MDchanic

Thanks, Charlie - I had no idea you could get those (since they're really all that goes bad anyway).

You can get all of the other parts in there, too, it seems, as this gentleman on V8Buick describes:
- Eric

Allan R

Thanks Charlie, who do you buy the starter repair kits from or do you buy the parts individually? I'm having a heck of a time finding a starter repair kit. Have to wait till Tues to check Autozone (Partsource here) to see if they have that.

MDchanic

I think we cross-posted, Allan - look above.

- Eric

Allan R

I phoned PartSource (Autozone) this morning and they were OPEN! (civic holiday up here) So was NAPA. They only sell complete starters or individually priced parts up here now. Not cost effective.

Partsource has a starter rebuild kit that includes the brushes, bushings, clutch drive and new pinion stop and related hardware for 21.00 which sounds reasonable. The shift lever on my solenoid has some wear, but no where near what was described in that list quote as 1/2 worn. I don't think they have more than .003 wear so I'm thinking it's totally re-usable? LMK what you think.

Sorry it's a little blurry but you can definitely see not a lot of wear


The bottom is virtually no wear at all

MDchanic

Allan, I wouldn't worry about that wear all the fork has to do is throw the gear into the flywheel until it stops - it's not a precision thing.

- Eric

scooter123

Nice work Allan......cleaning up all the parts!!

Allan R

Well, more grinding under the car today. It's pretty dusty and painstaking work. Grind, blow clean, grind, clean safety glasses, grind, change sanding disc. After a while my middle back started bothering me so I looked for something else to work on for awhile.

You knew this was going to happen..... I decided to pull the starter brace, positive battery tube brace, and the linkage to the backdrive. They were all in need of cleaning so it's a done deal. No before pics because I think you all know how ugly they were from other stuff I've posted. Here are the 'after' pics. These are coated with High Temperature Metal Cast Anodizing paint. No point in leaving these sitting, I'll put them back on the car tomorrow so they don't get misplaced or forgotten.





My son and wife both say that for the last few weeks I 'smell like a greasy car'. How nice!

At this rate, I'm running out of stuff I can restore to nice shape without taking the engine/tranny out or lifting the body.....

Charlie Jones

car_designer

Allan I have a question. It might have been asked before, but I'll ask it again.

Will you actually want to drive the car once it is finished? It will be so clean, top to bottom.

Now, to be serious. I admire all the little things you are taking the time to make right.

JCMC64

...Body Off, Body off, BODY OFF!!!

You cant leave those nasty mounts on at this point! Your going 90% of the way, and going to leave the 10% undone??

Are you doing the frame all they way to the back right now?

...if you are , this is a no brainer. You can lift a side at a time like I did. Mounts are About $100, new body mount bolts $60 or so...or you can restore only the bolts you need to, and replace the others. I was able to save most of mine, but some were unsalvageable, though I did go Stainless ARPs in the end.

Easy to get original ones though...I even have a donor car I can get a few restorable ones for ya for just the cost of the ride... if need be.

The only issue is how easy they come out. Your car looks in way better shape than mine was when it started out, and mine came right out, no issues at all...though I was worried about spinning those cage nuts. But it was wasted fear, they came right out. Go for it!!

JCMC64

PS...How about some overall general shots of the entire car? Nice exterior shots and all.
One can get lost looking at all the trees, and miss the forest. I don't ever remember overall shots of your car in this thread, always the parts your restoring, etc. Are they somewhere else on up here on C.O.? Thx.

Allan R

Absolutely Paul. I love driving this car. It also takes me back to the days I used to cruise around in it with my Dad! This is not a total restoration, yet. When I get the space and time I'll definitely look at a total resto. But the car is in really nice shape overall and is dying to have the gas tank re installed and filled with giddy up go juice! As you know, patience is a virtue and also at times a real tough nut to deal with.

The body mounts actually aren't that bad. I did look at some of the puck bolts and they are in good shape too

As far as I can without lifting the body.... I know you did a great job on yours. The interior of my car however is still complete and installed. I'd have to take that apart to do what you did and I'm not ready for that.

Have a look here. It's one of the albums in my profile page.

Charlie Jones

Allan, Please don't listen to this! If you take my advice you will buy (or rent) a steam jenny and clean the bottom of the car. And then... PUT IT BACK TOGETHER!!! End the madness!! (and this thread)

Remember, You may have only 2 or 3 months of happily splashing through mudpuddles before you get SNOW!

