Pay Pal fraud, be carefull
November 20th, 2018, 01:11 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brazil Indiana
Posts: 11,503
Pay Pal fraud, be carefull
Just an FYI, I will no longer take Pay Pal other than an ebay purchase. I would consider it only if you are willing to pay as a friend or family where you have no protections from Pay Pal. If you agree to friend or family and I get it as regular payment I will refund the money and keep the goods till another form of payment is made.
I sold an engine for local pickup only to a guy in PA and got a deposit. After it was pulled from the car and mounted on a pallet he was going to send me the rest of the money and the agreement was that he had to have it picked up by the end of September. He never followed through and never heard from him again. I even emailed him but he would never get back to me. I give him to the end of October anyway just to be nice and then listed it again. Today he filed a claim on Pay Pal that I never shipped the engine. I attached the original agreement that it was local pickup and that this was a deposit to hold the engine till the end of September. It also said that he was responsible for pickup or having a shipping company pick it up by that time. I did offer to drop it off at a Fastenal if he chose that method.
Pay Pal said that I have to provide a tracking number that I shipped it or they would give him his money back. They said that they do not care what is in the purchase agreement (or email). I asked them what would have happened if he paid the full amount and picked it up himself as I would not have a tracking number in that situation either. They said that their policy would have given the full amount back to him in that situation because I have to have a tracking number. I would have been out the money and engine if he picked it up and claimed I didn't ship.
If you take payment by Pay Pal for a local pickup be VERY careful! All they have to do is claim that you did not ship it and they get their money back. You also need to keep the tracking numbers for ANYTHING you ship because 4 months later they can still do the same thing and get their money back without a tracking number. I talked to a guy on the phone from Pay Pal for a long time over this and said it happens all the time. People loose the tracking number so the buyer gets his money back. He even said that it happens all the time that someone will ship with USPS and not even get a tracking number and when the person gets the package with no tracking they already know they can get the money back. He did say that it is different with eBay and that you are protected better there.
I am just glad I am not out the engine. Only the time that the 250 deposit was for.
I sold an engine for local pickup only to a guy in PA and got a deposit. After it was pulled from the car and mounted on a pallet he was going to send me the rest of the money and the agreement was that he had to have it picked up by the end of September. He never followed through and never heard from him again. I even emailed him but he would never get back to me. I give him to the end of October anyway just to be nice and then listed it again. Today he filed a claim on Pay Pal that I never shipped the engine. I attached the original agreement that it was local pickup and that this was a deposit to hold the engine till the end of September. It also said that he was responsible for pickup or having a shipping company pick it up by that time. I did offer to drop it off at a Fastenal if he chose that method.
Pay Pal said that I have to provide a tracking number that I shipped it or they would give him his money back. They said that they do not care what is in the purchase agreement (or email). I asked them what would have happened if he paid the full amount and picked it up himself as I would not have a tracking number in that situation either. They said that their policy would have given the full amount back to him in that situation because I have to have a tracking number. I would have been out the money and engine if he picked it up and claimed I didn't ship.
If you take payment by Pay Pal for a local pickup be VERY careful! All they have to do is claim that you did not ship it and they get their money back. You also need to keep the tracking numbers for ANYTHING you ship because 4 months later they can still do the same thing and get their money back without a tracking number. I talked to a guy on the phone from Pay Pal for a long time over this and said it happens all the time. People loose the tracking number so the buyer gets his money back. He even said that it happens all the time that someone will ship with USPS and not even get a tracking number and when the person gets the package with no tracking they already know they can get the money back. He did say that it is different with eBay and that you are protected better there.
I am just glad I am not out the engine. Only the time that the 250 deposit was for.
November 20th, 2018, 03:25 PM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 887
Just an FYI, I will no longer take Pay Pal other than an ebay purchase. I would consider it only if you are willing to pay as a friend or family where you have no protections from Pay Pal. If you agree to friend or family and I get it as regular payment I will refund the money and keep the goods till another form of payment is made.
