W36 stripes at Seven Springs
August 19th, 2009, 11:35 AM
#121
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It's listed as a Cutlass Coupe so what options were available in 1971 and what does this car have that was not an option for it.
I need some enlightenment
I need some enlightenment
The intake, carb, air cleaner, and ignition are obviously not OEM. The dual gate was a factory option, but not that steering wheel or gauges. The W25 hood was an available option (but I've got $10 that says the one on that car is an all-'glass repro). The stripes to not mirror anything that was factory available, and as we've pointed out here before, the only Cutlii with stripes on the trunk were the 1970 pace cars and the 1972 H/O.
August 19th, 2009, 02:21 PM
#122
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Joe can I ask you about stripes, I know this is a new topic for you. Now start at the beginning and just explain everything you know about stripes and where they go on the car, how wide, how far apart, and so on and so on and oh you know what I mean....................................
August 20th, 2009, 05:00 AM
#125
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Thanks for the info joe , I know it gets tedious but I found out something about the trunk stripes.
Thought I had read before it was not something Olds did and the pace cars were the only ones with them.being new to Oldsmobiles ( first one ever) and new to having a classic car I tend to ask a lot of dumb questions. Didn't someone say that there are no dumb questions? I guess that depends on ones perception , to me it may not sound dumb but to a lot of the guys who have been collecting olds and knowledge of Olds it may be.I did see a similar Olds with the trunk stripes at a show around here last year but thought it was not original.Not sure though if it was a 72 so if I see it again I will check it out a lot closer.
Thought I had read before it was not something Olds did and the pace cars were the only ones with them.being new to Oldsmobiles ( first one ever) and new to having a classic car I tend to ask a lot of dumb questions. Didn't someone say that there are no dumb questions? I guess that depends on ones perception , to me it may not sound dumb but to a lot of the guys who have been collecting olds and knowledge of Olds it may be.I did see a similar Olds with the trunk stripes at a show around here last year but thought it was not original.Not sure though if it was a 72 so if I see it again I will check it out a lot closer.
August 20th, 2009, 05:20 AM
#126
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Joe can I ask you about stripes, I know this is a new topic for you. Now start at the beginning and just explain everything you know about stripes and where they go on the car, how wide, how far apart, and so on and so on and oh you know what I mean....................................
August 30th, 2009, 12:01 PM
#129
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I hear ya,
But they still look good. When I had my 68 W30 25 years ago the original stripes were still on the car. My friend has a 69 RT Coronet with a special stripe delete package so he left them off. I guess thier very rare but I'd be putting the stripe on the back of that Dodge if it were mine.
But they still look good. When I had my 68 W30 25 years ago the original stripes were still on the car. My friend has a 69 RT Coronet with a special stripe delete package so he left them off. I guess thier very rare but I'd be putting the stripe on the back of that Dodge if it were mine.
Back to the W36 . . . I would love to see all the stripe colors. I recall both orange and red being available, which is kinda strange because they probably were close to each other. I know there's one factory red photograph with a very subtle stripe, which I'm guessing is orange. For 1968 at least, orange seems to be an interesting color choice for a stripe. I'd have to look in my book for the other colors, but I'm gonna guess black, white, and . . . hmm, I don't think gold came out till '69? There must be one or two other colors (blue?), but considering there's so many problems with the stripe on restored cars, I doubt I'll be able to find the cars or pics of them.
August 30th, 2009, 01:21 PM
#130
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I'd have to look in my book for the other colors, but I'm gonna guess black, white, and . . . hmm, I don't think gold came out till '69? There must be one or two other colors (blue?), but considering there's so many problems with the stripe on restored cars, I doubt I'll be able to find the cars or pics of them.
So the blue W36 stripes we've seen are not an original color, I take it.
August 30th, 2009, 03:59 PM
#133
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Indeed, the color choices are black, white, orange, and red.
Interestingly enough, Nocturne Blue had red and orange as being a recommended combo. Ditto for Willow Gold, Ocean Turquoise, Teal Blue, Silver Green, Scarlet (like the ad), and Jade Gold. The combos I mentioned are the only ones where both red and orange were available with the respective color, and I skipped obvious colors like Provincial White.
While a poor picture, THIS auction has the book with the red/orange (or red/red?) stripe car.
Interestingly enough, Nocturne Blue had red and orange as being a recommended combo. Ditto for Willow Gold, Ocean Turquoise, Teal Blue, Silver Green, Scarlet (like the ad), and Jade Gold. The combos I mentioned are the only ones where both red and orange were available with the respective color, and I skipped obvious colors like Provincial White.
While a poor picture, THIS auction has the book with the red/orange (or red/red?) stripe car.
August 30th, 2009, 05:02 PM
#134
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While a poor picture, THIS auction has the book with the red/orange (or red/red?) stripe car.
