at3reg98

This has been driving me nuts since I put the new belt on a few weeks ago. On my 307 the alternator belt slips on the drive pulley for about five seconds after I start the car. I've meticulously cleaned (brake cleaner, paint stripper, lacquer thinner)and scuffed the groove with 180 then 150 grit, tried a different belt, and had it as tight as it could go with no play at all in the belt and it still slipped and squealed. I can also get it to happen if I turn the blower on high and try to use the windows. Even tried swapping back the old alternator and still had the problem.
My question is, do belts have to be broken in? I had no problem with the power steering or air pump belts and they are looser than the alt. I used Dayco and ACdelco belts too so no cheapies. Everything looks like it's aligned properly too so no bent brackets as far as I know. Any ideas!?

joe_padavano

How do you know it's the alternator?

455man

Something is not right there. Does not seem to be the belt or alternator since you've eliminated those. Maybe water pump bearing squealing? Are you using a pry bar when tightening the alt belt? Belts dont need to be broken in.

at3reg98

I know it's the alternator as I ran the car briefly without the belt and nothing else made noise. Nothing else has a load on it. I've been reading other posts and it seems the power steering and a/c belts need to be tensioned just right to prevent this, something about alignment so I'm going to try that next and hope for the best.

stellar

Does your power steering belt drive the alt belt? If so tighten it.

at3reg98

That's a separate belt on this motor.

joe_padavano

Is the the configuration where the alt belt just goes to the water pump? Have you verified the sheave on the water pump isn't glazed? Have you verified that the alternator bearing isn't going bad? I've had alternators that squealed until the grease in the bearing heated up and flowed a little.

OK, in rereading your post, I see that this happens with both alternators. Check the water pump pulley. Also, do you have the old belt? It's possible that you got a defective belt.

stellar

If it was the same belt, the crank would be driving the alt belt. Since it is a separate belt, does the alt belt also go around the crank pulley? If not then the PS pump is driving the alt belt. If the PS belt is loose, it will not drive the alt properly. Try this. With the engine not running, grab the alt fan and try to turn the pulley, making the belt rotate the engine. This should tell what is slipping. If all the belts are tight the crank should start to rotate. If a belt is loose you will see what need to be tightened.

Oldsmaniac

Maybe a picture of your bet setup would help. In the past some have had the belts on the wrong pulleys or have them installed wrong. Others did not loosen all the bolts and could not get the belt tight enough. Scuffing all pulleys, a new belt, proper alignment and installation should solve the problem. I have found after time the belts need to be made super tight to eliminate this problem. This is prob due to worn pulleys that have a slightly worn taper and dont mate with the belt properly.

rocketraider

83 307 belts:

A/C belt is at the rear of the crank pulley. Goes around crank pulley and A/C pulley only.

Water pump & PS belt go around crank pulley, water pump pulley and PS pulley.

Alternator belt goes around water pump pulley and alternator pulley.

My experience is that the alternator bracketry on these engines is a shytty design- I have never been able to get enough tension on one of these alt belts with a pry bar to keep it from squealing. I have a pulley spreader that I use to tension it. It's clumsy to use unless you take the radiator top shroud off, but is the only thing I've found that can tighten that belt enough to stop the squealing.

It squalls when you operate high blower and windows because you've put a large electrical load on it, effectively slowing it below belt/engine speed. The belt is trying to overcome the torque load you've put on the alternator.

Lady72nRob71

I would try a different brand of belt, preferably one that looks different, meaning it was made with different tooling. Name brands do not relate with quality level anymore.
I have not had the best luck with these new-style "cogged" looking belts, either.

OLD SKL 69

I had a similar problem with my 85 Riviera with the same engine in it. My alternator and power steering pump belts were both sqealing. I bought new Good Year belts and both were the cogged type. Correct ones for the engine but the alternator belt did not sit all the way down in the alternator pulley. I got another one that was not cogged (Gates) and also got the next width size smaller. It fit into the grooves better and it got rid of the squealing as well. Check to see if your belt is sitting flush with the pulley. Also, the Gates belts were definitely of better quality.

MDchanic

Good point.

I try to avoid advising people with original configurations to use non-original belts, since if you need a non-original belt, there's probably something else wrong somewhere, but in this case, why not try the next smaller length belt (probably 1" shorter).
You may have to pop it onto the pulley with a screwdriver, but it may do the job better.
I am under the impression that the belt configuration on those models was very trouble-prone.

