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Three mile island, Chernobyl, Fukushima, Kyshtym, Windscale. Some data for you. Just five, many, many more. And the cost of the accidents? Fukushima just keeps giving. Even to the massive ocean.
I lived in St George, UT. last year. Almost no rain, water and fires. You guys need to be more concerned about drinking water!
Since someone has to provide some data, here is why I sleep so well in the vecinity of a nuclear powerplant.
Well I know that Chernobyl was a completely different and archaic design. I don't know about the "others" but I don't lie awake at night worrying about a nuclear meltdown. If it happens, the prevailing winds will blow the radiation to So Cal anyway, so it's not a completely bad thing.
I lived in St George, UT. last year. Almost no rain, water and fires. You guys need to be more concerned about drinking water!
Warmer temperatures tend to bring higher precipitation levels. Colder temperatures do the opposite. Higher CO2 levels also increase the planet's biomass.
This will happen not only in California, but in other states. Internal combustion engine vehicles will go to the same place as TV's with dials and dinosaurs.
Last edited by twilightblue28A; August 27th, 2022 at 06:27 PM.
I live in Evansville, and there's many coal plants around here. I'd rather have a nuke plant.
I wouldn't want to live around a Soviet or a Japanese plant. US reactors are better. It's sad when people think they are the same.
Considering some of the daily event reports that came out of the Duke-Gibson Station, I understand. I finally concluded that either that station was managed and staffed by complete idiots or their communications guy didn't understand discretion.
The bad part was every screw-up they had affected every other plant on the Duke system. Gibson screwed up, the rest of us paid the price.
The Soviet reactor technology was/is outdated. The Japanese being an island nation could have foreseen tsunami conditions but rolled the dice it would never happen. Look to the French to learn how nuclear is done right.
This will happen not only in California, but in other states. Internal combustion engine vehicles will go to the same place as TV's with dials and dinosaurs.
LOL not in your life time😂 Remember there are Model T cars still on the roads. Tractors ,Combines, Diesel Train's Jet airplanes,Bull Dozers, excavators, Road Graders,Dump Trucks , Boats ECT ECT😂😂 Just to name a few!
At Fukushima G E was in the midst of re-designing of the moving the the back up generators to ABOVE the Ocean Flood Plane -
they were too late - bad original design and bad response to an issue they knew well about from day one on the design & build
1) Everyone seems to forget that CA passed a similar law mandating zero emission vehicles in 1990. That law required that by the year 2003, at least 10% of cars sold in CA had to be ZEVs. It was repealed shortly thereafter.
2) With the possible exception of the 2004-06 Ford GT, there hasn't been a new vehicle built this century that I have the remotest interest in owning.
3) The more EVs on the road, the more oil for the rest of us. Win-win.
EVs are far from zero emissions. The carbon footprint of manufacturing an EV is so much greater than a modern ICE vehicle, that given the mix of the current power source to charge EVs and lower range per unit of fuel, it would take 400,000 miles before the EV would realize a lower carbon footprint. And the batteries only last about 1/4 that distance, so until we find a realistic alternative to fossil fuel power generation, EVs are going to pollute more than modern ICE vehicles. But wait don't we have something called nuclear power?
EVs are far from zero emissions. The carbon footprint of manufacturing an EV is so much greater than a modern ICE vehicle, that given the mix of the current power source to charge EVs and lower range per unit of fuel, it would take 400,000 miles before the EV would realize a lower carbon footprint. And the batteries only last about 1/4 that distance, so until we find a realistic alternative to fossil fuel power generation, EVs are going to pollute more than modern ICE vehicles. But wait don't we have something called nuclear power?
California has been a leading indicator for many national social, legal and technology issues. Today’s ICE powered vehicles are on the way out. The unresolved questions are the pace of the transition and what the replacements will be.
The debates in this thread are comparable to those that took place when diesel electric locomotives were first introduced as competition for steam powered. Similar debates took place when HP 435 engineering calculators were introduced and soon replaced Post and K&E linear slide rules. The same thing occurred when aircraft circular slide rules were replaced by hand held flight calculators. Those using the technology to be replaced were dubious and resisted.
But, just because transportation power sources are evolving does preclude us from enjoying our vintage car hobby.
But, just because transportation power sources are evolving does preclude us from enjoying our vintage car hobby.
