Oldracerjones

I've searched the forums and have seen several threads mentioning HEI but really no pro/con debate. I'm thinking of switching over. Any thoughts?

oldstata

Basically there is no gain in hei unless it's higher performance motor from my understanding .

I find it easier to change module and coil instead buying a dwell meter and adjusting points as I have heard that alot of guys prefer points over hei

MDchanic

You're kidding, right?

This has been discussed and "debated" so many times here that I think most, if not all of us are sick of it.
It's like "Groundhog Day."

I've personally put my 2¢ into more threads than I can remember.

Here is my, very condensed, input (someone else may choose to find and post links to the depressingly repetitive discussions we've already seen):

If you have a stock, or near-stock, engine, HEI will provide no performance benefit over a stock points setup.
It will, however, allow you to neglect maintenance, which was its original purpose.
If you are considering HEI, be advised that there are also aftermarket electronic setups (such as Pertronix and Crane) that give you electronic ignition, but allow you to keep your distributor, for reasons of æsthetics, maintaining stock curves, or not needing to bash your air cleaner with a sledgehammer.

- Eric

Screecher

I went ahead and changed out my points and condenser with a Pertronix pickup. Easy to install and works great with your original distributor. I agree with the rest, HEI isn't going to give you any significant performance advantage.

Oldracerjones

Eric, I appreciate you taking the time to answer. I read about 90 threads between yesterday and today and found more in your answer than all of them together. Maybe I searched the wrong forums, but I'm glad you answered.

oldcutlass

The one main advantage is you can set your initial timing a bit higher. A bit of a hotter spark.

Sugar Bear

There is a potential for loss of performance by installing HEI because of the difference in the ignition timing advance curve. Yes you will get a higher voltage spark but not at the proper time. To convert accurately, the HEI distributor curve should mimic the advance curve of the proper distributor for the engine. How many HEI conversions actually get recurved and dialed in?

Of those old enough to remember how well some of the cars ran with points and condenser, most would probably not make the conversion to HEI.

oldcutlass

Sorry I beg to differ, a points distributor needs to be messaged also to get some performance. Just look at the factory total timing settings.

RetroRanger

Moroso sells a kit w springs and weights to taylor your hei curve. additionally you will probably want to play w the vac advance as well. so hei + mech adv+vac adv+ aircleaner.

next time i plan to get the crane kit because

built in rev limiter
stock mechanical curve
stock vac advance
stock distributor size.
stock aircleaner

as eric pointed out the hei can hit your aircleaner depending on what your running

oldstata

Copper cutlass has talked about how he did change the weights and springs in a eBay special and has worked well in his dad's car for a few years I think.

I think it really depends on generation and what your comfortable learning and taking on anything is possible if your willing to learn to understand and make mistake while learning

nsnarsk65cutlass

Hei for me especially an oe one,the benefits of hotter spark and no point wear out weights the maintence of points.Spings and weights, not a problem to duplicate the point distributors timing curve.As far as air cleaner mods aftermarket or creative engineering.

joe_padavano

Let's back up. First, do not confuse "HEI", which is GM's specific coil-in-cap design, with a generic electronic ignition system like a Pertronix.

Second, any ignition system MUST be tailored to the specific application. Saying that HEI will hurt performance because it doesn't have the correct advance curve is not a correct comparison, since a points distributor with an incorrect advance curve will also hurt performance. One has to assume that the advance curve will be tailored to fit the specific application. Note that even a stock distributor may not have the correct advance curve for today's gasoline.

Third, GM introduced HEI specifically in response to federal requirements that cars must meet emissions requirements after 50,000 miles with no maintenance whatsoever. That's why you have platinum spark plugs also. The higher voltage of the HEI coil was intended to overcome the problems of fouled plugs long overdue for a change. The electronic triggering was intended to overcome the problems of burned points. Neither of these provides a performance improvement over a properly maintained point style ignition system.

Fourth, the only electronic ignition systems that do provide a performance advantage over points are computer-triggered systems that can individually vary timing on specific cylinders. That is not the case for either HEI or generic points replacement systems.

Bottom line is that other than reducing maintenance, there is no performance benefit to a simple electronic ignition conversion.

Koda

Points and springs and weights work well in stock settings. If you want more, then maybe you need more. I did enjoy Eric's pun. FWIW, I find maintenance on points to be fairly low, I haven't messed with my 72's in 12 years and 18k miles, granted that's a Chevrolet. The 442, it needed new points, and got them, and hasn't had a problem since from them (has other problems though.)

Small side story. My old man bought a 71 Corvette. My granddad then bought this 72 Monte Carlo. He got a set of big weights and weak springs to put on the Monte Carlo, which gave some performance upgrade. So, he gets a kit for my dad, and the Corvette already had that spec weights and springs. Got a little embarrassed.

I'll defer to the rest of you guys beyond my limited knowledge.

BlackGold

I'm interested in hearing opinions from people who know more about ignition systems than I regarding these two topics:

1/ At high RPMs (maybe north of 6000?), points bounce can become an issue. HEI solves this, right? Or does it have it's own problem triggering reliably at high RPM?

2/ At high RPMS, the 30-degrees of dwell on a points distributor becomes too short in terms of absolute time to fully saturate the coil, which means you may get weak or no spark. I thought I read somewhere that HEI has a variable, RPM-dependent dwell time and that this allows it to generate a more relliable spark at high RPM. Or is this not true?

joe_padavano

You are correct on both counts. This is why high performance points and dual point distributors were developed. Unfortunately, the stock HEI ignition module and coil also have problems at high RPMs, but aftermarket parts fix this. And of course, a stock Olds motor isn't going to be spending a lot of time north of 6 grand, especially a BBO. Now, if you've got a modified setup, then clearly the ignition system has to be compatible with the intended operating range (as do the cam, lifters, valve springs, etc, etc). Many folks think that simply swapping an HEI or other electronic ignition into their otherwise stock motor will increase HP. It won't, unless the points are shot.