August 31st, 2009, 11:54 AM
#138
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A few points came to me as I read this thread:
What about a race car that was sold as a new car in full race trim and lettered? It is a promo car, with dealer installed options. If documented (like the original bill of sale as a new car), shouldn't it go into stock class?
What about a race car that was sold as a new car in full race trim and lettered? It is a promo car, with dealer installed options. If documented (like the original bill of sale as a new car), shouldn't it go into stock class?
A "Race" car would outclass the stock cars ...
If you auction the car it will be "Judged" by judges looking to buy and I am pretty sure they will pay a premium and be impressed by the raw beauty of such a beast ...
August 31st, 2009, 01:45 PM
#139
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In my opinion, "stock" means as the car came from the factory assembly line and generally available to the public. Unfortunately, this gets complicated in a hurry. Are the Hemi Darts from the late 1960s "stock"? They were sold as "not for street use".
August 31st, 2009, 02:50 PM
#140
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There's a difference between "stock" and "street-legal." Stock is anything from the factory, so a Hemi Dart or Barracuda is stock as long as it has not been modified. However, it can't be compared with a 4-4-2 or anything like that because the Mopars are not street-legal.
In comparison, a ZL-1 Camaro is a more apt comparison to the Olds because the ZL-1 was street-legal. The fact that the car was packaged as such, relying on the owner to made the mods necessary for competition (early W-30s and later 4-speed cars were like this too), is in its favor even though there's light years difference between a regular Olds and a ZL-1 that cost 8 grand.
In comparison, a ZL-1 Camaro is a more apt comparison to the Olds because the ZL-1 was street-legal. The fact that the car was packaged as such, relying on the owner to made the mods necessary for competition (early W-30s and later 4-speed cars were like this too), is in its favor even though there's light years difference between a regular Olds and a ZL-1 that cost 8 grand.
August 31st, 2009, 03:43 PM
#141
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A race car could be a "one-off" done with that specific lettering by the dealership, for example. there woldn't be 500 of them. I was referencing the OCA rules about dealer added stuff, documentation, and its status as a promo vehicle. AFAIK, only two such race cars have shown up at the Nationals, one restored and never to be raced again, the other a re-creation that is raced.
August 31st, 2009, 07:46 PM
#142
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You bring up an interesting situation, Say I just restored a nice well documented "Stock Race Car" I would want to show it maybe win a trophy...
At most shows there would only be me in the "Stock Race Car" category, Would judges be able to grade a car like that on correctness ..?
September 1st, 2009, 07:29 AM
#143
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This again shows why we need better terminology.
September 1st, 2009, 07:52 AM
#144
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While a poor picture, THIS auction has the book with the red/orange (or red/red?) stripe car.
factsoflife.jpg
Last edited by 68Tom; September 1st, 2009 at 08:39 AM.
September 1st, 2009, 08:33 AM
#145
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A race car could be a "one-off" done with that specific lettering by the dealership, for example. there woldn't be 500 of them. I was referencing the OCA rules about dealer added stuff, documentation, and its status as a promo vehicle. AFAIK, only two such race cars have shown up at the Nationals, one restored and never to be raced again, the other a re-creation that is raced.
When considering what should be in the stock classes, we have basically 2 choices:
1. How it came from the factory.
2. How it came from the dealer*.
I can understand why #2 should be considered, but the dealer had the latitude to add pretty much *anything* to a car. So if the proverbial "kitchen sink" was added, should *that* be allowed? Personally, I think #2 is fine if limited to *Oldsmobile* accessories, both dealer and factory.
*OCA is not very clear at all on this ("“Accessories of the Era” will be treated as dealer options and proof of Authenticity may be required. (Supportive Literature )" and "STOCK / RESTORED STOCK means that the vehicle is as it appeared when new plus any accessories of the era and so-called “Promo Vehicles” must provide proof of existence.") as to exactly what this means. Sounds like "fuzzy dice" are acceptable.
September 1st, 2009, 02:07 PM
#146
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Joe, even with good terminology (my previous post), you have a good example of a rightfully questionable situation.
When considering what should be in the stock classes, we have basically 2 choices:
1. How it came from the factory.
2. How it came from the dealer*.
I can understand why #2 should be considered, but the dealer had the latitude to add pretty much *anything* to a car. So if the proverbial "kitchen sink" was added, should *that* be allowed? Personally, I think #2 is fine if limited to *Oldsmobile* accessories, both dealer and factory.
When considering what should be in the stock classes, we have basically 2 choices:
1. How it came from the factory.
2. How it came from the dealer*.
I can understand why #2 should be considered, but the dealer had the latitude to add pretty much *anything* to a car. So if the proverbial "kitchen sink" was added, should *that* be allowed? Personally, I think #2 is fine if limited to *Oldsmobile* accessories, both dealer and factory.
