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Took the H/O on a long drive, 60 miles, tonight. I'm going to the HOCA nationals this weekend and have been doing a lot of work to it. The car runs strongly and most everything works great. I have lumped all things into one thread, feel free to tackle one or all.
1. Hot start issue. The car starts fine cold, but, once last night, and once tonight, the starter turned the car over slowly. It did start both times. It went "whuh....whuh...." then did it again and started on the second try. Later on, when the engine was either same temp or even warmer, it spun it just fine and up it started, on both nights. I seem to recall this doing this in May at a car show, after it sat for a while, like 3 hours, so I hesitate to call it purely heat related. What are the symptoms of dead spot on the winding? I put a battery disconnect on it, it's even on the positive side. Very energetic when cold, or started later on; it just seems to not like it sometime. I think I will pull the disconnect off. It also has a heat shield on the starter, but doesn't look as big as the normal one. Picture in the next post. Edit: It definitely goes slow crank, not click click click like some reported heat soak behavior. I have not had a timing light on this car, it seems to start fine cold and half the time hot. I haven't been able to make it ping doing anything.
2. Lost low beam right side on new headlight. Found connection was not made fully, my bad. Plugged it in, got low. Think this one is good.
3. Shutting car off in humid evening results in some fog on windshield on passenger side, about a foot square. Thinking this is normal and results from ac controls losing vacuum and pointing that way.
4. Drove home from gas station on high beams. They started to blink, and I lost gauge lights too. Wiggling the switch restored it. Low beams did not do this (the one that was working). I think my headlight switch is questionable.
5. I have a heater hose sitting on the exhaust heat stove. I can route this above the PCV or put an insulator there, or better routing if people suggest. Picture in the next post
6. The faint whistling noise that I mentioned in another thread was not present this time until night time. Shutting off headlights did not make it go away. I am wondering if I am annoying my alternator with the headlights and I am getting whine from a diode, but that should be constant and not vary with RPM like this. Not found yet.
I don't think any of these are critical, worst case is I wait a bit to hot start, but advice/cause analysis is welcome.
Edit, the red thing down there is a shiny new Purolator oil filter in the last picture, not ATF pooled. Also, that big busted bolt in the side of the starter might be the side bolt the bracket goes to. I'm a little unfamiliar with this heat shield; I've seen a picture.
John -
Regarding the heater hose. My heater hose is routed top-side of all other appliances on my engine. I would re-route the heater hose to the very top across everything. I may take a picture of mine (later) if I'm so inclined, but I'm leaving for the day and it won't be until much later.
Regarding the winding:
I guess who haven't identified the whistling noise, as yet? I would start the engine from a cold start (not hot); then, turn on every single accessory on the car - AC, lights, radio, etc. to see if there is a difference in the whistling sound. I'd attempt the same test again after driving the car for some time and do a engine hot start with no accessories running; then, turn on every single accessory again to see if the whistling sound changes. If the alternator's stator or rotor windings were going bad I'd think the whistling noise might change as more demand was placed on the alternator - could be bad slip rings, as well. I'd think any of those would vary with both RPM and electrical load. Even the cooling fan could be suspect and all of them might change with load & RPM. I'm not certain the whistling noise would change if the diode were suspect since the diode field & rectifier really just isolate the electrical field and I wouldn't think they'd create a whistling noise at all.
John - Read your entire post and looked at the pics. Wish I could help you buddy, but I'm a novice mechanic at best, and rely on the expertise of guys on this site, and a couple of buddies that our real grease monkeys (with all affection). I hope you can track down the sources of the remaining issues.
I'm not sure my routing is the same as yours since your air breather exhaust heat stove are dissimilar? None-the-less (I need to get going but had a couple extra minutes) I took several pictures of mine if they help ('71 sbo CS convertible).
There are a number of potential causes for the starter issue. Start with the solenoid contact disc and the brushes/commutator. Also verify that voltage on the purple wire at the solenoid is above 12V when cranking. Yeah, that's a PITA to reach with a voltmeter probe. The circuitous wiring of the START circuit means that there are a lot of potential voltage drops along the way, and it doesn't take many of them to cause starter problems when hot. It also doesn't take much pitting in the solenoid contact disc to increase the resistance. That disc rotates a little every time you engage the starter, which is why it can sometimes work and sometimes not.
There's only one wire from the headlight switch to the dimmer. If any headlights are not flickering, the problem can't be the switch. Instrument lights are a different set of contacts inside the switch, but problems there are usually the rheostat, which will be fixed by a new switch.
