joe_padavano

Went to the Nats on Friday for the day. I'll upload pictures when I can get a high speed connection. For now, it's time for my periodic ranting on 1968 W36 stripe cars. Admit it - now you're all just doing this to pizz me off.

Seriously, at least half the 68 442s on the showfield had W36 stripes painted on. EVERY SINGLE ONE was incorrect - a non-stripe car with the stripes added. Ironically, there WAS one original W36 stripe car on the showfield (the emblems were in the aft location) and this car DID NOT have the stripes painted on when the car was repainted.

Oh, there was one correct W36 car at the nationals, but unfortunately it was in the non-judging field.

I did have a good time, met some folks who had previously just been names on the screen, and look forward to next year in Sturbridge, MA. I'll have a car there, for sure.

TK-65

This was a beautiful heater delete car, why not try to get the stripe right?

MN71W30

I hear ya,
But they still look good. When I had my 68 W30 25 years ago the original stripes were still on the car. My friend has a 69 RT Coronet with a special stripe delete package so he left them off. I guess thier very rare but I'd be putting the stripe on the back of that Dodge if it were mine.

344870M

Just on a side note. This is why I believe absolute, numbers correct, concours restorers are important to our hobby. If we don't have people like Mr. Padavano (and others) to point out what is/isn't correct, who knows what kind of monstrosities will be paraded around as "classic" cars?

I was at the event today and saw several 68 442's. I thought they were correct. Why? Because I don't know anything about these cars. Now 1970 442's (for the most part) are another story. And this will lead me to another thread.

agtw31

wow,they are way off on the stripes.
this is a pic from one that was a year or 2 old.

152_740_481.jpg

IMG_2799.jpg

rocketraider

Then I won't even tell you what the POCI allows now. Yeah, might as well, just so you'll know what the GTO crowd has been up to.

For the last several years, POCI HAS ALLOWED ALTERED FISHER DATA PLATES TO BE PASSED OFF AS LEGITIMATE. It was done to "legitimize" options added cars and color/trim change cars. Meaning, so the frickin' GTO weenies can now pass off their altered cars as even higher dollar cars- never mind they're fakes. They are not clones. They are outright FAKES.

I severed a 23 year membership with POCI over that. I refuse to be part of any organization that gives its tacit approval to bastard cars- especially given the reason it was done.

Suffice to say I'm not too happy with the '09 OCA judging results either. There are a whole lot of cars and owners going home with first place awards that did not deserve them. I'm embarrassed to say the two classes I judged are among them. I was the engine guy, and I and the undercarriage/wheels guy were the only ones on that four-man team who judged their areas properly. The cars were nice, but no way did some of them have zero point deductions on their paint, interior, trunk and brightwork.

Yah, they tell us not to be overly critical, but if I have my car judged, I want to know its weak areas so I can correct them. If the car is judged by a different crew next time out, who does its task properly, there's gonna be some mad-*** owners around because they got a first this year and a second next year.

The show itself was good. But given the judging results, and a couple other things that happened, a 2009 OCA National Award is going to be severely diluted IMHO.

daves62

Joe please educate me
what is wrong with the stripe? is it too far forward?

TK-65

Do tell, dont leave us hanging.

Ive only been to two OCA nats, this year and last. Last year we were told to have all windows rolled up and hood/trunk closed. This year I do just that and am told to have hood and truck open or my car wouldnt be judged. One judge asked if 66 442s came with a rear sway bar, another asked if something on my 65 should be there when it was different on the 66 next to me.

Stuff like that was kinda odd. Seems like the judges should have a knowledge of the cars they judge. One of the nicest cars in my class had 10 things not correct underhood. OCA seems to prefer presentation over correctness. Believe me, I am not putting down someones effort or the time it takes to stage the event. I really dont care about the awards or who gets what. I just think the ease of judging doesnt make the restorers work harder to get their cars to as close to 100% correct as possible.

TK-65

The stripe runs into the lower wheel arch when added to a non stripe car. The 442 emblem on such car is higher on the fender and closer to the wheel. A real stripe car has the 442 centered on the fender and closer to the door.