I sold an engine for local pickup only to a guy in PA and got a deposit. After it was pulled from the car and mounted on a pallet he was going to send me the rest of the money and the agreement was that he had to have it picked up by the end of September. He never followed through and never heard from him again. I even emailed him but he would never get back to me. I give him to the end of October anyway just to be nice and then listed it again. Today he filed a claim on Pay Pal that I never shipped the engine. I attached the original agreement that it was local pickup and that this was a deposit to hold the engine till the end of September. It also said that he was responsible for pickup or having a shipping company pick it up by that time. I did offer to drop it off at a Fastenal if he chose that method.
Pay Pal said that I have to provide a tracking number that I shipped it or they would give him his money back. They said that they do not care what is in the purchase agreement (or email). I asked them what would have happened if he paid the full amount and picked it up himself as I would not have a tracking number in that situation either. They said that their policy would have given the full amount back to him in that situation because I have to have a tracking number. I would have been out the money and engine if he picked it up and claimed I didn't ship.
If you take payment by Pay Pal for a local pickup be VERY careful! All they have to do is claim that you did not ship it and they get their money back. You also need to keep the tracking numbers for ANYTHING you ship because 4 months later they can still do the same thing and get their money back without a tracking number. I talked to a guy on the phone from Pay Pal for a long time over this and said it happens all the time. People loose the tracking number so the buyer gets his money back. He even said that it happens all the time that someone will ship with USPS and not even get a tracking number and when the person gets the package with no tracking they already know they can get the money back. He did say that it is different with eBay and that you are protected better there.
I am just glad I am not out the engine. Only the time that the 250 deposit was for.
I sold an engine for local pickup only to a guy in PA and got a deposit. After it was pulled from the car and mounted on a pallet he was going to send me the rest of the money and the agreement was that he had to have it picked up by the end of September. He never followed through and never heard from him again. I even emailed him but he would never get back to me. I give him to the end of October anyway just to be nice and then listed it again. Today he filed a claim on Pay Pal that I never shipped the engine. I attached the original agreement that it was local pickup and that this was a deposit to hold the engine till the end of September. It also said that he was responsible for pickup or having a shipping company pick it up by that time. I did offer to drop it off at a Fastenal if he chose that method.
Pay Pal said that I have to provide a tracking number that I shipped it or they would give him his money back. They said that they do not care what is in the purchase agreement (or email). I asked them what would have happened if he paid the full amount and picked it up himself as I would not have a tracking number in that situation either. They said that their policy would have given the full amount back to him in that situation because I have to have a tracking number. I would have been out the money and engine if he picked it up and claimed I didn't ship.
If you take payment by Pay Pal for a local pickup be VERY careful! All they have to do is claim that you did not ship it and they get their money back. You also need to keep the tracking numbers for ANYTHING you ship because 4 months later they can still do the same thing and get their money back without a tracking number. I talked to a guy on the phone from Pay Pal for a long time over this and said it happens all the time. People loose the tracking number so the buyer gets his money back. He even said that it happens all the time that someone will ship with USPS and not even get a tracking number and when the person gets the package with no tracking they already know they can get the money back. He did say that it is different with eBay and that you are protected better there.
I am just glad I am not out the engine. Only the time that the 250 deposit was for.
Feel free to contact Pay Pal for further information on the differences in services and the protection afforded.
I had pay Pal's representative on the phone for at least an hour and he withstood a vigorous cross examination.
November 20th, 2018, 03:36 PM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 887
In addition, always request a tracking number from the seller when sending goods and services from PayPal.
Further, before the sale, request that the seller identify the current date, perhaps from a newspaper and identify the photograph's of your intended purchase with as an example "Classicolds.com.
Identifying the date and Classicolds.com will minimize a seller from sending a photographed item copied for which the seller doesn't even own to sell.
Further, before the sale, request that the seller identify the current date, perhaps from a newspaper and identify the photograph's of your intended purchase with as an example "Classicolds.com.
Identifying the date and Classicolds.com will minimize a seller from sending a photographed item copied for which the seller doesn't even own to sell.
November 20th, 2018, 03:49 PM
#5
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brazil Indiana
Posts: 11,503
I had a similar issue with a scammer. PayPal advised me that under no circumstances ship or receive under PayPal's "friends and family.". Friend's and family provides little or any protection. PayPal advised me to send or receive using only " goods and services." This provides the greatest security and, according to Pay Pal, they will back you up in the event of a claim. Pay Pal's "Goods and services" requires a fee that the seller or the buyer must pay.