Be sure that fogging on the passenger side isn't a leaking heater core. That is exactly the symptom I had when the core in my D88 went bad.
Just had a thought about your whistle. Check vac lines and components connected to any thermostatically controlled vacuum switches on front of intake manifold. Thinking vacuum may be allowed through valve/switch once coolant gets hot and valve activates, leading to the whistle.
Starter - Inspect and clean all connections. Leave ground disconnected at battery and clean battery connections, take ground off cyl head and wire brush the contact area of both the terminal and head, same for starter connections, same for solenoid to winding connection at end of starter. Same for ground on back of passenger cyl head to firewall.
Starter and/or solenoid could be problem but clean connections help eliminate some possibilities.
Fog - I would start smelling and tasting for coolant under & above dash, you might have a heater core leak. Losing any coolant, know anyone with a pressure tester? Catching a heater core leak before it gets a chance to soak your carpet is always good.
Headlights - clean all connections and grounds, including @ switch before condemning any parts.
Last edited by bccan; July 13th, 2021 at 07:33 AM.
About the flickering headlight, I changed a headlight as you did and then had a intermittent problem with low beam not working on one side. I could reach down behind light and wiggle connection and get to work, for a while. I bought one of those wire release deallys that you can probe into the connection and release the inner brass connection and take them right out of the plastic. My connections were corroded and green. Now they were out I could clean then really well with a wire brush. After cleaning I put it all back together with a little dialectic grease and has been ok since. That tool has been used a lot since, I recommend all car guys should have one.
A few thoughts:
Be sure that fogging on the passenger side isn't a leaking heater core. That is exactly the symptom I had when the core in my D88 went bad.
Ken, yeah this thing has not not cranked yet, it just seems to have resistance sometimes. I'm not an electrical eng, I was thinking maybe the diode was behind the voltage regulator.
Chris, kind words are always good.
Norm, that helps. I have found the issue off your pics. Your last picture is the money. My heater hose is behind and on top of the heat stove, not in front and below it like yours. I need to flop it over it once I take the air filter apart.
Joe, I don't think I can swing an starter R&R on my first try on an Olds (I've dicked with some Toyotas) in the two nights I have left. I should plan to drop the starter and do brush, commutator, and contact disc then. Not my picture, but, below we have battery cable on top, ignition switched power on the purple cable on the right and yellow full 12 V to coil, I believe, on left. I can get the lead on that terminal tonight and see what the multimeter says.
The headlights issue was twofold. The right outer lamp plug was not fully engaged and has been corrected. The vehicle lost all lighting occasionally while on high beams, including instrumentation. Thinking bad switch. (Edit: bad main headlight switch....the stomper hi/lo switch seems ok)
Heater core. I'll take a towel and plan to replace it later. To do the dreaded bypass, if I had to, I would need to go from the back of the block where the first heater hose is, but instead go back to the water pump's diagonal port where the second hose is. I'll take coolant.
Bccan, I'll look at connections tonight as to what I can. Full redo will be part of the starter R&R. I'll look for the heater core smell and taste. I do know the overflow bottle will start equalizing slowly right when the car is shut off. I can pressure test it long term in the future.
Greg, Joe (second comment), noted on the pokey things. The majority of this trip will be in daylight. Evansville to Racine, 6am through noon, central. Stay put at hotel. Friday, drive to drag strip (not racing), hang out, drive back.in the early evening. Saturday all day at hotel, probably no driving. Sunday, drive home in early AM. I also don't like the grittyness of the switch rotating and how the dash lights cut in and out when turning on the cabin lighting via left turn.
Tnswt, thanks for well wishes. I'll towel this thing and keep an eye on it. Sounds like the dash is coming down for a bunch of reasons. (Headlight switch, AC vent is wrong type, now heater core, so I may do them all at once, later.)
I had headers on a chevy once that were too close to the starter. They would heat it up, it would expand inside and lock up. Once it cooled down it would start fine. IF that's your issue I would wrap that pipe in heat tape...a lot.
I had headers on a chevy once that were too close to the starter. They would heat it up, it would expand inside and lock up. Once it cooled down it would start fine. IF that's your issue I would wrap that pipe in heat tape...a lot.
Joe, I don't think I can swing an starter R&R on my first try on an Olds (I've dicked with some Toyotas) in the two nights I have left. I should plan to drop the starter and do brush, commutator, and contact disc then. Not my picture, but, below we have battery cable on top, ignition switched power on the purple cable on the right and yellow full 12 V to coil, I believe, on left. I can get the lead on that terminal tonight and see what the multimeter says.