JCMC64

Great, then they will come right out! Jack that body up!

Roger that, I checked it out. Didn't know it was a Cutlass S. Brothers- a year apart...

Charlie Jones

Allan, One more MAW.
I noticed that your battery cable that runs from the positive post to the starter has a "mickey mouse" quick fix cable end. MAW get a new cable. as long as you have the starter out.

Allan R

Charlie, I have a plan for the bottom of the car and have already started it. I don't plan to paint the bottom of the engine, just clean some of the grease/crud. Steam Jenny? You must think I have a lift or something. This car is only 17" off the ground....and that's just not enough room for a Jenny wand to get all the nooks and crannies. Not to worry, the thread will be finished soon enough, and I know pretty much how much time I have left before cold weather sets in. In the meanwhile it gives folks an opportunity to chime in with their thoughts. That's why it's sooo long. If you took out all the side topics and discussions it would be down to around 7 pages.

LOL Charlie, another MAW, right after you said to start putting it back together.... Funny you should say that as I was looking last night at Gregg's Distributors at a new cable even though it's not really necessary. I will remove that one and measure it to see what length it is, but really only plan to clean it and re-install unless I find a problem. That one you called "mickey mouse" is the OEM one, and the starter has never been out of the car till I took it out. Thanks for the offer on the solenoid rebuild kit - I can get them up here for around 20.00 if I end up needing one.

Charlie Jones

Allan, I agree that the cable is original. However, the terminal end at the battery is not.
That terminal end is a " temporary " replacement end. That was grafted on the original cable.
The point is, that a new cable that has the ends moulded on will be much more reliable than what you have there.

JCMC64

Actually that might be original battery cable end, maybe slightly bent oddly. I believe its supposed to be a 90 degree bend. I think I remember in researching cables for my 71' I learned of the elongated bnt end of the OEM. If I also remember right you can find a pic of it in the ASM or CSM... Im going to check it.

JCMC64

Yes, section 6-1, page 118 of 71' Cutlass ASM shows a great pic of it. Its original.

Allan R

Beg to differ with you Charlie, that's how the car was built, it's the same style on the negative cable. I've heard all kinds of things like 72 was a side mounted cable system, but both of our 72's were exactly the same with top mounted and same style connectors. Both were Lansing cars too.

JCMC64

As my pic above clearly shows, its an original end. But you need to properly rebend it into proper 90 angle. Look at these repops. They do not have the identically correct elongated ends with the center hole also elongated like the originals. But the proper bend is obvious. Just get a nice hard service and tap hammer and gently massage back into correct shape. That's what I did on my cable to get a more accurate 90 degree bend. Its soft lead so it bends very easily. Should be easy to get back into shape.

I cant find pictures anywhere of original style battery cable ends like ASM above shows on the web. So, when you get to this phase Allan, please take some good pics and share.

1971


1972


These starter side ends in pics above are NOT CORRECT if you want identical OEM, but they obviously will function perfectly. I bent mine just like above so I didn't have to pay big $$ for repops.

Allan R

Thanks Jim. I saw several different versions of positive battery cables. Some were from OPGI and others from other vendors. Last year I used some hand cleaner on the positive cable sheathing to clean up the gunk on it and it came out looking new as far as I could reach. Now that I have the starter out I'll simply remove the rest of the wiring with that cable and check the condition. I strongly suspect it's still very serviceable. The + and - cables are 4 gauge from what I've read. I looked at the battery connections and they are 'Made in Canada' so I know they're good quality. I could take the ends off and trim the wire a bit I suppose so there's no exposed copper anywhere, but these have worked very well since we've owned this car back in 1974.

And don't worry, I will definitely get some good pics of the cable when it's been reinstalled just before the starter gets bolted back into place. BTW, there were NO shims on this starter so it must have been a perfect fit right from the factory!

I suspect this is similar to what Charlie is suggesting:

Charlie Jones

Allan, You are exactly right. Those battery cables were modified to use a top post battery.
When side post batteries first came out they weren't available in every Middlesex, village, and farm.
The guy that owned this car probably had a battery fail somewhere in "Upper Nowheresville" and a mechanic changed over the cables because that's the only battery that he had to fit it.
Since the statute of limitations has expired on this, I will confess that I may have done the same "back in the day".
Speaking from many years of personal experience . Those battery terminal ends working for 39 years is purely a miracle!
They are much more prone to corrosion and will not conduct high amperage, as well as a new, properly made cable.