Feel free to contact Pay Pal for further information on the differences in services and the protection afforded.
I had pay Pal's representative on the phone for at least an hour and he withstood a vigorous cross examination.
Feel free to contact Pay Pal for further information on the differences in services and the protection afforded.
I had pay Pal's representative on the phone for at least an hour and he withstood a vigorous cross examination.
November 20th, 2018, 04:01 PM
#6
MOTORHEAD
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: minnesota USA
Posts: 6,619
Pay pal only protects the buyer not the seller in this situation. If I get money as friend then the buyer has no power to go back on me. I will not commit fraud so they would be safe with friends and family. If they will not buy it by my terms then no deal. I can understand someone not willing to pay as a friend and I am ok with that, they just will not gets goods from me like that any longer. I am considering getting rid of my Pay pal completely after this. If they can't use an email that backs me up 100% then I would prefer not doing business with them.
I went thru paypal hell
they have already taken enough of your money
HEY MISTER ERIC
AND FRIENDS
HAPPY THANKSGIVING
November 20th, 2018, 04:34 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 887
Pay pal only protects the buyer not the seller in this situation. If I get money as friend then the buyer has no power to go back on me. I will not commit fraud so they would be safe with friends and family. If they will not buy it by my terms then no deal. I can understand someone not willing to pay as a friend and I am ok with that, they just will not gets goods from me like that any longer. I am considering getting rid of my Pay pal completely after this. If they can't use an email that backs me up 100% then I would prefer not doing business with them.
I am not endorsing PayPal. Fraud occurs daily over the Internet regardless of the credit cards submitted for payment.
Another thing we do, although on a different site, is submit the email address, contact information, etc to the site administrator. The administrator bans them from the site. It also helps to post your experiences, positive and negative, in the buyers/sellers forum. It may help to review the buyers/sellers forum to determine other members positive or negative salesor purchase experiences with someone in particular.
The bottom line unfortunately; be careful.
Last edited by twilightblue28A; November 20th, 2018 at 04:44 PM.
November 20th, 2018, 05:05 PM
#8
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brazil Indiana
Posts: 11,503
My understanding is PayPal protects the buyer or the seller using" goods and services." After a claim is investigated, PayPal will honor the claim. Always send the buyer an invoice by email using "goods and services." I agree. If the buyer will not agree with your terms move on. The disadvantage of Internet sales is fraud. I have had instances in which I have been asked to send payment to an email address that is terminated after the sale.
I am not endorsing PayPal. Fraud occurs daily over the Internet regardless of the credit cards submitted for payment.
Another thing we do, although on a different site, is submit the email address, contact information, etc to the site administrator. The administrator bans them from the site. It also helps to post your experiences, positive and negative, in the buyers/sellers forum. It may help to review the buyers/sellers forum to determine other members positive or negative salesor purchase experiences with someone in particular.
The bottom line unfortunately; be careful.
I am not endorsing PayPal. Fraud occurs daily over the Internet regardless of the credit cards submitted for payment.
Another thing we do, although on a different site, is submit the email address, contact information, etc to the site administrator. The administrator bans them from the site. It also helps to post your experiences, positive and negative, in the buyers/sellers forum. It may help to review the buyers/sellers forum to determine other members positive or negative salesor purchase experiences with someone in particular.
The bottom line unfortunately; be careful.
November 20th, 2018, 05:10 PM
#9
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 887
November 21st, 2018, 05:32 AM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 10,282
Paypal only has as much power as you give them. My account is set up to a checking account that usually has very little in it. They can't take what isn't there.
This is the problem with corporations. Any individual with power over someone else either needs to be readily available to be voted out of office, or shot, when they violate that power. It's the American Way.
This is the problem with corporations. Any individual with power over someone else either needs to be readily available to be voted out of office, or shot, when they violate that power. It's the American Way.
November 21st, 2018, 06:42 AM
#11
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brazil Indiana
Posts: 11,503
Paypal only has as much power as you give them. My account is set up to a checking account that usually has very little in it. They can't take what isn't there.
This is the problem with corporations. Any individual with power over someone else either needs to be readily available to be voted out of office, or shot, when they violate that power. It's the American Way.
