do in a list more or less. I tried every possible way to check things and I just want the crap to be close. I came this far I now have to finish it.

captjim

It really is a LOT easier with one piston installed and no heads, butr see if this helps.

cutlassefi

Simple, find true tdc.
Then attach your dial indicator to the shoulder of the lifter. Rotate the crank until the lifter goes up .050. Look at the degree wheel, it should be at 12 or whatever the calculation is that I mentioned before. If its not then move the crank sprocket accordingly. Hopefully you're using the Cloyes timing set Smitty and I always use.
The cam will most likely be a little larger due to the difference in lobe profiles described earlier.
Remember don't shoot the messenger. Take a deep breath and try it again.

coppercutlass

Im not using the cloyes. Im using a pro gear unit. I tried like 100 times lol no joke. here is how I was doing it. Also Jim I used that video for reference.


Ok so I would establish tdc. then I would record the number @ .050 lift on its way up. Then I would go to max lift zero my dial and go back .050 and record that number then go .050 past max lift and record that number . Then I would record the valve closing @ .050 before the valve closed. Does that sound right ?


Im not going to buy another timing chain at this point I would go bushings .

captjim

When you go backwards, are you going past and then coming back to it to take the slack out of the chain? Are you getting the readings to repeat?

coppercutlass

yes my readings are pretty consistent to the point I can predict when max lift will happen on the dial. I usually go back past .020 the forward to .050. Just so im clear establishing my centerline is obviously the first thing I want to do to make sure my cam timing is correct. I kept getting readings in the 90's 92-94 then I advanced the cam and ended up with the same reading ? Im going to try again tomorrow and have a better plan of attack. I need a list to follow and a list to write down stuff . What gets me is my readings where consistent and since this is my first time I don't know if I blame my self or parts or probably a combination of both.


Also will the bushing kit for an sbc work for the timing set on an olds.

captjim

That isn't right. It is sometimes easy to read the wheel "backwards" if you aren't careful.

coppercutlass

Yeah I found that out lol but seriously I had numerous readings in that range carefully reading the wheel. Im making a serious effort to do this right but its like im trying to climb a greased up telephone pole.

RandyS

I think you are making this way too difficult. Find TDC (which you already have) and zero your pointer to the wheel. Using the Dial Indicator on the lifter, get your number at .050 lift on the front side of the lobe, don't reset anything, keep slowly rotating crank and get your number at 050 on the back side of the lobe. Do the math, (add both numbers together and divide by 2) that is your lobe centerline. Match that to the number your cam calls for. You should be very close at that point. If you are not using a timing set that has multiple notches on the crank gear, then it is what it is. You should be able to repeat that and get the same results time after time.

captjim

Maybe it is time to walk away and take a break. It really isn't that difficult, but like anything you do, the first time can be confusing (insert bad joke here).

coppercutlass

Jim I walked away every night lol and sometimes the first time is more awkward than confusing lol . I been trying since Friday. Randy I tried a few different ways to achieve my centerline. This might seem like a dumb question but do you record the initial .050 reading meaning the first time you hit .050 record that then as soon as you hit .050 on the back side record that . If that's the case I didn't try that. But the mondello book leaves a few things out the video jim posted makes you zero things out the lunati cam card is similar to your method I think and the howards cam card tell you to do it @ .100 Ughh. But im done using the book and im done looking on youtube. Like I said I want to know how you guys do your process. thanks Randy I will try that tomorrow. Im going to go off of the valve retainer with a solid lifter so that would mean I would have to do .050 x 1.6 so I would have to check @ .08 vs .050 . I think there might be an issue with using a lifter type deal with the head on since its on a slight angle not much but at this point I have to try something else.

RandyS

Dude, you are really overthinking this. Use the lifter, not the retainer, less chance for error. Yes, take the first reading going up the intake lobe, stop at +.050. Record that number. Then keep going over the top and stop when you reach +.050 again. Record that number. Add those numbers together, divide that result by 2, and that is your cam intake centerline.

Example - going up the lobe, .050 reads 75 on wheel, keep going over the top and come to .050 again, reads 125 on wheel. 75 + 125 = 200. Dived by 2 = 100 = intake centerline.

(note - if you go past the .050 mark and have to back up, be sure to back up several degrees before going forward again to take any play out of the chain)

coppercutlass

Yep its the chain. I can't get enough degrees from it. The highest I got was 94 lowest was 90 and 92 so there is no way its me just a crappy chain. The other chain I have though was the same deal. I mean what are the odds. That was the way randy s said to do it and I did it off the lifter. Man this is getting old. Atleast I know I'm doing it right thanks guys I'm going to see wtf I can do I'm calling rrp on Monday.

coppercutlass

Btw I was overthinking because I'm really trying to do this perfect so I was questioning my self making sure I understood the whole process.

captjim

Not trying to confuse you, but something is wrong. Your IC is 106 and you are getting 92, I seriously doubt that the chain is that far off. Can you get someone to video it while you do it?

coppercutlass

I understand jim. I have had many readings in the 90's for icl on 2 cams the lunati and howards both the same icl 106 . I was reading through the bill trovato book and he happens to mention that the location for the dowel pin is known the be in the wrong location for the pro gear timing sets. Now the other thing is I also had another timing chain with similar readings but it went as low as 89! It was a no name chain I took of a relatively fresh engine I got years ago.