I think "evolving" is what needs to be debated (and has been). Electric vehicles are currently the most produced, not necessarily the most advanced technology. Why push something that is just a stop gap? All the resources being used to force EVs on the population would be better suited for advancing a more sustainable technology.
Oh, and Kalifornia is just a big hippie commune. They can fall off during the next earthquake, and I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep.
Don't confuse the reality of ZEVs with the legal definition. And let's be completely honest here, you can make the argument either way depending on what assumptions you make and how much of the entire live cycle you include in the analysis.
One parr of this whole electric vehicle issue that does not seem to get much press is how road maintenance and construction going to get paid for ? At Federal level (Interstates, etc) it comes out of the 18 cents/gallon fuel tax. Pretty much the same, but at a higher level for states and cities. In essence a user tax, that electric vehicles are getting a free pass on. That will have to be replaced, and if they cannot an easy was to have an ongoing tax on electric vehicles is that they will go the easy route, income and sales taxes.
Oh, please... this has already been addressed at the local levels. The annual vehicle registration for an EV is much higher than an ICE vehicle. If there are any state gov'ts that have yet to address this (doubtful), then those respective legislatures have not been doing their jobs.
Originally Posted by wr1970
Maybe a fault line should be more of a concern!!!
That was exactly my thought when Fukushima happened. I have zero issue with nuclear energy. As a matter of fact, my local power gen company (Consumers Power) sends me surveys from time to time, and I just happened to get one yesterday that I filled out. Many questions related to the type of dryer, stove, water heater, and furnace I have (the latter 3 are all natural gas). CP is asking their customers if they would be willing to switch to electric at any time in the future, and I prefer my stove and furnace to be gas-fired. They also had a spot at the end of the survey for free-form comments, and nuclear is one of the investments I said that I'd like to see them make. They have been decommissioning nuclear plants on our grid because natural gas is cheaper for them.
I read the article. Currently EVs have a larger carbon footprint, and like all the articles on alternative energy, it assumes we can clean up the energy grid which is necessary to change the equation. We can clean up the energy grid by building more dams, won't happen in the U.S. (think salmon). We can increase nuclear, won't happen (think Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Fukushima, Germany's dismantling of their nukes in favor of solar and wind-bet their sorry for doing that). I'm not anti hydro or nuke, but I don't believe there's the political backing or will. And then there's solar and wind which only yield 0 to at best 10 times the energy return. There are only so many photon which will hit a solar panel and so much wind crossing the blades of a wind mill. Not a viable option and a dangerous distraction in resources, research, and time left to avoid climate change Armageddon if you so believe. Fossil fuel yield 30 times and nuclear 100 times the energy.
"Oh, please... this has already been addressed at the local levels. The annual vehicle registration for an EV is much higher than an ICE vehicle. If there are any state gov'ts that have yet to address this (doubtful), then those respective legislatures have not been doing their jobs."
Jeff, no this have not been resolved. The Federal gasoline tax is 18.3 cents/gallon which flows into the Highway Trust Fund. In my state, the additional state tax is 19 cents/gallon. The payment formula for Instate construction is 90%Federal/10%State while on primary routes it is 80%/20%State. The HTF is already over- extended since the Federal gasoline tax has not changed since 1993, meanwhile CAFE standards and road construction costs have increased. There is no Federal registration on vehicles, so currently an electric vehicle contributes nothing to supporting road construction at the Federal level, 25% of all road construction in the US is paid for via the HTF.
"Oh, please... this has already been addressed at the local levels. The annual vehicle registration for an EV is much higher than an ICE vehicle. If there are any state gov'ts that have yet to address this (doubtful), then those respective legislatures have not been doing their jobs."
Jeff, no this have not been resolved. The Federal gasoline tax is 18.3 cents/gallon which flows into the Highway Trust Fund. In my state, the additional state tax is 19 cents/gallon. The payment formula for Instate construction is 90%Federal/10%State while on primary routes it is 80%/20%State. The HTF is already over- extended since the Federal gasoline tax has not changed since 1993, meanwhile CAFE standards and road construction costs have increased. There is no Federal registration on vehicles, so currently an electric vehicle contributes nothing to supporting road construction at the Federal level, 25% of all road construction in the US is paid for via the HTF.