This is the problem with corporations. Any individual with power over someone else either needs to be readily available to be voted out of office, or shot, when they violate that power. It's the American Way.
November 22nd, 2018, 11:50 AM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 887
PayPal fraud, be careful
My debit card is linked to PayPal. Normally, I keep a nominal amount in my debit card. I only add money to my debit card when I am using the card. Also, my debit card is not linked to my bank account. A purchase request is always declined if the account is not funded. Sad, but unfortunately the world in which we live.
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone
November 22nd, 2018, 02:01 PM
#17
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brazil Indiana
Posts: 11,503
My debit card is linked to PayPal. Normally, I keep a nominal amount in my debit card. I only add money to my debit card when I am using the card. Also, my debit card is not linked to my bank account. A purchase request is always declined if the account is not funded. Sad, but unfortunately the world in which we live.
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone
November 22nd, 2018, 02:54 PM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 887
I'm willing to get PayPal on the phone if you want to call. You may also want to ask for a PayPal Supervisor to go over your case.
An earlier poster, I'm sorry, I'm on a mobile phone and I can't see the the posters name, linked his checking account to PayPal and keeps his checking balance deliberately low. The bank charged him an an insufficient balance fee, because from the banks perspective, he didn't have sufficient funds to cover the purchase. An insufficient balance bank fee is better than the alternative. Lucky for him the bank didn't advance the fee to cover the purchase. If the bank advanced the funds, he would be responsible for the purchased amount to the bank.
November 22nd, 2018, 06:09 PM
#19
"me somebody" site member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,612
I don't post much here any more, but have to ask after reading your story - what are you out, exactly? You basically had to give him back his deposit, yes? And if you sell / already sold the motor to someone else, you would also have had to pull it anyway, yes? A contract that says a deposit is non-refundable (if that is what yours said) may not be enforceable in any case, Difference here is Paypal made sure you gave the guy's money back as opposed to him having to use some other means like small claims court or a lawyer (and even then getting a judgement is not the same as actually getting the money). Not saying he aint a jerk, or that he didn't waste your time, just that Paypal did exactly what they are supposed to do here, i.e. protect the person who sent the money, a-hole or not.
November 22nd, 2018, 06:35 PM
#20
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 887
PayPal provides no protection for the buyer or seller under friends and family.
PayPal provides protection for the buyer or seller under goods and services. Fees for goods and services are higher. Items must be shipped and have tracking number for PayPal to provide protection for the seller, in order to provide protection to the buyer and seller.
PayPal provides protection for the buyer or seller under goods and services. Fees for goods and services are higher. Items must be shipped and have tracking number for PayPal to provide protection for the seller, in order to provide protection to the buyer and seller.
November 22nd, 2018, 06:39 PM
#21
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brazil Indiana
Posts: 11,503
I don't post much here any more, but have to ask after reading your story - what are you out, exactly? You basically had to give him back his deposit, yes? And if you sell / already sold the motor to someone else, you would also have had to pull it anyway, yes? A contract that says a deposit is non-refundable (if that is what yours said) may not be enforceable in any case, Difference here is Paypal made sure you gave the guy's money back as opposed to him having to use some other means like small claims court or a lawyer (and even then getting a judgement is not the same as actually getting the money). Not saying he aint a jerk, or that he didn't waste your time, just that Paypal did exactly what they are supposed to do here, i.e. protect the person who sent the money, a-hole or not.
November 22nd, 2018, 06:54 PM
#22
"me somebody" site member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,612
Fair enough, but you also said you would no longer take Paypal other than an E-bay purchase. I suppose I can understand not taking it for items picked up in person but not shipped, but if you did ship and E-mail someone the tracking number, you could have it saved indefinitely in case they tried to scam you later. As for a buyer picking up it up in person, how about having them sign something stating they did so? Just spitballing here; regardless of Paypal policy, if they tried to scam you through Paypal later, the signature would be proof of attempted fraud (and a deterrent to them even trying). Your reaction not to accept anything other than the "friends and family" Paypal option may reduce the pool of people willing to buy anything from you. I wouldn't use that option no matter how good a person's reputation.