Allan R

If this is just for a daily driver, I don't think it's worth it. If you do change over, be advised you will no longer be able to use your stock air cleaner unless you:
a) use a spacer to lift the air cleaner high enough at the back to clear the HEI, or
b) modify the OEM air cleaner to fit.

I changed my 72 to HEI and don't notice any difference in performance or mileage than when it was stock distributor. I also don't drive it hard.

If you have performance/racing plans for the car, the rest of the guys posting information will give you some great expert advice.

droptopron

JMO but a big bulky HEI distributor looks ugly & doesn't go with older cars. I'd rather do a Pertronix / Crane XR-i.

steverw

I have a friend back home that really understands how to set up a distributor and carb. He built the carb on my Vette, its a Holley, and my 73 Trans Am.... Quadrajet. He recurved the MSD dist on the Vette, and an HEI for the TA. Both cars after he finished had a night and day difference in performance.
I recently sent my points dist from my Olds to Distributor Dave, he converted it to HEI and put the module in an original Olds UHV ignition box. Im not looking for big performance gains from it, but just good reliable low maintence performance while looking stock. Hope it works good!
Anyway if you want HEI thats one way to get it and still look like a points dist.

Fun71

That was a very good synopsis of HEI vs. points and exactly matches my experience of changing from a well-maintained and set up points distributor that was good to 6,000 RPM to a recurved HEI.

This is a very good point. I initially set up the HEI to have the same initial + mechanical advance as the original points distributor (10 initial + 24 mechanical), but eventually ended up using the original HEI settings of 18 initial + 18 mechanical. The higher initial advance gave a smoother idle, more idle vacuum, and the RPM didn't drop when I turned the AC on (this has been attributed by many folks to higher idle torque).

You can achieve the same higher initial/lower mechanical advance with points fairly easily by modifying the stops for the mechanical advance limit.

Overall, I would say if you don't presently have any distributor issues I wouldn't do the swap. You can get points with a stiffer spring for higher RPM and a higher output coil for stronger spark on your points distributor if you need bit of a a performance boost.

jag1886

I have had Pertronix in the stock dist and an OE HEI upgraded with the Pertronix kit they make for it, there HEI kit comes with every thing to tailor the advance curve pretty much anyway you want. Both work very well.
I like the Pertronix in the HEI best because if there is a module problem on the road you can pick up a stock module at almost any auto parts store, if something stops working in the unit that goes in the stock dist you are up the creek, I know someone will say just throw the points back in in that case but that doesn't work as the Pertronix specifies that you run 12 volt to there system and that will cook points as fast as you can put them in.
I see no cons at all to upgrading to an HEI.
One thing I found the works very well for getting 12Volts for the ignition is to use a common relay and run a 10 gauge wire from the horn relay for power and use the stock resister wire cut down as close to the fire wall as possible and replaced with a regular wire to trigger power for the ignition.

MDchanic

Or, you could save yourself a bit of work, trigger that relay with the resistor wire without tracing and cutting it, and then be able to drop in your set of points and reconnect your resistor wire on the side of the road in case of an electronic failure, and be on your way in minutes, thus saving yourself a trip to the auto parts store.



- Eric

1964f-85

Summit sells a complete, new HEI distributor. One of the best mods i've made to my motor.

Larrys'66

I have read about the Petronix and Crane conversions along this thread. Has anyone used the Accel points replacement kit? We just installed one in the stock distributor and I am a couple months away from testing the car. The mounting of the kit was okay, I hope it holds together.

Larry

Nasty455

Ive replaced multiple points dizzy's, easy upgrade for under $100.
I bought mine rebuilt from federated.
Have 0 problems with ignition since the upgrades.

jag1886

He's the exact one one I knew would say that.
No crap intended I just know what your answer is going to be on this subject.
I believe it would be easier to pull the 2 screws and change the module than to convert back to points and rewire the ignition on the side of the road (I carry a spare module everywhere I go so I don't have to go to the parts store).

BILL DEMMER

my vote is for a properly set up hei system, period.


bill

MDchanic

Well, at least nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...





An entirely fair comparison.

As a Certified Cheap SOB, I am not about to shell out $40 (if I recall correctly) for a spare module, but I am happy to grab a spare set of points and condenser (free, or, if a new set, a buck a piece for NOS Delco from a flea market) from "the pile" and throw it in the glove compartment. I also have no compunction about replacing points and condenser on the side of the road, as I 've doen it before, and I always carry a timing light and dwell meter.

To each his own, as they say, as long as you admit that HEI can fail as well as any other system (it's happened to me), we have nothing to argue about.

Incidentally, just to make everyone crazy, I actually have a Crane Cams pickup in my Delta (and a set of points in my glove compartment). It's there because it came already installed when I bought this motor, and I'm very happy with it. I wouldn't have gone out of my way to install it, but I sure am not going to go out of my way to pull it out, either.

- Eric

clajohol

I've been running an MSD digital setup for a full week now (not long, I know) on my 1969 Cutlass 350. With the help of "oldcutlass" I got it timed and tuned almost perfect. Car starts faster, idles smoother, and runs better than ever.


I tried original points, pertronix pick up, and another cheap HEI setup (I forget the brand) but had problems with all.


Cost was kinda high at $650 for the MSD setup (wires, coil, mechanical advance distributor, and digital controller) and I cannot say anything regarding reliability, but for now I am happy with the change. Just after a few drives, I don't feel I have to worry about the car not cranking or that it will die at the next stop light.