I'm somewhat of a purist here. I would argue that a factory assembled L-69 car is "stock", but a dealer-installed Track Pac car is not (thought it IS "stock-appearing"). This whole argument gets very ugly very quickly.
September 2nd, 2009, 05:48 AM
#147
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A car "is what it is", so trying to call it something like "stock" doesn't mean much unless there is a context or purpose for the definition/classification.
In this case, we're talking about judging classification for OCA judging.
So when it comes to what is in a "stock" class, we clarify definitions and make decisions (*and* exceptions) accordingly.
As an theoretical example of what I mean:
"Stock" class is determined by "factory correct". Dealer installs of *Oldmobile items* are allowed *with supporting* literature or proof.
Then we have to determine *specifically* what deviations are simply points off, and what takes it out of the class. (And as I've previously said, standards need to be developed)
Hurst Olds can be made a specific exception ('68 and '69 are the only ones that need it, right?). Other exceptions like that can be made.
Decisions like that can be made right down the line to pretty much sort things out. I don't ever see covering every little possible exception that comes along, but the vast majority could be covered. But it has to be done specifically, not in general terms.
I consider this to be a minor problem compared to not having standards established. Put specifically, what class to put a '68 Hurst Olds in is not nearly the problem that not having a standard developed for it is.
September 2nd, 2009, 01:48 PM
#148
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NHRA and IHRA have definitions of "stock" for their usage. OCA has such a definition for judging (see above on stuff of the era and promo vehicles). thus, as also pointed out above, what really is stock? Then, there is the argument of L69 and W30 Track Pack cars. Back in 66-67, these were merely options. 397615 converted your 442 to L69, and 230195 converted it to W30, so are they stock, are they dealer/owner installed options, or what? If the dealer puts in a radio, is your car no longer stock? How about power steering or different wheel covers? See the point? If GMPD offered it, and specified it for your year/model, how can you exclude it? Darn few of the 66 W30 factory cars came with dog dish hubcaps, but "everyone" "restores" them that way. Should they be kicked out of stock OCA judging?
September 2nd, 2009, 10:32 PM
#149
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Since a lack of factory documentation like phs plagues Olds the proper documentation is important...
I used to think a logical progression of parts date codes was sufficient but I guess with Olds
you can forget about that ...
I'm glad I have a 70 (442 in vin) non w 30 (I don't have to document that )...
I used to think a logical progression of parts date codes was sufficient but I guess with Olds
you can forget about that ...
I'm glad I have a 70 (442 in vin) non w 30 (I don't have to document that )...
September 3rd, 2009, 04:39 AM
#150
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Factory vs. Dealer installed
So, In 1968 I'm in a show room looking at a 68 442. The salesman says, Would you like to buy this car?" And I say, "Yeah, I would but I really wanted the fender stripes."
Does the salesman say," I can order you one." or "I can have stripes put on any car you want."
My long awaited point?
I wonder how many W-36 stripes were added [all be it incorrrectly] at the dealerships [as opposed to during restoration] i.e Has anyone seen an incorect survivor?
Just food for thought.
Does the salesman say," I can order you one." or "I can have stripes put on any car you want."
My long awaited point?
I wonder how many W-36 stripes were added [all be it incorrrectly] at the dealerships [as opposed to during restoration] i.e Has anyone seen an incorect survivor?
Just food for thought.
September 3rd, 2009, 08:19 AM
#151
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FYI, the term you're looking for is "albeit", not "all be it"...
September 3rd, 2009, 10:29 AM
#152
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NHRA and IHRA have definitions of "stock" for their usage. OCA has such a definition for judging (see above on stuff of the era and promo vehicles). thus, as also pointed out above, what really is stock? Then, there is the argument of L69 and W30 Track Pack cars. Back in 66-67, these were merely options. 397615 converted your 442 to L69, and 230195 converted it to W30, so are they stock, are they dealer/owner installed options, or what? If the dealer puts in a radio, is your car no longer stock? How about power steering or different wheel covers? See the point? If GMPD offered it, and specified it for your year/model, how can you exclude it? Darn few of the 66 W30 factory cars came with dog dish hubcaps, but "everyone" "restores" them that way. Should they be kicked out of stock OCA judging?
There is:
1. How it (a particular car) came from the factory (or dealer, however defined). Only a well documented car would be able to qualify for this and even so, there are *lots* of details that are still open to scrutiny.
2. How it (any car) *could* have come from the factory (or dealer however as defined)
There is *nothing* in the judging that takes #1 into consideration. Not that there should be necessarily, as this would be extremely difficult to evaluate for accuracy.
So we have #2 for judging purposes. So there would be no problem, ram-air or no ram-air, radio or no radio, as long as standards are developed to determine if they were available.. There is a category for "authenticiy" and though I believe that it too isn't well defined, it seems to mean just "how correct".