- Eric

jcdynamic88

this alternator is driven by the p/s belt and the a/c belt because the alt only runs off the waterpump pulley,its usually the p/s belt thats not tight enough but ive seen cars with the a/c belt off because of a bad compressor or it didnt work so the belt was left off and the p/s belt just couldnt drive the pump and the alt too.jc

at3reg98

I see what you guys are saying now, wow I completely missed that ! It might just be that power steering belt. I have the pump as far left as it can go to get tension on the belt but it's still slack enough to where I can turn the water pump pulley by hand and it slips (when alt belt is removed). I have a different brand on order and will try that, I sure hope it's the problem here.

stellar

You got it now. The PS belt is sometimes hard to get one with a proper fit meaning length AND width. It may take a couple of tries. Also be sure to retighten belts after running for awhile. A new belt will give some initial stretch. Usually after the second tightening after the initial stretch it will maintain tension for an extended time period.

stellar

I despise the cogged belts weather they are V or serpentine style. I install a lot of belts on my job and I have found the cogged style to be inferior in both performance and durability. I had a used car dealer bring me a high end SUV and wanted me to change the alternator bearings. I informed him it was a belt noise and not a bearing. He said he had it to two different mechanic shops and both said it was an alternator bearing. One of them had already installed a new belt (cogged). He insisted I change the bearings, so I did and the noise remained. He finally agreed to a new belt with a good bit of doubt about my work and my diagnosis. 15 minutes and a new quality belt later the noise was gone. He was then angry about the bill for alternator removal and bearings and alt installation and wanted to only pay for the belt and wanted the belt I replaced which I would never use anyway. I told him he insisted I change the bearings and he shouldn't be upset with me but rather he should be looking at the two previous repair shops. He now brings me a lot of work, but I still don't like the cogged belts.

joe_padavano

It ALWAYS comes back to the PS pump belt...

Few people know how to properly tension the PS pump belt. There are THREE fasteners that you need to loosen to adjust the belt, the two bolts on the front and the one nut at the bottom rear of the pump. Once you loosen all three, use a large screwdriver as a pry bar and insert it between the nose of the pump and the tab on the bracket, between the pulley and the bracket. The photo shows the proper position of the screwdriver with the pulley removed for clarity. Use the screwdriver to tension the belt while tightening the two bolts on the front, then get the nut on the back. Failure to do this properly is why there are frequent posts about belts squealing.

at3reg98

Yep it's definitely that belt. The stupid one I have on it is too long and can't be tightened any further. When I turn the alt and water pump opposite directions there's no slippage from either but that p/s belt slides right around it. Never would've guessed that as it barely slips when I turn the wheel to full lock.

Thanks for that shot there Joe I didn't even know there was a tab under there. Read the svc manual several times but wasn't clear (sounded a little hokey to just pry against it with a screwdriver)and I didn't want to puncture the pump housing. Would you happen to know the sequence for the alternator to bracket bolts? You probably know about the two adjustable ones under it and I never was sure which should be tightened first, front or rear, or if it even matters.

rocketraider

Great pic Joe, but show us how to tighten the PS belt properly with that big clunky aluminum alternator bracket in the way. Impossible to get a prybar in there without removing it. I swear at my wagon every time I have to do anything around those belts.

I have an A/C compressor bearing grinding and I really do hate the prospect of doing anything there. Makes no sense to change the compressor without changing the belt, and all the other belts have to come off to change that one. Meaning half a day's aggravation fooling with it. If I farm out the job I'll have to deal with people who aren't smart enough to figure out to just use the same belt # that's already on the car and will try their damnedest to order and install belts by the VIN for the Diesel.

Had to deal with one on an oil change awhile back. I told him to get an oil filter for an 83 Olds 5.0 litre and he'd be fine. Even after being told twice it was an Olds engine he was determined that car had a Chevrolet 305 in it and kept asking if I was sure because that filter wouldn't fit. I finally said get an oil filter for a 1974 Olds gas 350 and if he couldn't handle that to put the old one back on and I would handle it myself. I thought the tow truck driver was going to wet his pants.

I've used that Exxon station for oil changes for years to avoid having to dispose of oil, but as long as that lummox is doing oil changes, no more.

joe_padavano

Guess I got lucky, Glenn. One of my large Craftsman screwdrivers is exactly the right length to fit in there and the handle ends up below the alternator. It's not the easiest thing in the world to do, but I can get enough leverage on it to tension the belt. Of course the pulley always moves just enough to make it difficult to get the socket on the adjusting bolt. I try to put the socket in place before tensioning, but memory was the second thing to go, and I can't remember the first.

