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Hey Oldsmobile guru’s
try this with your numbers and see if you get what I get just in different #. I’m curious if it works the same on your ride. Please nothing to loose I just want to clear up the noise
Numerology is absolutely not a thing in car plants. You've found out that two numbers subtracted from each other equal the same two numbers subtracted from each other plus a third number then minus the third number.
We've got a couple guys that work transmission plants here. I think I'm the only vehicle plant guy. My company allied with GM for their first plant, so they basically use the same thing that was used in Lansing and other GM plants. I will do a brief explanation of the four relevant numbers here.
Assembly sequence number: this is a three digit number that counts up to 999 and resets to 000. Every car in the Final Assembly shop would have a sequence number, and it had nothing to do with what kind of car it was, just that it was behind the car with one lower number, and in front of the car with one higher. This number means absolutely nothing when the car leaves, and it's not on the car at all.
Body number: nowadays, it is stamped on the core support. Back then, it was on the certification tag on the cowl. That means a serial number of that particular body style. This was the order in which the car body was made in body weld. At this point, the body shell is a part and is not legally a car.
VIN: this is a federal number of a code meaning motor company and/or division, the body style, the year, the plant, sometimes the engine used, and then a serial. VINs are assigned at insertion to final assembly. They came on carts from Fisher body to Lansing, and, in my OEM, they get lifted from the paint shop. In my plants, the servers see the body lifted from paint, associate the body number with the VIN it is now getting, give it an assembly sequence number, and send all that data to the Assembly Vehicle Information streams, including sending one stream right to some printers that I installed upgraded versions thereof to make the VIN and certification label (CR) which is the first thing they get in assembly.
The engine has a production code which is a serial and it may incorporate some other factors as well, like it could be a serial for that type of engine, or all engines off that line. I am not a powertrain expert.
The takeaway from all this is the following: There is only a casual relationship between body number and VIN. It will not always be 1547, or always be anything. I will explain. Each shop has, as their customer, the next shop. Bodyweld does not care what order the car comes off the line. Bodyweld made the cars in order. Paint, if I recall correctly, painted in color batches back then, like some yellows, then some reds, then some blues. Nowadays the robots just grab different cartridges. So, while body number will trend with vin, there will always be the occasional out of order body due to production patterns, or, occasionally, a body is damaged and scrapped, so the body number ticks up one, but the VIN does not.
Bonus theory, this will get a little abstract. As we know, Fisher got all the data for the body, what color it was, what holes it needed, what interior it got. This got stamped on the car's cowl tag and riveted on somewhere in weld. They might not know what VIN it would get (as in, when it went to the assembly shop), but they knew, from the start, what car it would be. This means that, if that car got destroyed, they'd have to start over from the beginning. In my OEM, the body is irrelevant to most options other than the roof type, moonroof, pano roof, solid roof. Once it gets through paint, it now has a color, but it is still a moonroof car of this model that is red, it is not a specific ordered car yet. Only when it gets selected to go to assembly does it become a specific car. So, to sum that up, the Lansing way was you knew what car it was that was going to be your new car, but not the VIN, until it got to assembly, and in the modern way, you know what VIN you car will have, but you don't know which car it will be assigned to until it is selected for going to assembly. It's a difference in operating philosophy of when the car becomes a specific order, as opposed to just an available part. This was probably extremely boring to any non-manufacturing people out there.
Numerology is absolutely not a thing in car plants. You've found out that two numbers subtracted from each other equal the same two numbers subtracted from each other plus a third number then minus the third number.
We've got a couple guys that work transmission plants here. I think I'm the only vehicle plant guy. My company allied with GM for their first plant, so they basically use the same thing that was used in Lansing and other GM plants. I will do a brief explanation of the four relevant numbers here.
Assembly sequence number: this is a three digit number that counts up to 999 and resets to 000. Every car in the Final Assembly shop would have a sequence number, and it had nothing to do with what kind of car it was, just that it was behind the car with one lower number, and in front of the car with one higher. This number means absolutely nothing when the car leaves, and it's not on the car at all.
Body number: nowadays, it is stamped on the core support. Back then, it was on the certification tag on the cowl. That means a serial number of that particular body style. This was the order in which the car body was made in body weld. At this point, the body shell is a part and is not legally a car.
VIN: this is a federal number of a code meaning motor company and/or division, the body style, the year, the plant, sometimes the engine used, and then a serial. VINs are assigned at insertion to final assembly. They came on carts from Fisher body to Lansing, and, in my OEM, they get lifted from the paint shop. In my plants, the servers see the body lifted from paint, associate the body number with the VIN it is now getting, give it an assembly sequence number, and send all that data to the Assembly Vehicle Information streams, including sending one stream right to some printers that I installed upgraded versions thereof to make the VIN and certification label (CR) which is the first thing they get in assembly.