JCMC64

I was talking about the starter side ends... I just realized Charlie was talking about the ends at the battery side. I thought he was speaking about the starter side The whole time....duh. So we are both correct!
Starter side original... battery side not original...dear Watson.

Allan R

It was a lease company that owned it. (Gorrie Leasing ONT) And all this time I thought the cables were top post just because that's how we bought it. Learn something new every day. I saw a kit on fleabay to change out the ends to side post again but the dang seller won't ship here. Have to see if local stores carry that kit. I don't think enough of the cable is missing to be an issue with fitting properly.

JCMC64

If you can't find one .,..have it shipped to one of us and we'll ship it to you. I'll do it for you, if it comes to that. No problem at all.

oldcutlass

Will you put the gas tank in and take momma for a ride already, summers almost over. Go enjoy it already.

Allan R

Lessee now,
Gas tank, fuel hoses, starter, trans linkages, inspection cover, brake lines, e-brake, bleed the brakes, redo the diff gasket (leaking with supplied PP gasket, bought new felpro), change speedo gear, rear bumper, torque all CA's with weight of car, exhaust, flush cooling system, change oil.... fill gas tank with gas, zooooom zoooooom vrrooooom! Couple of hours and I'll be good to go!

There will be a week delay starting next Friday. We're heading to the West Coast to visit with family. I'll probably be chomping at the bit to finish when I get back. August/September around here are usually pretty nice weather. (warning bells ringing in the background...)

oldcutlass

Yup, all you lack is finishing up.

Allan R

Just a quick update. Sorry - no pics as I'm not even home right now.

Got all the frame sanded that was practical, and that was actually a lot. 2 coats of Rustoleum Semi gloss paint (brush on) and it looks more like 'satin' finish. Found that using a foam brush to apply, then pat the surface with the flat side of the brush leaves a nice even level coat without ridges. So when I get back from the coast everything should be nicely cured and ready for all the installation progress, or as Eric pointed out - the 'finishing up'.

Sorry Jim, didn't get pics of the sanding (it was nasty with all the debris coming off) but to answer your concern. The air angle grinder worked very very well and allowed me better access than an electric. The work heads on the angle grinder are smaller and can get into tight areas.

Allan R

Update time.

Been busy with Graeme and catching up on yardwork so the progress is a bit slower than I planned.

Transmission linkages all installed and selector calibrated. Lubed as indicated in the assembly manual.



Proportioning valve and front brake lines installed. I think it would have been better to install the lines to the prop valve before mounting it. The way it worked out was a royal PITA to install the lines after the valve is mounted to the frame. I tried for over 30 minutes to get the replacement lines for the MC started but it was a no go. Finally in desperation I capped off the OEM lines, media blasted them clean and blew them out with compressed air. They had no trouble starting or threading so this will be part old and restored, part new lines.


Front lines to both front discs installed. You can see the bottom of the oil pan has been degreased and looks much nicer. Also got a replacement bolt for the missing one in the oil pan.



When I was cleaning the bottom of the engine I noticed (quite by accident) there was a stamping where the starter bolts in. Not sure what it signifies but someone at the factory obviously had a reason for hand stamping


The brake line to the rear has been custom bent to match the OEM. I think I may have to undo the left side control arm to get better access for the line to fit. I SHOULD have put this line in last fall before the axle went in. Would have been SO much easier.

Allan R

So after installing the W27 cover last fall I was really shocked this spring to find that it had been leaking (very small leak) over the winter. The gasket that went on was the one supplied by Parts Place and came with the W27 cover. It's very thin and apparently doesn't form a great seal. I probably should have used some permatex on it in the first place. Lesson learned. It was thoroughly soaked all the way through and easy to see why it leaked.


New gasket is Felpro and about 3x as thick. This time I used permatex 2 on the mating surfaces and gasket to ensure no leaks. Also found out that when AD filled the housing up, they overfilled it. I drained all the gear oil/posi additive into a clean catch pail since I planned to re-use it. Turns out there was close to 5 pints or more in that pumpkin. I bought a small (8 oz) squeeze bottle to use for refilling purposes. The gear oil started oozing out the bung with still almost 5 oz of fluid left in the bottle. I'll check in the morning but I'm sure I got this sucker buttoned up tight now.