EDIT : I also went off of the valve retainer with a solid lifter and there was only a slight difference in reading but nothing way off.

captjim

What are the 2 readings that you are using? Are you POSITIVE that you aren't reading the wheel wrong? It is VERY easy to do. It might stop at a number, but you have to look at the direction from zero and which way the sequence of the numbers is.

coppercutlass

Jim I constantly go back and check when I plug the numbers on my calculator. I double triple check because I noticed early on I was making that mistake. I don't know what you mean by readings but I tried all 3 locations on both timing sets on the crank on both cams. I look at where the number is from tdc or depending on what im doing I know to read the low number .

captjim

OK, let's start over. What are the timing events on the cam card? Intake open and close, EX open and close. Then, what are the 2 readings that you get?

captjim

Here is a pic of your wheel,
http://www.tavia.com/free_degree_wheel.html

Say the pointer is between the 20 and 30 as you rotate clockwise. It is easy to look at that as "35" not "25" because we think in terms os sequence from left to right. Confused? LOL

coppercutlass

Yeah jim I know the mistake lol I made it a lot so im careful about my readings. But I tossed all my old papers where I was writing stuff down because I wasn't sure it was correct so my focus was to establish centerline and go from there. But all of my event readings where off . So I haven't gotten to that point again.

coppercutlass

Im going to start fresh tomorrow evening Im going to install the sprockets straight up and record all the events and lift and duration and all that stuff. I did it the way you said too jim I tried every method I could look up . randy made it seem like as soon as I hit .050 which would be the opening even record it and then add that to the number @ .050 after max lift and divide.

captjim

Another n nice link,
http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Cams...egreeACam.aspx

coppercutlass

Thanks for the link. I really think I have been doing it right. I mean I measure at the lifter , the valve spring retainer , and the lifter with the rod I welded on and they where all close to each other . Im going to try this one more time post up my numbers I will take pictures of where I measured and you guys let me know. I mean I really hope its on me becasuse I don't feel like buying another timing chain but chances are im gonna be stuck doing something like drilling and bushing the cam sprocket but even then if my 94 icl was correct I will only be able to achive 102 icl . which I don't trap near the 6k rpm range so cutting the top end a little short might work .

coppercutlass

Its embarrassing to admit but im not lying I put about a solid 15hrs trying to figure this out making sure I was doing it right and constantly checking my work and going back and I got nothing to show for it.

dc2x4drvr

x2

coppercutlass

Oh I degreed it alright for about 15 times what the job should have taken lol and I achived nothing lol

captjim

No need to be embarrassed, better to take your time and get it right. IMO, there is no way the timing set is that far off, something else is wrong.

rubeng442

Forget the ICL. Just make sure your numbers at .050 are where they are supposed to be and that's it.

Seems like that Lunati cam has a very assymetrical lobe shape, which will make it very difficult to find the ICL.

coppercutlass

Like I said if you guys stick around I will post all the numbers I get and a picture of the cam card and you guys be the judge. Thanks.

captjim

Not trying to start an argument, but this is not correct. You have to find the highest point of lift on the lobe (Smitty explained this a couple of pages back), you can't go by the numbers at the lowest part of the lobe. Pardon me if this is not what you mean, but it sounds like you are saying to start at the bottom, check at .050, then rotate through and check again at .050, this will NOT give the the IC. Here is from Lunatis site,

Rotate the engine clockwise until maximum lift is reached. Zero the dial indicator and continue in
clockwise rotation until a .050 reading is reached. Mark the degree wheel at this time. Rotate the
engine counterclockwise until maximum lift is reached again. Continue counter clockwise rotation
until a reading of .070 is indicated. Now rotate the engine clockwise until the .050 is indicated on
the dial indicator. This operation will take up any slack that exist in the timing chain and gears.
Halfway between these two marks is the center on the intake lobe. An example of this might be
153" on one side of the approximate centerline and 63 deg. on the other side. By adding these two
figures you get a sum of 216 deg. This number halved gives 108 deg. This is your lobe center.

rubeng442

Can someone explain to me the importance of the ICL, given that your opening and closing points are where they are supposed to be? I just don't see much of a point to it.

Smitty275

Intake centerline is the point half way between the open and close points. So if one is right the others will be right. For most people it's easier to find ICL than to do the open/close events.

coppercutlass

Story of my life smitty the hard stuff I do and the easy stuff I f it up I got the lap top in the garage so I will be posting up the specs here ina few minutes for whom ever is currently following along if anyone is is online.