Believe me, a lot (I'd even say most) of these problems arise from a from a lack of definitions. Let alone standards.
September 3rd, 2009, 10:54 AM
#153
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September 3rd, 2009, 11:09 AM
#154
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All good points, but once again we're stumbling on the word "stock" We don't have to stumble on it, we just have to define it.
There is:
1. How it (a particular car) came from the factory (or dealer, however defined). Only a well documented car would be able to qualify for this and even so, there are *lots* of details that are still open to scrutiny.
2. How it (any car) *could* have come from the factory (or dealer however as defined)
There is *nothing* in the judging that takes #1 into consideration. Not that there should be necessarily, as this would be extremely difficult to evaluate for accuracy.
So we have #2 for judging purposes. So there would be no problem, ram-air or no ram-air, radio or no radio, as long as standards are developed to determine if they were available.. There is a category for "authenticiy" and though I believe that it too isn't well defined, it seems to mean just "how correct".
Believe me, a lot (I'd even say most) of these problems arise from a from a lack of definitions. Let alone standards.
There is:
1. How it (a particular car) came from the factory (or dealer, however defined). Only a well documented car would be able to qualify for this and even so, there are *lots* of details that are still open to scrutiny.
2. How it (any car) *could* have come from the factory (or dealer however as defined)
There is *nothing* in the judging that takes #1 into consideration. Not that there should be necessarily, as this would be extremely difficult to evaluate for accuracy.
So we have #2 for judging purposes. So there would be no problem, ram-air or no ram-air, radio or no radio, as long as standards are developed to determine if they were available.. There is a category for "authenticiy" and though I believe that it too isn't well defined, it seems to mean just "how correct".
Believe me, a lot (I'd even say most) of these problems arise from a from a lack of definitions. Let alone standards.
The entrants would post pics and if possible take additional pics as requested ...
We (the judges/members) could try to categorize the different cars ...
I would put up some t-shirts ( I entered the C O .com car show and all I got was this t-shirt) ...
We could have a poll for peoples choice and other categories ...
September 3rd, 2009, 06:54 PM
#156
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Or brats with ice cream faces rubbing said face on your door panel ...
I showed my car when it was beat. I 'd be parked next to $250,000 custom and more people stopped to check out "Chuckles". I'd let them sit in it and I'd start it and rev it up ...
Interactive display ...
I showed my car when it was beat. I 'd be parked next to $250,000 custom and more people stopped to check out "Chuckles". I'd let them sit in it and I'd start it and rev it up ...
Interactive display ...
September 5th, 2009, 04:54 PM
#157
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Albeit? My name is Al and now I be it?
I always have to be it.
An online car show would be safe for the cars, Photoshop may be a slight problem for those not inclined to full disclosure of truth.
I have to say at this point in time that the world's top Bikini models wearing their work clothes are always loitering around and on my car whenever I take pics of it.
I ask in advance that all virtual car show judges please refrain from any thought suggesting that I would manipulate my photographic images to gain any advantage with my photo editing software that I know how to do that with.
Thank you
I always have to be it.
An online car show would be safe for the cars, Photoshop may be a slight problem for those not inclined to full disclosure of truth.
I have to say at this point in time that the world's top Bikini models wearing their work clothes are always loitering around and on my car whenever I take pics of it.
I ask in advance that all virtual car show judges please refrain from any thought suggesting that I would manipulate my photographic images to gain any advantage with my photo editing software that I know how to do that with.
Thank you
September 7th, 2009, 01:28 PM
#158
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September 7th, 2009, 01:32 PM
#159
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Albeit? My name is Al and now I be it?
I always have to be it.
An online car show would be safe for the cars, Photoshop may be a slight problem for those not inclined to full disclosure of truth.
I have to say at this point in time that the world's top Bikini models wearing their work clothes are always loitering around and on my car whenever I take pics of it.
I ask in advance that all virtual car show judges please refrain from any thought suggesting that I would manipulate my photographic images to gain any advantage with my photo editing software that I know how to do that with.
Thank you
I always have to be it.
An online car show would be safe for the cars, Photoshop may be a slight problem for those not inclined to full disclosure of truth.
I have to say at this point in time that the world's top Bikini models wearing their work clothes are always loitering around and on my car whenever I take pics of it.
I ask in advance that all virtual car show judges please refrain from any thought suggesting that I would manipulate my photographic images to gain any advantage with my photo editing software that I know how to do that with.
Thank you
...
September 7th, 2009, 02:42 PM
#160
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Yeah, that's not the first Cutlass to get the stripes...
And again, it's your car, do what you want. My whole point was the irony that with the large number of 68s with the stripes at Seven Springs, NONE of the cars to be judged had them painted correctly.
And again, it's your car, do what you want. My whole point was the irony that with the large number of 68s with the stripes at Seven Springs, NONE of the cars to be judged had them painted correctly.