Also documented the gear ratio. See those mesh patterns? More below



While I had the cover off I re-checked the drive / coast pattern on the gear mesh. Looks really good!





Tomorrow I'm off to the boneyard to look for a 200R4, but I'm not holding my breath. Also need to get a lower grill for my wife's Saturn. It only takes about 20 minutes to pop one of those plastic cars apart. Hey, 10 bucks for a good used part? I'll take that over new GM pricing anyday.

Also will try to get that long brake line installed. Should be an interesting start to the Labor day weekend!

Allan R

The brake lines/hoses are all in and tight. Just waiting till the engine can be fired to bleed them, so I left the MC connections till last. Didn't want to have to take off the MC and bench bleed it again. Rear brake lines needed some hard love to get into place but they're snug now and anchored in all the right places.

Hose to differential and brake lines (new from ILT) I think I like the OEM one better.


Other side of hose/line connection


Connection to Prop valve

Allan R

Next was the fuel hoses to the vent cannister, emissions pipe and fuel tank. These parts were all cleaned last year and restored. They're in perfect shape and have strong structural integrity. I used just a bit of vaseline inside the hoses to help them slide onto the fittings. NOTE: none of the cannister lines use a clamp. Only the tank vent lines and main fuel/sender lines do.

I used the OEM hoses as templates for the new 5/16 and 3/8" hoses. I cut each of the replacement hoses about 3/4" longer (as instructed in the AM and CSM). That gives more flexibility for the connections to the pipes and tank.


Decided to restore the old spring clamps and use them. I just can't see why they should be replaced since they cleaned up really nice and still have good tensile strength. I painted them yellow because that's what color they originally were.

Allan R

Last years work is paying off big time. The rear bumper braces are restored and the fasteners (ILT) are all new. Time to test fit the rear bumper. Tip: This goes much easier if you have 2 people doing it. I was by myself so I had to improvise.

Tape off the quarter panel where the bumper will be fitted to avoid scratching your paint. That saved me a few times during the process. Got the bumper braces installed loosely then hung the bumper on them and snugged down the bumper bolts. To hang the bumper I improvised a small step stool and wood blocks to get the desired height.

After about 2 1/2 hours (who would have thought this could be so complicated?) the bumper is properly test fitted and gaps are exactly as the AM says. .5" +/- .06 so I'm happy with it. Now it can come off and be fitted with the lights and electrical/license plate bracket.





Don't worry about the cutouts and exhaust - the car is getting a new custom exhaust soon as it's drivable. I was thinking about some chambered exhausts as an option but they might be too long.



My missus came out just as I was finishing up and took this pic of me feeling pretty hot and smelly. This is for Jim who complained he never got to see a pic of me working on my car! This is what happens as you age past 57........not quite the pillsbury dough mechanic, but close. My wife says I should shave de moustache and color my hair to look closer to 45 but I don't think so. Not unless it makes the chics wanna ride with me! LOL That just ain't gonna happen I think. Would have to be a blind chic...

JCMC64

That hose fitting right? I lnow the rear is drooped but I dont remember mine being so taut. I know it will slack up fine once rear is lowered. But still doesnt look right from this angle.

Man, everything shiny and new. NICE!

And dont worry, you dont look a day past 60!

DENT

Very cool Allan, i can't wait to get your impression of the new rear gears. Lookin good.

Allan R

It's the angle Jim. There's actually a fair bit of slack in the hose. It's exactly the same length as the OEM that came off. Not a day over 60 huh? Anudder wize guy, nyuk nyuk nyuk. Now I know how you stay so skinny. With the temps up here being in the mid 80's, it's in the mid 90's in those coveralls. I swear I've been sweating off 5 lbs a day.... and when I go in, I can't wait for an ice cold one....or two... You know.

Thanks Henry. I can hardly wait too. It's starting to come together much nicer now. I'm still pissed at AD - the front pinion seal has a mild leak - drips once every 3 or 4 days and that's with the diff not being used! They also over filled it by a good 7 oz. I found that out because the rear seal was leaking and I had to replace it. They better make it right. When it goes in I plan to be right there and watch as they do the work. They have shown me nothing but Cluster F*** work each time I've had to go back for the work they did.

sammy

Ahhhh ha.....finally a face to go along with the name!
Great pic Allan....a man and his car

Speaking of car, you have done great work Allan....congrats!

Ted

car_designer

So that's what you look like Allan.