The engine has a production code which is a serial and it may incorporate some other factors as well, like it could be a serial for that type of engine, or all engines off that line. I am not a powertrain expert.
The takeaway from all this is the following: There is only a casual relationship between body number and VIN. It will not always be 1547, or always be anything. I will explain. Each shop has, as their customer, the next shop. Bodyweld does not care what order the car comes off the line. Bodyweld made the cars in order. Paint, if I recall correctly, painted in color batches back then, like some yellows, then some reds, then some blues. Nowadays the robots just grab different cartridges. So, while body number will trend with vin, there will always be the occasional out of order body due to production patterns, or, occasionally, a body is damaged and scrapped, so the body number ticks up one, but the VIN does not.
Bonus theory, this will get a little abstract. As we know, Fisher got all the data for the body, what color it was, what holes it needed, what interior it got. This got stamped on the car's cowl tag and riveted on somewhere in weld. They might not know what VIN it would get (as in, when it went to the assembly shop), but they knew, from the start, what car it would be. This means that, if that car got destroyed, they'd have to start over from the beginning. In my OEM, the body is irrelevant to most options other than the roof type, moonroof, pano roof, solid roof. Once it gets through paint, it now has a color, but it is still a moonroof car of this model that is red, it is not a specific ordered car yet. Only when it gets selected to go to assembly does it become a specific car. So, to sum that up, the Lansing way was you knew what car it was that was going to be your new car, but not the VIN, until it got to assembly, and in the modern way, you know what VIN you car will have, but you don't know which car it will be assigned to until it is selected for going to assembly. It's a difference in operating philosophy of when the car becomes a specific order, as opposed to just an available part. This was probably extremely boring to any non-manufacturing people out there.
Thanks I appreciate the feedback and I do understand that olds realize they have needed to improve the identification of vehicles due to the fact of increasing production during the mid 70s
thanks again
From what I'm understanding, the transmission (225486) matches the VIN, so its original to the car, but the engine (115959) isn't?
Ok.
Yes this is what I’m trying to clear up the problem with !
so I got this book called a service manual for Oldsmobile and it clearly states that the # on the oil fill tube indicates what engine is what ok that’s fine.
so if you look at the math I did on the white paper in first photo! I can do the addition and subtraction and not in a complicated way I get my oil fill number that is on the engine.
Something is very strange about that whole situation! You explain how that could happen if the stamping “ Should “ always match the last # of the vin.
All I know is that the only true way to know is if there was some way of getting the copy of final documents from federal government with the vins of all Oldsmobile products from the 60s because we all know the world was a different place and I remember sitting in the office listening to my babysitter making last minute changes on vehicle orders with GM themselves and I had to be very quiet in the background because it was always very important calls dealerships had graces periods to make changes to orders for customers!
Ok.
so if you look at the math I did on the white paper in first photo! I can do the addition and subtraction and not in a complicated way I get my oil fill number that is on the engine.
Please share the formula that you use to get the oil fill tube number. Then some of us can check to see if you have something or not.
The first problem I see is "Engine part sequence # 115959 ( Stamping on drivers font flat) last Six" If this is the stamping located on the pad as shown below then the last 6 digits should match the VIN.
The first problem I see is "Engine part sequence # 115959 ( Stamping on drivers font flat) last Six" If this is the stamping located on the pad as shown below then the last 6 digits should match the VIN.
yes I see the problem as well but I keep going down rabbit hole after holes with this for some strange reason. Explain to me why I subtract that no. From the vin or body no. And add both answers take that number and add back into the EPN. And get my oil fill no. Completely baffles me! Something is going on here?
It’s funny that I just looked through this sight and found a post
2023 of clearly posted pictures of an engine part number stamped upside down on the front pad. ? I thought hmmm people told this guy that was legit! Upside down light stamping and wrong size as well holy sh*%!
Numbers match yes but not correct !
yes I see the problem as well but I keep going down rabbit hole after holes with this for some strange reason. Explain to me why I subtract that no. From the vin or body no. And add both answers take that number and add back into the EPN. And get my oil fill no. Completely baffles me! Something is going on here?
See earlier point. You have found out that your body number and your VIN are the same number apart by two different ways.