344870M

Rocketraider - That's appalling. I understand some peoples concerns with the zealot-like mindset of the purist, but we do need someone to maintain a standard or the history of cars will be lost. Oldsmobile is dead. If we can't keep some form of preservation going, all is lost.

My car is nice. It is as correct as it can be with a factory service motor. It has been suggested to me that I just have the block restamped!! Ain't gonna happen.

MN71W30

I thought Pontiac kept good records of their cars so GTO's can easily be verified.

z11375ss

My car arrived at my door with the most absolute incorrect stripe you guys may see. I like it though and it will stay. Kind of like striping a Mustang or Camaro IMHO. I was telling some car guys at a party tonight about this exact subject. Funny thing. I know they moved the emblem back and showed them why. I thought it was so the stripe wouldn't go into the wheelwell. Right?
By z11375ss, shot with Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL XTi at 2008-05-08

z11375ss

Plus it's not even a 442, and check out the W-30 wheelwells. I like them. They are staying. Oh yeah, what about the fake "Ram Rod" decal. Damn, my list is longer than I thought!

daves62

thanks for the lesson
its easy to spot it when you know what your looking for

rocketraider

Don't get me started. As an OCA Zone director I pushed to get a formal judges' training program in place, with training and qualifications on specific carlines. It was like running up against a brick wall- the judging committee didn't want to hear about it (or anything else that would have put any work and responsibility on them), and then some of their number got really good at creating diversions that took priority over cleaning up our judging program. One in particular really should have pulled some jail time for some of the shyt he did. And that damn Keystone Kops judging video they did in the early 90s was an embarrassment to anyone who took their judging role seriously.

The performance classes generally have better and tighter judging than the others, by people who know something about the cars. Starfires and Toronados are the same way. But it's pretty obvious some judges are totally lacking in any knowledge of the car they're supposed to be critiquing to an as-built showroom standard. If it's pretty, they'll give it a first.

There was a 1967 Delta Custom Holiday Coupe that had made it to seniors with high-gloss black paint on everything underhood that is supposed to be black. Gorgeous car and one of my favorite Oldsmobiles, but sorry Charlie- the General did NOT make them that way. To my thinking, that car should never have made it to junior best of class with all that polished black underhood.

MN71W30- I guess these guys are counting on a prospective buyer not shelling out the cash to Pontiac Historical Services to document the car. Seems like I've heard Jim Mattison is kinda semi-retired now, and my money says when GM does away with Pontiac, PHS goes too. I think the altered data plate mess is borderline illegal, but it shows you what lengths people will go to, to legitimize what they've created.

ent72olds

Interesting stuff....and I was embarrassed so I didn't enter my car in the judging! Not sure what class I would have fallen into anyway, but being it was my first Nats, I learned quite a bit! Rocketraider, TK, and Padavano, I wish I could have met you guys while I was there....I saw(at least I think it was?) TK-65's 442 coming in on a trailer, and I believe when it was pouring rain, leave(correct me if I'm wrong)....with the family, (I was dragging 2 little girls around) it was hard to get by and see it in person! Hopefully next year! I drove almost 500 miles each way in my car('65 Vista), with baby seats, luggage, and home with a ton of parts. except for the roof and lft side qtr and fender, car is all original(dings and scratches and all), if they had a driver class I would have entered judging, but I guess this year, the club decided not to have that type of class. I read in the rule sheet, it was optional and up to hosting club. All in all, except for the rain, a great 3 days for us. Oh, sorry for hijacking the thread Joe...

agtw31

i remember your car.

wasnt your car on ebay for years,previous owner asking some really stupid price for it?

are is that you?

agtw31

Pontiac guys rebodying and re tagging cars is nothing new.

heck,you can buy blank vin and data tags,and get them stamped by a guy that rebodies COPO Camaros.

that is why POCI is a joke,just like the OCA.