Correct. If you can get in there, you're a better contortionist than I am. When you do drop the starter, I'd just replace the entire solenoid. And given how much of a PITA it is to deal with that 800 lb GM starter, I also throw in a new starter drive any time I have it out.
We'll see. Contortions are part of my job, but we try to make the cars at ergonomic height and assembled in order...and they're new, too. Will probably check voltage and check connections. It hasn't come anywhere close to not starting yet, so I think I am good for now in any case. No issue yet with cold start, so worst case is wait a while.
We'll see. Contortions are part of my job, but we try to make the cars at ergonomic height and assembled in order...and they're new, too. Will probably check voltage and check connections. It hasn't come anywhere close to not starting yet, so I think I am good for now in any case. No issue yet with cold start, so worst case is wait a while.
As a fallback, I've found that when the no-start is due to resistance in the solenoid, a jump often gets it started.
Starter positive cable from battery should be at leasta 2 gauge or larger. Change out the factory wire and get a new high-quality battery cable. Summit 2 Gauge Cable
I will probably get a correct numbered starter rebuilt and check everything. There's no reason to go aftermarket if a correctly working original meets the needs. If it doesn't, then it's needed.
I'll second the 2-gauge wires. I get mine from batterycablesusa.com. US-made and excellent quality. Unfortunately the turnaround time likely won't support your HOCA trip. The only downside is that the battery clamps are not optically correct. They also sell cables in other gauges.
Actually, I just realized that your 72 uses side terminals - I don't think they carry those. I was able to get AC Delco 2-gauge side terminal cables for my 84 GMC from one of the big-box parts vendors.
John - Any chance you have a marine shop/store nearby or a real electrical supply house - NOT a West Marine, but a real marine or electrical shop/store? I can routinely obtain #2 in either copper or aluminum from either supply shop. They have it on rolls. They'll cut it to length & they'll also attach terminal ends with heat shrink. No ordering involved - you walk in, tell them what you need and it's nothing more than watching/waiting for them. No need to buy only certain lengths and wait on an order.
Joe wins the contortion award, ain't no way I can get in there without more effort than I wanted to do. Removed the battery disconnect, bolted down and solid. Went for a 5 mile drive, 5 starts total, no issue.
Trico 47-700 wiper blades suck mad ***, do not put them in your Olds. They torque against the windshield, toss the metal rail, and come loose. I am lucky I did not gouge the glass. I may have some discontinued inserts for another GM around here, may try to find them.
Washed car (found above wiper issue...washer pump status is unknown.) HOLY ***** does the trunk leak! It seems to be the seal, not the rear window, so this is a fix for another time. I THOUGHT it sounded metally when closing, like a weak seal.
That whistle is only present in the dark in high humidity. No climate control or headlights touched tonight. I am leaving the heater core to full cold, as I think that locks the flow out. Still got the fog out the right vent, I'll take a picture.
Dried the car off, put it away with a box fan in the emptied out trunk. Going to have to repack that now, sigh.
To check your starting problems you would need a DVOM, digital volt meter and a means to measure amperage draw with a inductive D/C amp gauge. When the engine is hot and hard to crank clamp the amp meter and see how many amps your drawing. Should be no more than around 300. If high my next step would be a voltage drop test of both neg and pos batter post to ground and battery post to starter main wire. By installing one end of the volt meter and measuring between the body of the starter to the neg terminal on the battery, should be between nothing and tops 1 volt,,,1 volts is kinda high but,,,,then do the same with pos. side, pos lug on battery to the large lug on the starter and measure the same way with hopefully near 0 volts. The voltage reading on your neg and pos. sides represent resistance in your circuit. That's where I would start and if it's OK I'll check back on your post and perhaps point you in another direction. I see you've been advised to up your wire game by going with a 2g wire which couldn't hurt but I'd want to know the problem before throwing money/parts at it. Those voltage numbers from the drop test is the amount of volts that are NOT getting to your starter cranking. I've also gone the route of wrapping a starter in a heat blanket, they sell them to keep heat off your starter during a hot soak.
Last edited by 1970greensupreme; July 13th, 2021 at 08:55 PM.
That's comprehensive good advice. I am going to replace the starter with a rebuilt, numerically correct one so that it is both good and numbers correct for the year and model. When I do that, I will check the electrical as you describe
before throwing more money at it. This will let me drop the exhaust pipe, hang the heat shield, and give good access to terminals.
July 12th, 2021, 09:16 PM