Engine vin derivatives can be upside down, and they can be lightly stamped. They can even be done in pairs instead of ganged. Lots of things happened. In a production environment, getting cars out the door while maintaining quality and not hurting people is the goal. Things that met standard were used, so, if the vin gang stamper went down, people did them by hand to keep the line going. I will bet there was no quality standard on the VIN derivative other than legible, so they are going to be all over the place and each one was considered ok as long as it could be read.
The important thing here is for you to find out if your vin derivative on the block and transmission matches the full vin on the car, and then be at peace.
See earlier point. You have found out that your body number and your VIN are the same number apart by two different ways.
Engine vin derivatives can be upside down, and they can be lightly stamped. They can even be done in pairs instead of ganged. Lots of things happened. In a production environment, getting cars out the door while maintaining quality and not hurting people is the goal. Things that met standard were used, so, if the vin gang stamper went down, people did them by hand to keep the line going. I will bet there was no quality standard on the VIN derivative other than legible, so they are going to be all over the place and each one was considered ok as long as it could be read.
The important thing here is for you to find out if your vin derivative on the block and transmission matches the full vin on the car, and then be at peace.
Understood.
And I also understand my car also has the wrong engine as well. Correct transmission. Under the driver side door on my frame I have a clearly marked 20 stamped and from my understanding that should be a sequence number as well. Are you able to tell me anything about that.
Perhaps your car has a non-original engine. Please post a picture of the vin tag on the dash and the vin derivative on the block, as well as the transmission. This is what matters. Please attempt to act on the help we are giving you.
A 20 on your frame is of lesser importance. It would not be any kind of "sequence number." Again, the ONLY sequence number is a meaningless 000-999 assigned to a car going through the shop. The frame, in that location, has the same vin derivative as other major assemblies, The 20 you are seeing is probably part of a manufacture date for the frame. The VIN derivative should be next to it.
This is the car I’m trying to get the information for.
as I know the car has the wrong engine engine.
trans is correct for the car
OG Th400
R2 rear end with open diff
how do I tell if this is a standard 442
or W-30/32 option without the correct engine
as far as I’m aware you could get these options without ram air scoops. And this car has no red wheel wells so please correct me if I’m incorrect and misunderstanding thanks.
I believe the build sheet showing the W30/32 option is the only valid way unless you also have original sale documents for the car.
You can be pretty sure it's not a W car or they would be asking way more than $5500.
Unless you're really good at restoration, you should pass on this car. It's going to take a boatload of time and money to revive what is essentially a parts car. I love in the northeast so I've seen my share of rust, every piece of metal on that car needs work.
This is the car I’m trying to get the information for.
as I know the car has the wrong engine engine.
trans is correct for the car
OG Th400
R2 rear end with open diff
how do I tell if this is a standard 442
or W-30/32 option without the correct engine
as far as I’m aware you could get these options without ram air scoops. And this car has no red wheel wells so please correct me if I’m incorrect and misunderstanding thanks.
Not seeing the vin derivative engine block stamp like requested anywhere. I would leave this car behind. You will be putting $70k of work and parts into a $40k car when done.
Some rules for buying collector cars.
1. Always buy something that either needs no work, or needs little enough work that you can at least break even when you are done with a hypothetical sales price versus what you have in it. Getting a good deal on a project AND being able to do work yourself / have some parts already factors in.
2. If you can't afford to do #1, save money until you can. Do not buy something that will put you underwater when you can't afford much, don't have any parts already, and/or can't do the work yourself.
This is the car I’m trying to get the information for. I know the car has the wrong engine. Trans is correct for the car -- OG TH400.
R2 rear end with open diff. How do I tell if this is a standard 442 or W-30/32 option without the correct engine? As far as I’m aware you could get these options without ram air scoops. And this car has no red wheel wells so please correct me if I’m incorrect and misunderstanding thanks.
What makes you think there's any chance it could be a W-30/32? It has none of the requisite equipment and apparently no paperwork to substantiate the claim.
BTW, W-30/32 with scoop/duct delete was not a thing.
Not seeing the vin derivative engine block stamp like requested anywhere. I would leave this car behind. You will be putting $70k of work and parts into a $40k car when done.
Some rules for buying collector cars.
1. Always buy something that either needs no work, or needs little enough work that you can at least break even when you are done with a hypothetical sales price versus what you have in it. Getting a good deal on a project AND being able to do work yourself / have some parts already factors in.
2. If you can't afford to do #1, save money until you can. Do not buy something that will put you underwater when you can't afford much, don't have any parts already, and/or can't do the work yourself.
I just do this for a hobby I find them get them running and driving for something to do. Don’t need money actually just wanting to get back what I have into the old girl. And let someone else enjoy the roadkill. That’s all I have a cool project I can use this car for anyway.
Fun times bench racing !