at least the POCI acts like they take it seriously.OCA needs to coordinate with judging for future meets,instead of taking the first joe blow member that volunteers.

ive seen some 442's take 1st and 2nd at OCA meets before,and their cars were not even show quality.they were drivers,with holley carbs,headers and aftermarket crap all over them..

but GM guys have nothing on the Mopar crowd and the COPO Camaro and Z/28 crowd.

go to the Moparnationals,and youll see so many blatant tag swaps,it's funny.

i know of several Hemi Cudas from Georgia that were originally 318 cars back in the 80's,and one sold at B-J 4 years ago,and i just laughed.

most of the real Hemi cars and COPO Camaros are long gone,they are in warehouses in Japan and the Arab Emirates,and Long Island.

TK-65

My dad and I were planning on leaving Friday anyway, when it started to sprinkle it made us leave earlier. There was a huge swap meet here on Saturday and my niece is getting baptized today so I had to get back.

Dont ever be embarrassed. Take pride in your car and always have fun with it. Many of those show cars are not driven very often, if ever. Next one I build is going to be a driver. They are a lot more fun to own.

TK-65

Underhood seems to be the area with the most variation. I added the A/C only fan shroud to my car. I thought about removing it for the show but figured no judge would know it was not supposed to be there.

rocketraider

Erik, were you the guy with the dark teal 65 VC with Torque Thrusts? and a tattoo on your elbow? If it was, saw you and the car and the girls several times. I went thru the dispaly area Friday after the rain and was gonna compliment you on the car but you were talking with a couple other folks at the time.

Got to meet Joe P and W-machines (Kurt) briefly and I'm sure there were plenty of you there I'd have liked to put a face with a screen name. We should have come up with a way to ID ourselves before we all went...

rocketraider

Yup. But now you have a major marque club sanctioning the practice and that throws the ethics of it into a whole new arena. It's unethical any way you paint it, but there are plenty of unprincipled, unscrupulous, unethical people who don't care about anything but making money and don't care who they screw to do it.

Reminds me of the indulgences the Catholic Church used to pass out in the late Middle Ages to certain "people of influence"- kings, queens, other nobility... sometimes the indulgences let these people literally get away with murder.

z11375ss

I bought my car from a guy on Long Island. And if you ask my better half, yeah, I did pay stupid money for it! As far as I know it wasn't on evilbay. It is for sale for REALLY stupid money.

ent72olds

Yes, that was me, thanks for the compliment, I would have loved to pick your brain some. Always good to meet knowlegable Olds people. Would have been nice to meet Kurt and Aron Nance too....

ent72olds

Well, didn't you know, anything on Long Island is worth much more than what it should be....except my stuff of course! I see it here all the time!

z11375ss

Dropped a friend at the train this morn and they were setting up a car show. One Olds. A 75 Delta 88 droptop. A real beaty. That was it though. No Cutlasses. No side stripe on the Delta either. I asked him why he didn't have one. JK Hang on to your cars guys. Everyone's got a Chevy!

wmachine

Been busy, but want to take a moment to pipe in here now.
Glenn (rocketraider), it was quite a pleasure to meet you and I wish we had more time together to discuss things like judging. Joe P and Erik, and Jason, I'm sorry I didn't get the chance to meet you. I did meet a lot of old friends and new ones, and the wife and I enjoyed ourselves immensely. When I have a little more time I'll address Glenn's disturbing news.

joe_padavano

I saw your car - very nice. My first car was a VC and I've always liked them. The wheels and the color are a real eyecatching combo. I fact I watched you drive off Friday afternoon between the raindrops. I left about 3:30, and by the time I got to Somerset the sun was out again.

ent72olds

Thank you for the compliment, wish we could've met!

agtw31

didnt this 68 442 with the "wrong" stripes win it's class?

olds68

Yes, the white 68 442 with the incorrect stripe won best of class. I know because I was parked alongside him. Some incorrect items on the car but it was beautiful never the less. I hope the statement about a phony Ram-Rod decal wasn't aimed at me. Ed Konsomo (OCA VP) approached us about having a judge training session prior to the Friday judging next year in Sturbridge. Any thoughts on that? At any rate, it's great just to see all them Oldsmobiles together. And a little rain never hurt anyone.

wmachine

I presume this was the BOC car? The trim rings look like the new repops they have, but they're not totally correct. Somehow, I missed getting a really good look at that car.
But the thing that jumps out at me is that unless the pic is an illusion, that is not a Sports Coupe, which is a post car.