November 22nd, 2018, 07:25 PM
#23
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brazil Indiana
Posts: 11,503
Fair enough, but you also said you would no longer take Paypal other than an E-bay purchase. I suppose I can understand not taking it for items picked up in person but not shipped, but if you did ship and E-mail someone the tracking number, you could have it saved indefinitely in case they tried to scam you later. As for a buyer picking up it up in person, how about having them sign something stating they did so? Just spitballing here; regardless of Paypal policy, if they tried to scam you through Paypal later, the signature would be proof of attempted fraud (and a deterrent to them even trying). Your reaction not to accept anything other than the "friends and family" Paypal option may reduce the pool of people willing to buy anything from you. I wouldn't use that option no matter how good a person's reputation.
November 22nd, 2018, 07:47 PM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 887
Fair enough, but you also said you would no longer take Paypal other than an E-bay purchase. I suppose I can understand not taking it for items picked up in person but not shipped, but if you did ship and E-mail someone the tracking number, you could have it saved indefinitely in case they tried to scam you later. As for a buyer picking up it up in person, how about having them sign something stating they did so? Just spitballing here; regardless of Paypal policy, if they tried to scam you through Paypal later, the signature would be proof of attempted fraud (and a deterrent to them even trying). Your reaction not to accept anything other than the "friends and family" Paypal option may reduce the pool of people willing to buy anything from you. I wouldn't use that option no matter how good a person's reputation.
PayPal's protection relies upon the seller shipping, upon receipt of funds, and the buyer receiving the item. If the buyer claims non receipt, a claim is opened to establish whether or not the item was or was not received. Based on shipping confirmation, the claim will either be honored or declined.
The fact that PayPal paid a fraudulent claim does not preclude you from filing civil or criminal fraud charges. However, unless you reside in the same state as the sale, you will have difficulty prosecuting the case since you must appear personally and the amount of the dispute does not warrant the costs of the claim, assuming you can find the purchaser.
The scammers know the system. Again, always use PayPal's goods and services, ship your items, and retain your tracking number in the event of a claim.
PayPal protects the buyer and the seller, providing you comply with PayPal's policies.
I am not judging the personal experience expressed by the original poster.
In addition, I am not affiliated with PayPal. I am only attempting to inform members of PayPal's protection policies.
Last edited by twilightblue28A; November 22nd, 2018 at 08:15 PM.
November 23rd, 2018, 12:34 PM
#26
Olds Fever
Join Date: May 2011
Location: New York (Upstate)
Posts: 4,442
I no longer sell on EBay due to the payment restrictions,,, I also closed my PayPal account and only deal in USPS Money Orders (Domestic/International), Certified Bank checks, and Cash... So far it has worked quite well for me... The money order method is the most convenient since I receive the money order, cash it directly at any USPS and ship the package at the same time...
November 23rd, 2018, 12:43 PM
#27
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 887
I no longer sell on EBay due to the payment restrictions,,, I also closed my PayPal account and only deal in USPS Money Orders (Domestic/International), Certified Bank checks, and Cash... So far it has worked quite well for me... The money order method is the most convenient since I receive the money order, cash it directly at any USPS and ship the package at the same time...
November 23rd, 2018, 01:30 PM
#28
Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Poteau, Ok
Posts: 40,559
Buying and selling is always a crapshoot for both the buyer and the seller. I doubt there is one solution that will make both parties happy. Go with the one that makes you happy and if the buyer does not agree then they can shop elsewhere, its business.
November 24th, 2018, 03:17 PM
#29
Olds Fever
Join Date: May 2011
Location: New York (Upstate)
Posts: 4,442
November 25th, 2018, 08:31 AM
#30
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 2,790
I lost $250 on a US Money order deal. If I would have had paypal I would have got my parts or still had my money.
90% of the people have been great to deal with and this has made up for the few times I was not happy with the description or the one time I did not get my part.
I have had to take risk to move my project forward so to the great 90% A BIG THANK YOU !!!
Bernhard
90% of the people have been great to deal with and this has made up for the few times I was not happy with the description or the one time I did not get my part.
I have had to take risk to move my project forward so to the great 90% A BIG THANK YOU !!!
Bernhard
Last edited by Bernhard; November 25th, 2018 at 08:35 AM.
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