I humbly stand corrected. HOLY SH*T there are a lot of states still lagging on this topic, which again displays the ineffectiveness of gov't. I have to watch my words here, but this is a bipartisan failure, especially within those states that have yet to do anything. One would (or should) reasonably expect that an additional state registration fee for an EV would have a portion of that fee allocated to the federal tax, and the other portion towards the state tax. The respective states should have the authority to collect this on behalf of the federal gov't. This certainly isn't difficult to calculate, and should come with the attachment of certain mileage ranges to ensure that a "fair share" is being paid. Each annual renewal of the EV would, could, and should include a review or certification of mileage from the previous year.
But, that would further derail sales that they are already trying to jam down your throat. EVs have to remain as attractive as possible until they get enough suckers buying in, then they can bend them over.
I humbly stand corrected. HOLY SH*T there are a lot of states still lagging on this topic, which again displays the ineffectiveness of gov't. I have to watch my words here, but this is a bipartisan failure, especially within those states that have yet to do anything. One would (or should) reasonably expect that an additional state registration fee for an EV would have a portion of that fee allocated to the federal tax, and the other portion towards the state tax. The respective states should have the authority to collect this on behalf of the federal gov't. This certainly isn't difficult to calculate, and should come with the attachment of certain mileage ranges to ensure that a "fair share" is being paid. Each annual renewal of the EV would, could, and should include a review or certification of mileage from the previous year.
It's even worse than that. Just this morning I was discussing this with my co-worker and he said his EV registration is discounted to $18 per year, so he pays much less than if he had an ICE vehicle.
We have the same decree in Aus, no new petrol cars sold after 2035 ish. Only EV's, hydrogen, fusion, a combination or whatever is new by then.
Does not include sale of used vehicles, what your driving at that time, whether you want to or are restoring at that time, or whatever you have in your garage.
Petrol cars won't be banned, you'll just have to get a second mortgage to afford the petrol..
Won't these lofty bans by wealthy politicians drive UP the price of used cars in 2035, making cars increasingly unaffordable to the less fortunate?
Will people in these police states be able to buy a new or used gas engine-car from another state, and register it in the police state in 2035?
Does anyone resent being forced by government into buying far more expensive, less convenient cars in the name of improving the climate, when it'll achieve little more than making politicians look good in media?
Does anyone believe this won't progress into the banning of gas and diesel trucks, home generators, other small engines, and God knows what else?
What happens during long power outages, like those due to a hurricane? How does an electric utility respond to massive power outages when they can't charge their own cars and trucks?
Can these cars be charged with a portable home generator, or must it be a big, expensive whole house generator? Will home generators of any size be banned by the elites, all of whom probably already have expensive whole house generators, and expensive solar charged batteries?
Providing for the health, safety and general welfare of citizens is a fundamental purpose of government. For examples, asbestos and cigarettes also began their respective uses as legal products without obvious adverse health and safety consequences. In time, science exposed these products as having adverse health, and even deadly consequences, not only to the individual user, but to other persons exposed to their clothes (asbestos) or secondary smoke. It was a tortured process, but government rightfully intervened to protect the general public from these hazardous exposures. Even in these cases, some protested any government action based upon claims of infringement of individual rights, government over reach, etc. With respect to the consequences of the use of the ICE, we are in the early stages of a rerun of the same play.
Last edited by Tri-Carb; August 31st, 2022 at 04:46 AM.
Providing for the health, safety and general welfare of citizens is a fundamental purpose of government. For examples, asbestos and cigarettes also began their respective uses as legal products without obvious adverse health and safety consequences. In time, science exposed these products as having adverse health, and even deadly consequences, not only to the individual user, but to other persons exposed to their clothes (asbestos) or secondary smoke. It was a tortured process, but government rightfully intervened to protect the general public from these hazardous exposures. Even in these cases, some protested any government action based upon claims of infringement of individual rights, government over reach, etc. With respect to the consequences of the use of the ICE, we are in the early stages of a rerun of the same play.
Even if one believes in the global warming hysteria spread by our power hungry politicians and media, we still must ask: What is the cost?
Global warming is now generally accepted by the scientific community. Even fossil fuel producers now accept this as fact. Via weather, the adverse consequences of this phenomenon are regularly playing out in front of all of us. If the causes of global warming are not addressed, the survival of life on our planet are at stake. That is the higher of the two costs in play.
Last edited by Tri-Carb; August 31st, 2022 at 05:08 AM.
Not everyone accepts the hysteria bandwagon, the flames of which are fanned by power hungry politicians and media people. This changes the perspective on the cost imposed on everyone, Rich, poor, or in between.
August 27th, 2022, 05:28 PM