Never the less, none of these details are anywheres near enough to prevent the car from getting enough points to be best in class. It is no indication of poor judging.

67 Cutlass

Don't mean to hijack here but after reading this thread all I want to know is when is the Sturbridge, MA show going to be? Where in Sturbridge? I can't be more than an 1 1/2 hours from there

Wish I had more expertise on correctness for Oldsmobiles.

Wmachine is right, where's the post on the 'Sports Coupe'?

StickW31

Hi Joe,

As a fellow Old's enthusiast, I respect your recent constructive criticism on the white '68 442, heater delete car you saw at the 09' Old's Nationals. I also attended the Old's Nationals and had a chance to completely go over that particular car. I was amazed by the overall consideration of detail given by that owner.

It seems that you could have compared the pro's and con's on that entire vehicle and really complimented the owner on his due diligence overall on such a rare Old's 442. When is the last time we've seen a frame off numbers matching 4 speed heater delete 442 with 20 plus options done the right way from: body, paint, undercarriage, mechanicals, and accessories?

It was a real treat to have the opportunity to look this nice example of a 68 442 as a fellow Old's enthusiast.

-Steve

StickW31

OCA Nationals 2010

follow link:

http://www.neolds.com/2010.html

olds68

Ditto what Steve said
As far as 2010 Olds Nationals, I am the co chair if you have any questions.

joe_padavano

Steve,

First, I did not single out or even mention the white car in this thread. Up to this point, all my comments pertained to all the 1968 cars at the show.

Second, without a build sheet or other documentation, I am always very skeptical of high-option, frame-off cars. While I have no first-hand knowledge of this particular car (and thus cannot comment on it directly), the trend in the hobby is to load up on options during the resto, which really dilutes the value of a "highly optioned" car (as well as raising questions about authenticity). Rarely do you see a stripper frame-off car.

And to bring this thread back to the point, WHY OH WHY does everyone need to add W-36 stripes to cars that did not come with them? It is so obvious that the stripes are not factory. In this particular case there were very large dollars spent on the car, yet this one small but highly obvious detail is wrong and obviously not original. Again, while I have no knowledge of this particular car other than what I can see with my eyes, the fact remains that since these stripes were obviously added during the resto, what else was also changed during the resto?

In a similar vein, "W-30" cars with obviously repro red inner fenders also make me skeptical. While the trained eye can tell the repop inners from originals, at the Nats, when they were parked side-by-side, the repops were painfully obvious to even the casual observer. There are two quality levels on the repop inner fenders. The better ones are close but details are still not as sharp as on OEM parts. The poorer ones look like they were badly made on an old Vac-U-Form (yes, I am now dating myself). In either case, it brings authenticity of the car into question.

The 1970 "W-31" with A/C and power brakes was also, ah, interesting.

ent72olds

Joe, I totally get your point on the w36 stripes...as to the w-31, would that be the nugget gold one?

rocketraider

You have my sincere sympathy.

Glenn Williamson
Rocketraider
1995 OCA National Meet Chairman, Greensboro NC


You'll do fine!

As far as a judges' training session that is something that is LONG overdue. I don't see where it can be done in an hour before Friday judging either. Needs to be a Thursday activity and probably best done Thursday evening. Make attendance by any less than a Master Judge a REQUIREMENT before turning anyone loose on the showfield to judge cars.

Me and that judging program have long been at odds.

olds68

Glenn,
Thanks for the positive feedback on the judges training session. We would probably do it later on Thursday and it would last 1-2 hours. This would be a first but might be long overdue. I welcome other's feedback on this