BADDA BING!

jcdynamic88

i think when ordering parts for the olds 307 engine you are better off using the "y" engine code instead of saying its an olds engine.they are both 5 litre and you could find either plant in either brand in some years.i dont think the computer screen at the parts store says chevy or olds next to 5.0 litre.

rocketraider

The car still has the N code in the VIN. It was a Diesel that, like so many, broke its crank with less than 50k on the Diesel engine. It's had a gas 350 in it since at least 1989.

Believe me, you don't really want to go there with a Diesel that was converted to gas. They try to order stuff by the VIN engine code, it always comes back wrong. Combine that with someone who doesn't have common sense enough to just use the same thing that's currently on the car, and you end up with a pissed-off 'Raider who has suddenly been thrown an hour behind schedule because of someone's incompetence.

jcdynamic88

i missed that detail about a conversion from deisel,i know what thats like ,ive bought converted and sold no less than a hundred deisels,chevys,pontiacs,olds 88s,98s,cutlasses, thru the 80s,try ordering belts for one with a 455 in its place.you do have to manipulate the system.jc

joe_padavano

Yet another reason why no one but me touches my vehicles.

MDchanic

+1.

... And this from a guy who just spent a weekend on his back, replacing a rusted leaf spring hanger on his pickup.

- Eric

at3reg98

This is why I hate the NYS inspections. Not only is it a hassle just to get there or wait around but some shops just have to mess with the car. If I could do that and replace the tires myself I'd never set foot in a shop.

MDchanic

You need to find a different inspection station.

When I lived in NY, I'd just go by the station and my buddy would hand me a sticker.

Here in Maine, the station can actually get in trouble if you have an accident later in the year, and it looks to the cops like the car has more rust underneath than it could have developed since the inspection, so the guy at least has to make a show of it.
NYS doesn't even care about rust.

By my count, 11 states, plus DC, no longer require safety inspections, and, as far as I'm concerned, this is a waste of taxpayer money (and time) that some political party could really make hay by opposing.

Now, for emissions, it's a whole other ball game, but antiques are exempt from emissions in NY and most other states.

- Eric

joe_padavano

Which is why I bought a rim clamp tire machine and a Hunter 700 balancer.

No more having tire shop B.S. "oh, sorry, we can only sell you FOUR tires at once because of your ABS/AWD..."

rocketraider

You can thank the product liability lawyers for that one...

I don't have the luxury of meaningful time off anymore to tend to my vehicles as I like to- hence my sig line. Sometimes I find myself having to use someone else. If I can't do it meself, I like to take them over to the community college auto tech school because the instructor there is a top-notch mechanic and expects nothing short of their best from his students. Plus he was an Olds Zone rep before taking the CC teaching gig. He was under a real possibility of getting moved to Lansing and most of the Zone folks would tell you they wanted no part of home office. My old auto tech instructor retired in 1991 and Bill applied for and got the job.

joe_padavano

Yeah, but the sales people haven't pushed back on it, either...

Good news is that you can frequently find ads for "three good tires" on Craigslist.

1970cs

Yea probably the same B.S. I got from Discount when I wanted a change sizes on my Black Alero GLS to a P205-55-16. " You can't change tire size, it will ruin your handling" My reply was but it's OK to sell the young fellers 20"+wheels and tires for $2500.

Pat

at3reg98

This sounds like the BS I had once when I stopped by a shop that had a sign out for "No appt necessary" for inspections. I figured since my Caprice was obviously an enthusiast-owned car they wouldn't try any crap and it wouldn't take long. Had the loose change stolen from inside, a wire wheel fly off when I left and stuck with these crap wipers since theey chucked the bare aluminum-framed originals the car had. It ended up costing me $60 by the time it was done, which had to be at least two hours later. I don't know how you can find a decent shop without your car suffering or getting hassled.

Then there was another time I had it in another place for a knock the engine had- I couldn't tell if it was a lifter or the block itself and was beyond my skills to diagnose/fix. It sat at that shop for a month. I called each week and the owner would act like I was bothering him!

My last experience was when I dropped off a couple rims and asked if he could change the tires by the end of the day (regular rims, tires dropped off with them). I got the excuse, "I don't know, some people have some strange rims." It did get done however..